I think you’re misunderstanding what feminists mean when they say, “all men can be rapists”. It’s alright, I used to be in your shoes too, sometimes people are just bad at explaining themselves, so lemme try and explain my understanding of the statement.
They’re not saying that men are rapists, what they’re trying to say is that men have been trained to pursue relationships in a way that can be coercive and can lead to rape without the man realizing he’s doing anything wrong (I’ll go into how a man could “”“accidentally”“” rape someone near the end).
A good example of this is “Baby, it’s cold outside”. The song is about a man trying to convince a women to stay the night with him. The song takes the form of the woman finding reasons to leave, while the man finds reasons for her to stay. This was because, at the time, it was considered improper for a single lady to stay the night with a gentleman who’s also single; they might get up to something, the horror!
Now, the song portrays this coersion as being possibly consensual; that, in the context of the song, the woman might want to stay, but feels compelled to go through the list of reasons she should leave so it isn’t “improper”. However, if you’re engaging in roleplay like that, you need to set clear boundaries before you do, otherwise you risk someone getting hurt. Furthermore, standards have changed. It’s no longer improper (in most places) for a woman to spend the night at a man’s house, nor is it acceptable to try and convince a woman (or anyone for that matter) to sleep with you if they’ve said “no”. Again, it is coercive, and you cannot derive consent from coersion unless it was clearly defined beforehand as part of role-play (consent can also be revoked, if someone tells you “stop”, you stop).
Despite that, cultural momentum means that many young men are still taught that if a woman says “no”, that just means you need to give her a better excuse to say “yes” (“she’s just playing ‘hard-to-get’”).
You might be able to see how this is a bad thing, yes?
That is what I believe they’re referring to. It’s not that they think every man is a rapist just waiting to strike, it’s that most men have been trained to “just try harder” if their lady friend says “no”.
Feminists dont say things like “all men are potential rapists”, save for those who also say “all women are potential rapists.”.
An actual (traditional) feminist would say something like “society encourages rapy behavior from men”, which is functionally the same but rhetorically a far different animal. Women and men who say that men are categoryly dangerous are also implicitly telling boys that they are bad just because they are boys.
Sexist statements about how women are good and men are bad isnt feminism, it’s just sexism in disguise.
I’m not a feminist (in the context of this discussion) and even I would say men are far more inclined biologically and culturally to engage in rapey behaviour. To the extent that rapey behaviour goes against our other human values (that men also hold and fight to protect) then that IS something you could say is “bad” about maleness. Same as aggression. It’s self evident the males of species are more inclined to physical violence. But such inclinations are overcome by good parenting and good society. But they very much exist. Look at pretty much every other mammal species to see how biology operates.
Except that it ISNT self-evident. There are plenty of mammals with no apparent bias as to which sex is more prone to violence, more if you exclude the minority of mammals where only one sex has a natural weapon.
You might have a slightly better case if we were just talking primates. But not by a lot.
Is there a particilar part of a lecture about chimpanzee mating habits that you think especially buttress sexism? If not, just referring to a whole video as a reference is just a gish galllp through citation.
No need to straw man, we were having a sensible discussion.
The abstract is all I was referring to.
Our closest primate relatives exhibit the same behaviours that primitive patriarchal human societies exhibited. I offer that as evidence that part of this terrible behaviour is biologically based.
Evidence is required if one wants to assert it is all cultural.
I like your example with that song. If we interpret the scene as both acting out the behaviour the’ve been taught, they are both reinforcing each others behaviours. Assuming that both wanted to be together but there was an established “dance” around it. They can only work together. What if one (and only one) of them had not done their part? If he hadn’t, she would have left, possibly feeling that he didn’t really want her to stay. If she hadn’t, she risks being labeled “easy”. In both cases, again if we assume they both actually wanted to stay and feel good about it, they don’t both get what they want.
So… if we now, as a conscious effort from society, are trying to get away from this bad system, it seems to me that the only way is a gradual de-escalation from both sides. It also seems to me that if we only tell men to never “pursue”, but do nothing about the “hard to get”-behaviour, then men who follow the new instructions or script will be left with no chance to meet someone.
What I think is missing from the discourse today is that it’s a hard sell to young men to change their behaviour, if doing so is punished by the same people asking them to change. We’re caught in a stalemate where we need to help each other simultaneously, with mutual understanding, trust, and care. In that very sensitive process, trying to move it forward by telling someone they are a potential rapist is probably just making men dig deeper trenches and refuse to listen. Some people want this, I believe. The conflict that lets you feel righteous anger and resentment. But it’s not helping.
"It also seems to me that if we only tell men to never “pursue”, but do nothing about the “hard to get”-behaviour, then men who follow the new instructions or script will be left with no chance to meet someone. "
I was with you 100% up to here. Women are well aware they don’t have to ‘play hard to get’ anymore. This has been a huge cultural shift over the last 70 years, acting like only mens behavior is changing is naive at best.
There is nothing like right or wrong, everyone live their life in different ways, different stokes for different folks, I just want to know the opinion of the people here in Lemmy. If someone want to hang out with a radfem it’s none of my business.
My question it’s, if you would date someone like that? Not what it’s or not a true femminist or if men are rapists or not, this is a men question in the first place. You as a man would date someone like that?
It’s hard to take your questions like this in unconditional good faith when you also post like this:
So would be kind enough to indulge me as to asking why you asked this question and what you were expecting from it? And what you’ll do with the resulting knowledge?
I should say though, I do like and appreciate that you’ve taken to asking questions and creating a space where people discuss, or at least fire off comments into the void.
I’m also posting down in the reply chain so it’s not as obvious a post. You’ll get the notification, but others will have to read and look a bit more.
I think you’re misunderstanding what feminists mean when they say, “all men can be rapists”. It’s alright, I used to be in your shoes too, sometimes people are just bad at explaining themselves, so lemme try and explain my understanding of the statement.
They’re not saying that men are rapists, what they’re trying to say is that men have been trained to pursue relationships in a way that can be coercive and can lead to rape without the man realizing he’s doing anything wrong (I’ll go into how a man could “”“accidentally”“” rape someone near the end).
A good example of this is “Baby, it’s cold outside”. The song is about a man trying to convince a women to stay the night with him. The song takes the form of the woman finding reasons to leave, while the man finds reasons for her to stay. This was because, at the time, it was considered improper for a single lady to stay the night with a gentleman who’s also single; they might get up to something, the horror!
Now, the song portrays this coersion as being possibly consensual; that, in the context of the song, the woman might want to stay, but feels compelled to go through the list of reasons she should leave so it isn’t “improper”. However, if you’re engaging in roleplay like that, you need to set clear boundaries before you do, otherwise you risk someone getting hurt. Furthermore, standards have changed. It’s no longer improper (in most places) for a woman to spend the night at a man’s house, nor is it acceptable to try and convince a woman (or anyone for that matter) to sleep with you if they’ve said “no”. Again, it is coercive, and you cannot derive consent from coersion unless it was clearly defined beforehand as part of role-play (consent can also be revoked, if someone tells you “stop”, you stop).
Despite that, cultural momentum means that many young men are still taught that if a woman says “no”, that just means you need to give her a better excuse to say “yes” (“she’s just playing ‘hard-to-get’”).
You might be able to see how this is a bad thing, yes?
That is what I believe they’re referring to. It’s not that they think every man is a rapist just waiting to strike, it’s that most men have been trained to “just try harder” if their lady friend says “no”.
Edit: if I’m wrong, feel free to correct me.
Feminists dont say things like “all men are potential rapists”, save for those who also say “all women are potential rapists.”.
An actual (traditional) feminist would say something like “society encourages rapy behavior from men”, which is functionally the same but rhetorically a far different animal. Women and men who say that men are categoryly dangerous are also implicitly telling boys that they are bad just because they are boys.
Sexist statements about how women are good and men are bad isnt feminism, it’s just sexism in disguise.
I’m not a feminist (in the context of this discussion) and even I would say men are far more inclined biologically and culturally to engage in rapey behaviour. To the extent that rapey behaviour goes against our other human values (that men also hold and fight to protect) then that IS something you could say is “bad” about maleness. Same as aggression. It’s self evident the males of species are more inclined to physical violence. But such inclinations are overcome by good parenting and good society. But they very much exist. Look at pretty much every other mammal species to see how biology operates.
Except that it ISNT self-evident. There are plenty of mammals with no apparent bias as to which sex is more prone to violence, more if you exclude the minority of mammals where only one sex has a natural weapon.
You might have a slightly better case if we were just talking primates. But not by a lot.
In context, obviously primates are more relevant to what I’m saying. Esp chimpanzees.
Yale if you are interested…
https://oyc.yale.edu/molecular-cellular-and-developmental-biology/mcdb-150/lecture-2
Is there a particilar part of a lecture about chimpanzee mating habits that you think especially buttress sexism? If not, just referring to a whole video as a reference is just a gish galllp through citation.
No need to straw man, we were having a sensible discussion.
The abstract is all I was referring to.
Our closest primate relatives exhibit the same behaviours that primitive patriarchal human societies exhibited. I offer that as evidence that part of this terrible behaviour is biologically based.
Evidence is required if one wants to assert it is all cultural.
I like your example with that song. If we interpret the scene as both acting out the behaviour the’ve been taught, they are both reinforcing each others behaviours. Assuming that both wanted to be together but there was an established “dance” around it. They can only work together. What if one (and only one) of them had not done their part? If he hadn’t, she would have left, possibly feeling that he didn’t really want her to stay. If she hadn’t, she risks being labeled “easy”. In both cases, again if we assume they both actually wanted to stay and feel good about it, they don’t both get what they want.
So… if we now, as a conscious effort from society, are trying to get away from this bad system, it seems to me that the only way is a gradual de-escalation from both sides. It also seems to me that if we only tell men to never “pursue”, but do nothing about the “hard to get”-behaviour, then men who follow the new instructions or script will be left with no chance to meet someone.
What I think is missing from the discourse today is that it’s a hard sell to young men to change their behaviour, if doing so is punished by the same people asking them to change. We’re caught in a stalemate where we need to help each other simultaneously, with mutual understanding, trust, and care. In that very sensitive process, trying to move it forward by telling someone they are a potential rapist is probably just making men dig deeper trenches and refuse to listen. Some people want this, I believe. The conflict that lets you feel righteous anger and resentment. But it’s not helping.
"It also seems to me that if we only tell men to never “pursue”, but do nothing about the “hard to get”-behaviour, then men who follow the new instructions or script will be left with no chance to meet someone. "
I was with you 100% up to here. Women are well aware they don’t have to ‘play hard to get’ anymore. This has been a huge cultural shift over the last 70 years, acting like only mens behavior is changing is naive at best.
There is nothing like right or wrong, everyone live their life in different ways, different stokes for different folks, I just want to know the opinion of the people here in Lemmy. If someone want to hang out with a radfem it’s none of my business.
My question it’s, if you would date someone like that? Not what it’s or not a true femminist or if men are rapists or not, this is a men question in the first place. You as a man would date someone like that?
It’s hard to take your questions like this in unconditional good faith when you also post like this:
So would be kind enough to indulge me as to asking why you asked this question and what you were expecting from it? And what you’ll do with the resulting knowledge?
I should say though, I do like and appreciate that you’ve taken to asking questions and creating a space where people discuss, or at least fire off comments into the void.
I’m also posting down in the reply chain so it’s not as obvious a post. You’ll get the notification, but others will have to read and look a bit more.