- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
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The Left and the Right feels like Feet Guys vs Cannibals chewing on a bunch of toes.
As a leftist feet guy who is regularly chewing on toes I can confirm.
“What is the charge? Eating a meal? A succulent Chinese meal?”
This is democracy manifest!
Tolerance paradoxically demands intolerance of the intolerant.
It was pointed out to me a while back that the paradox of tolerance is only a paradox if you consider tolerance to be a philosophical position.
In fact, we don’t treat it like that. We treat it as a social contract, in which context it is no paradox at all to say that if you aren’t tolerant then other people aren’t obliged to tolerate you in turn
This here - the social contract view needs to be widely adopted
Agreed. Respect for what is essentially the golden rule is the bare minimum to be accepted by a rational society.
The term paradox was used because it comes from the “so much for the tolerant X” instances during mid XXth century. It’s the incorrect assumption that tolerance is somehow a foundational principle of some ideology, mainly left, socialist and communist ideology; just because they were protesting intolerant policy and stances from the right. The right stupidly believes that this means that the left advocates for unlimited tolerance of everything as an extension of fundamental freedoms, like free speech and free thought.
This was at a time when the debate on the lawful limits of freedom in democracies was raging. In comes Karl Popper and produces the formal philosophical formulation of the paradox. He starts at freedom and demonstrates that in order for a free open and peaceful society to exist, then they must be tolerant, but, they must not held tolerance as a tenet, instead being intolerant of any intolerance. It is important as the first philosophical formulation of liberal democratic thinking. It actually distances itself from communism because, according to Popper, communism and even socialism will always end up in bloodshed, violence, and suffering.
The concept of social contract was not unknown to Popper, but it was not necessary for his argument to make sense. For, since Weber, it’s understood as a given that wherever humans happen to live in community, some form of social contract will exist. Popper is not concerned with the existence of the contract, but to argue about its content.
That realization was life-changing for me. It finally gave me the clarity to walk away from toxic relationships, knowing they were the ones holding back any real growth.
The only downside is that trying to explain this to someone intolerant just gets you labeled, quote, “a stupid science bitch who can’t make them smarter.”
science bitches are the best kind
smart is sexy!
It’s not really a paradox when you think about it. In fact, it’s absolutely necessary.
Yeah i originally was going to write “seemingly paradoxically” but it made it seem more like I was saying “seems to demand…” And I wanted to make sure it came across as a definite, if you know what i mean.
Specifically the lactose intolerant.
I have a theory about lactose intolerance. You now how humans in general just struggle with digesting lactose unless the body has built up enzymes over time. I think lactose intolerant people are just dairy addicts haha.
I’ll just leave this here… (see alt/hover text for TLDR)
Those are ok, they can stay.
Usually they tend to move around reaching for a bathroom :p
It’s Karl Popper time!
Curious. How does that work when someone is beating you with a baseball bat or robbing you?
You don’t tolerate it…? Is this supposed to be a trick question? Sometimes when you don’t tolerate something, you are largely powerless against it and it still happens. Sucks, but that’s life. You don’t have to roll over and present your balls to the bat though.
As MartianSands pointed out, tolerance is not a philosophy; it is a social contract. When intolerance breaks that contract, the tolerant are under no obligation to tolerate it.
Had kind of a similar conversation with my dad recently. “I’m sorry you feel that way.” “Well they’re cutting Medicaid, so we’ll see how that goes for you.”
‘I’m sorry you feel that way.’ He’s sorry you think people should have equal rights?
Your dad doesn’t have a political problem, he has a morality problem.
Even the non-apology “apology” is unacceptable!
I did call him out on that, for all the good it did.
It was actually about my job (I work for the federal government), but same issue. He, my mother, and my brother voted for something that directly impacts me.
There’s a guy up thread saying I shouldn’t take it personally, but how can I not? They’re the ones making jokes about how hard I don’t work.
Wow, a morality problem and an empathy problem, to their own kid no less. I’m sorry you’re dealing with that, and lessening contact (or cutting it) would be a perfectly understandable action.
Please remind us in four years what happens
If the Medicaid and social security things go through, it’ll be much sooner than that. My brothers and I paid for a new hvac system for their house last year, which gives an idea of the financial issue they are likely to face.
More often than not, MAGA tend to stab themselves in the back. They just don’t have the self-awareness for it.
Yeah now with trump them trans kids have to show them genituls at sports events.
What do you mean I don’t have insurance anymore? I don’t understand!
A lot are looking at things like COL increases and one party claims they’re gonna lower prices and lower taxes and they don’t think about all the benefits they get from certain policies that are likely to be reversed and seem to think the biggest government budget is foreign aid, so all you have to do is cut that to solve the problems.
Pretty much the level of thinking of these people.
But they’ll be happy about it if it hurts someone else they don’t like in the process.
Isn’t that the saddest thing? Imagine being motivated by hatred. Feels like such a shitty thing to live for.
Imagine having so little to be proud of in your life that you chose to side with the oppressors in order to feel some vague sense of accomplishment.
was thinking of saying the knife should be in the back but the artist is right. this is pretty in the front.
99% of partisan voters do this, unfortunately.
At least, that’s the case if you look back at the last eight years. It’s a testament to the grip that the rich have on the poor here that anyone still votes Democrat or Republican.
BUT, I agree 100%. If your politics are deliberately harmful to marginalized groups, it’s pretty fucked up to make the argument that “it’s just politics”.
Pretty much every damn thing is political.
“it’s just politics” is such an empty statement.
Among my tacklebox of electronic components is a small baggie of microswitches because of my politics. Right to repair and all that, I specifically keep a stock of switches to keep my old Logitech mice going rather than buy new mice. Everything is political.
Pretty much every damn thing is political.
“it’s just politics” is such an empty statement.
It’s so easy to ignore how one of Biden’s final acts as president was to deny Transgender Americans healthcare through TRICARE.
Anti-LGBT bills have been flooding state and federal legislatures, and only a handful of Democrats have been brave enough to oppose them.
I have called multiple democratic senators and representatives about the fact that employment and housing protections for transgender people have been stripped in Oklahoma - that it’s been a problem for the last 4 years. No one gives a shit.
I’ve got a TEACH grant that I did 3/4 years of before they made it impossible to continue teaching without moving to another state. I promised to teach in OK for 5 to get further financial incentives. I would love to be in a classroom but it is de facto illegal and several de jure things make that impossible.
No one has given a shit. No one gives a shit. We can get murdered, and our deaths might make the news, but then the state can cover it up (Nex, the trans woman in Grove). The Dems have left POC and LGBT people in the south to fight their States alone.
Sometimes they become selfawarewolves. Is there an instance like leopardsatemyface on lemmy?
Edit: yup [email protected]
My trumpet sister has wisely stopped praising her false god in my presence when they visit at least
Charisma increases by +10
I tried to support this artist on Patreon. Heard there were NSFW comics there. Well, yes, but mostly a creepy OnlyFans-esque collection of nearly nude sexy photos of the artist, with frequent calls for payment for explicit nudes.
(Edit from below, as I figure out what I’m trying to say) It’s a sort of emotional bait and switch. “Come support me, there’s nsfw comics.” “Ooh I love those, my wife loves those, I’m in.” “Whoops, actually there’s also these risqué photos. Maybe your wife will be ok with it, maybe not. You can choose to have the conversation if you want. But now I’ve handed you a problem, unless you want to just immediately unsubscribe. In which case I still keep the money but you get nothing. Thanks for your support!” (End of edit)
Only artist Patreon I’ve ever unsubscribed from for content reasons. (I’m married, intended to support an artist, not to gawk at an OnlyFans.) From what I can tell from kemono (Patreon content mirror - visit with Adblock on), she’s still doing it.
I’m genuinely not sure if I’m being too sensitive or if this is genuinely behavior that shouldn’t be supported. Comics like this one are really good. I’m torn.
It is perfectly fine that you don’t like the behaviour, but that doesn’t mean the behaviour isn’t valid.
I also think it is strange, but not something detrimental. You subscribe to her account, you get comics and nudes. I don’t see a problem with that, but I can understand if it’s problematic for you due to different surrounding circumstances.
It’s a valid point and complaint that they went to the Patreon page of a comic artist looking for comics, and got something entirely different to what they were looking for.
There’s a lot more porn on the Internet than good comic strips.
You have to pay at a certain tier to get the nudity. If you don’t, then you don’t get anything explicit.
It’s detrimental when low-effort, inane, late comics like the above get posted constantly and her rabid, parasocial-brain pay-masturbators proceed to harass any valid criticism.
Low-effort? Maybe, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. Inane? That’s a completely invalid argument and shows you’re just trying to be insulting. Everything else you say is true.
It is absolutely inane. You know what the poorly drawn, oddly-sized, barely present, not-even-bleeding knife-wound adds? Nothing. Who reading this requires a stabbing to understand the context? Nobody. How many months and from how many thousands of MAGA morons has she profited in advertising her titty photos with bland, humourless, safe comics? She could have had no knife and made it clear that yes even just supporting MAGA is stillbdetrimental to your “friend”. Or she could have leaned into her idea and had a knife-wound that actually looks like a knife-wound. Nope. Make it silly, take the edge off, keep it safe, please don’t unsubscribe if you’re not actually knifing transpeople then you’re probably fine.
Man, you have some weirdly strong feelings towards something you can just ignore and let other people enjoy.
that your comment is 2/1 is just dumb.
sometimes social media is stupid, all of those people who gave you downvotes for that are stupid
It could have just been the person who has now been banned from Lemmy.world and has been creating accounts to downvote me.
Pizzacake is incredibly popular, therefore there will be a crowd who vehemently defends every action. ¯\(°_o)/¯
I’m genuinely not sure if I’m being too sensitive or if this is genuinely behavior that shouldn’t be supported.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with that content existing, and being something people can pay for, but you’re also not being too sensitive for not personally wanting to pay that artist, if your surrounding circumstances would make the access to explicit content then seem a little unsavory in your particular case.
Ideally, that artist would let you pay for just the non-NSFW content, or simply send a tip/donation directly, instead of requiring the NSFW content to be bundled with any attempt at payment, but that doesn’t mean that offering NSFW content itself “shouldn’t be supported,” even if it’s not desirable in your case.
Ideally, that artist would let you pay for just the non-NSFW content
They do. I don’t know if this person just decided to grab the highest tier without reading or something, but the lowest tiers don’t have anything explicit associated with them.
It’s pretty hard to miss too. I just went there from the link in their comic:
“Character Cosplays” is the second item in the lowest tier, and includes like hand-bra photos and images that are clearly the first couple images leading into a strip tease.
It’s a sort of emotional bait and switch. “Come support me, there’s nsfw comics.” “Ooh I love those, my wife loves those, I’m in.” “Whoops, actually there’s also these risqué photos. Maybe your wife will be ok with it, maybe not. You can choose to have the conversation if you want. But now I’ve handed you a problem, unless you want to just immediately unsubscribe. In which case I still keep the money but you get nothing. Thanks for your support!”
Oh damn well I stand corrected
No worries. You did the right thing looking for details, and when my complaint was about sexual images, it’s reasonable to see the clearly sexual descriptions in the higher tiers and assume that was it.
Absolutely. If there was a set of tiers that had NSFW drawn comics and absolutely zero mention of any risqué photos, I’d subscribe again. “Character Cosplays” is in every tier and really shouldn’t be. (And should really be clearer that this includes like hand-bra photos and such. “Note: contains sexually suggestive photos of the artist” or something.)
She is within her rights, and so are you.
Ironically, this is valid version of the above comic’s invalid application of agreeing to disagree. Neither of you are hurting the other by having differing opinions.
If you haven’t already, you should send a message to the artist voicing your moral support but explaining why you can’t financially support her.
More power to them. And you did what you’re meant to do on the internet, “I don’t like that” leave and move on. Thinking about it and justifying yourself is a bit weird.
I think you’re being too sensitive tbh. The artist probably really needs the money if they’re doing onlyfans. Just let your partner see the what and why, and there shouldn’t be an issue.
I don’t care to support any only fans content. At the same time, I love the art the comic creator creates. I relate to your feeling of being torn
Most of the comics artist do NSFW on Patreon. It’s nothing too crazy. I guess. Like top of artist on r/comics make NSFW comics on Patreon.
I think you misunderstood, this was pictures of the artist naked, not erotic art.
Which is definitely not something most artists do.
I don’t want to see most internet artists naked. If she’s pretty and talented, then more power to her.
Oh didn’t know that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don’t know anything about this particular artist, but nude photography is super normal in the art world at large? I’m confused as to what makes nude photography ‘not art’ to you.
It seems like you might be purposely missing the point, which wouldn’t be a very cool thing for you to do, but I’ll treat it as though you are genuinely confused.
Nobody here is arguing that nude photography isn’t art. Nobody is arguing that the artist shouldn’t be able to make money selling that content as art. The point is that outside of patreon, there’s no sign of nude photography. Only once I support the artist on patreon do I see their nude photography. It should be clear what I will receive from the creator when I support them on patreon, and here it isn’t clear, I was given something I didn’t ask for. I understand I can just skip over it, but there are a bunch of reasons why I wouldn’t want NSFW stuff mixed in with my normal content feed, such as browsing at work or on the train. Plus, with a partner, if they see that and think that I am paying for someone’s only fans (or equivalent) it’s a difficult discussion to have. Sure, it will hopefully all end up being fine in the end with an understanding partner, but still, it’s not something I would have signed up for had I known.
I’m sorry, I think you meant to respond to another person. I was talking about Ilovethebomb statement of “this was pictures of the artist naked, not erotic art”, and wanting clarification on where that line is drawn in their mind.
Nobody here is arguing that the artist shouldn’t be able to make money selling that content as art.
I was 13 when mom graduated with a degree in fine art, so maybe I’ve just seen it more, but there are tons of people who think nude = porn and porn =/= art. I’m not saying you think like this, because I’ve never talked to you before, but the sentiment is super common in western culture at large.
There is a difference between nsfw drawings and nudes of the actual artist
Out of curiosity, what did they look like?
ಠಿ_ಠ
Didn’t see her Patreon or OF but She really look like IRL version of Comic Character.
Not every photo was like this, but the ones that forced my hand were clearly suggestive of a strip-tease. And that specifically is what I didn’t want in my Patreon feed, in between her NSFW comics (which I enjoyed!) and other pervy content creators and, you know, retro gaming and science YouTubers.
My wife looks at pervy stuff too, and we share links / peep at each other’s monitors, etc. And honestly she might be totally fine with it, especially if I explained it. I just felt like it wasn’t worth having an uncomfortable conversation with my wife over. It felt like an inconsiderate emotional bait and switch. “Hey Reddit, come to my Patreon for pervy comics.” … “Now that you’ve already paid, and unsubscribing would mean I keep the money and you get nothing … surprise, there’s also nearly-nude or hand-bra-type pics, that you can’t remove, with frequent reminders that the $50 tier gets full nudes. Now I’ve handed you a problem. Now you have to deal with this. Thanks for your support!”
I don’t think kemono has everything archived but you can see enough there to get a picture of what she’s been doing. And I want to take a moment to subvert that scummy call-and-response site spam pattern that gets used. I’ve only ever visited this site with ublock Origin on Firefox, so it could have the worst sort of pop up cancer and I wouldn’t know any better. If you visit, keep your shields up. But kemono seems to be a site that mirrors Patreon and other similar sites, via users contributing their logged in session keys and letting the site mirror whatever they have access to. I didn’t know about kemono dot Sierra Uniform until recently and I have no idea if references to it are kosher. But there you go.
I would not say you’re being overly sensitive. I think it’s frustrating that they don’t just have a separate patreon or OF for that kind of content.
I think I would be the same way tbh. Like I don’t care that they do it, but I defo wouldn’t expect it in the same place as art content. Although it’s allowed, I think I would do the same as what you did.
I’m genuinely not sure if I’m being too sensitive or if this is genuinely behavior that shouldn’t be supported.
Too sensitive.
If you’re trying to understand an artist then you’ve already failed.
“Stop being intolerant that I’m a fucking asshole!”
This is my attitude whenever someone complains about there being too much ‘politics’ in everything.
Everything touches politics, but we only notice it when it adversely effects us. The people who take as granted that politics is it’s own thing are usually the people who are the most privileged by it.
I think I can explain the bad taste the comic leaves in my mouth regarding politics (and generally a lot of the discussion). It’s not that everything isn’t politics, it’s that everything is being framed as “two-sided politics”, black/white, red/blue. An argument can be made that with “the system”(america), yes voting action can be viewed that way. But it’s subjugating the entire conversation 100% of the time.
For instance, what policy is this comic critiquing and bringing awareness too? It feels like the lowest effort-bottom of the barrel attempt at a political cartoon for the clicks and ragebait. It’s not calling attention to any individuals or organizations involved, it’s a satirical stabbing for communities that are really hurting.
Idk, I think it’s VERY SPECIFICALLY about trans rights, but I just can put my finger on why…
I’ll just blanket reply @[email protected] and @[email protected] here since it’s all basically the same response I’m getting with attempts at insults sprinkled in.
I guess I’m reiterating, “This is a shit comic that does nothing for anyone but the creator getting rageclicks.” It’s the difference between Dane Cook or George Carlin stand up, punching up or punching down, etc. “656 anti trans bills” (please actually link useful facts snowclown 1,2) This comic didn’t bring up a single one of them, or their authors or their districts where efforts could be made to make progressive movements.
but again, I’m critiquing the comic and it’s attempt at … being something? I suppose I feel it’s more harmful than helpful, helps incite more rage than awareness. It’s an absurd scenario in which a maga person looking at this “knows” they wouldn’t stab someone so they can shrug off the hyperbole (while still supporting politicians that undermine transrights). On the progressive side we just have bullshit political polarization.
There’s deeper conversations and fundamentals to get into which can be debated but irregardless my only gripe is “it’s a lazy comic taking easy swings at low hanging fruit that just further muddies the water instead of progressing anything”. I think if you’re going to be faux-edgy, you should probably stay out of making such direct political statement cartoons.
I think you actually don’t like the message of the comic, because if you didn’t like it or thought it was lazy, you would probably move on.
For me, this comic represents my lived experience. I have had people in my life literally say “It’s just politics” and call trans people sexually deviant pedophiles at the same time. And if you haven’t had that happen to you, good for you. But I like the comic because it is simple, short, and pretty good at conveying that feeling.
Sorry if that feels lazy to you, art is subjective, but I think the message of this is pretty fucking obvious because of its simplicity.
I try to reply instead of downvoting, healthier for discourse and sometimes opens up new perspectives from others. I also try not to abandon conversations (though I have hundreds in my inbox I haven’t gotten to).
I don’t appreciate the shift in trying to pin me with your own thoughts so probably best to end the chain, but I’ll still validate and not argue your experience because it is art (begrudgingly admitted) and you are human.
Eh, fair enough. I was a bit rude there, but the intent is that while I agree this isn’t a super complex piece of art, I don’t think it needs to be. I would even argue that by making the message as simple as possible, it does what it sets out to do quite well, which is to physically represent the emotions of the author. Maybe they don’t match yours, but that is the subjectivity of it. I know that I would be quite dismissive of other webcomics, but I would likely dismiss it for the subject matter, and not the quality. Webcomics tend to be a fairly simple medium, so I let a lot of things pass for it.
Anti Trans bills running totals
656 bills
49 states
13 passed
621 active
22 failed
I know the media will never report on most of this if any of it, but it’s no secret the party that currently has control of three branches of government, including the most blatantly corrupt supreme court in US history, is actively trying to make trans people illegal, illegal to exist, or to be recognized, illegal to be publicly trans, and legal to deny medical treatment towards.
I don’t blame you if you missed this movement happening right now, as it’s not widely reported, but it’s a huge problem and the cartoon is explicitly a MAGA republican stabing a trans person and calling it ‘‘just politics’’ and telling them to not take it personally.
Imagine the controlled opposition, aka the liberals, if they never mentioned or gave in to talking about trans people. because we know they don’t care. These people trans folk wouldn’t have been put in the crosshairs like they were. It’s like thanks, but no thanks. The more you help, the worse it gets. And we saw them turn tail real quick, especially when they know they need to recalibrate their messaging because the next election they are going to struggle to get people to vote. But at the end of the day, capitalism is unsustainable. The theatrics of our political Masters are just looking for the boogeyman, something to get upset about, to take away from the fact that the capitalist class are robbing us blind. The left wing needs to focus on only economics because from my experience it’s hard to tell rich people what to do.
Isn’t it totally obvious what the comic is critiquing? There are too many people out there who vote for racist parties that want to eliminate people in their social circle and that are totally butthurt when they get called out for that and are bitter when those people don’t want to have anything to do with them afterwards. “It’s just politics”
I agree. The bad taste is not that while not wrong per-se, it’s just reduces a complex issue into “red bad” while wholly failing to acknowledge that Democrats have been complicit in facilitating the Overton Window this far.
“Progressives” are really hard on the “REPUBLICANS DID THIS!” and never really pick up on the “and Democrats met them half way.”
This blue no matter who reduction hopes to hide liberalism is the slow road to fascism.
The problem isn’t meany racist MAGAts. It’s the entire system spending decades working overtly toward fascism with a bunch of clueless fucking rubes staring complacently.
“The real problem with this murder is that the police didn’t do enough to stop it. You should blame they police just as much, if not more, than the murderer.”
No, the murderer is to blame. Yes, you can criticise those that should have prevented it for not doing more, but the people actually doing the bad thing are worse than the people not stopping the bad thing.
If someone stole your wallet the person who stood there and watched it happen is not the person you should be focusing on.
Yes, they are part of the system. You’re so eager to disagree you don’t understand you’re making my point.
You all won’t be able to fix anything if you’re more focused on what feels good to yell about you can’t focus on the root cause.
Is the “just because we disagree on politics we can still get along” frame of mind generally a conservative thing? Because on one hand, it makes sense. On the other hand, I find it very difficult, for example, to look past the fact that some conservatives want to stop aid to Ukraine (as a Ukrainian living in the US).
human and civil rights aren’t “politics”
Everything is politics.
your mom is politics
Sure is!
Just wanted to say thank you. I never explicitly thought of it this way. Just that human and civil rights are important. I’m going to start framing it this way because it’s the truth.
If politics includes the realm of persuading enough people and institutions to adopt or forget laws and standards, however moral of immoral they are, then rights of any kind are political.
Rights aren’t given in society for nothing. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights were created following WWII in which we saw the greatest political conflicts in the modern, technological age. Civil rights, at least in the US, have taken many acts as well as background political pressure to get to where we are today, and this institutionalizing of equal rights among American citizens only started after the US Civil War, the only civil war that country had ever experienced at that point.
politics are very involved in how a government will treat human and civil rights… but these rights are intrinsic to humanity, aka inalienable, and exist without governments.
why not? What definition of politics are you using
not everything that a government can touch are politics.
politics involve how you decide what the government will do…
i dunno i explained it more in a different reply on this thread but ive got a lot of people trying to argue and i don’t want to keep repeating it…
I guess you’re right.
I was at a loss as to what to do when a few of my friends were expressing support for Trump, knowing that he plans on cutting aid to Ukraine (as well as other fucked up shit).
What can someone self identify as though, can I self identify as a specific race, species, nationality, etc… where does one determine where to draw the line?
Clearly its going to be an issue that leads to some disagreement as it is open to ambiguity. If anything can self identify as anything would that be the middle path?
Obviously it has real implications in reality as well, like grants and shelters that go towards a specific demographics that are disproportionately disadvantaged. If people can self identify then it is obviously ripe for exploit, and how do we police that outside of the same witch hunts the anti-trans people are on, so how do we solve this one?
where does one determine where to draw the line?
Short answer: By what the experts say, and they say transgender people should be treated as the gender they identify as. Period.
Long answer: A lot of PhDs did a fuckload of research over a century plus and showed that, yeah, gender is super fucking complicated and doesn’t map out to male/female based on your genitals at birth (let alone for the reason that, you know, maybe you might be born with a penis AND a vagina or ovaries AND testes or female chromosomes AND male genetalia, etc.), and if people get some simple gender affirmation, they live better and happier lives, and that applies to cisgender people, as well.
Easy answer: You can claim to be fucking anything you want. Who actually gives a shit? Let people be themselves if it don’t hurt anyone. What’s the problem with being a transgirl or a transboy? Why do we even have multiple bathrooms? That just seems to punish all sorts of people for no reason.
If you WANT to say transracial or transspecies or transnational is a thing, by all means do some research and prove it through studies and peer review. Until then, it is unlikely to be recognized the same way that transgender has because it has a lot of supporting evidence.
If you WANT to say transracial or transspecies or transnational is a thing, by all means do some research and prove it through studies and peer review. Until then, it is unlikely to be recognized the same way that transgender has because it has a lot of supporting evidence.
I want to play a game with you. You’re demanding evidence for something that some people have a lot of experience with, but most people don’t care to investigate. I wanna do the same thing.
I’ve decided that fish aren’t real. I want you to link a scientific journal article that says fish are real. Not one that presupposes the existence of fish in general, one that asks if fish actually exist and asserts an answer from evidence.
If you can’t prove fish are real, why should anyone have to prove otherkin are real?
Buuuuuuuut, if you really want scientific articles on otherkin…
https://czasopisma.uni.lodz.pl/qualit/article/view/8147
I think you misunderstood, but I’m not presupposing otherkin isn’t a thing. I am saying it doesn’t have the same type of intellectual backing as transgender experience does, so it isn’t treated the same. I think that is unfortunate, even if there are studies done as well as expressed experiences, especially within indigenous peoples (and you could argue that is part of the reason fewer studies are done on it.)
I’m not really here to debate whether fish exist because I know fish exist and I can drive to most lakes and find fish in them and I can go to a few museums and see fish remains and I can go to pet stores and find fish for sale and I can go to a grocery store and find fish to eat. Doing that same thing with people and their personal experiences is much harder since it’s more of a personal experience and not, you know, a visible phenomenon, and so it’s going to be harder to convince people a personal experience is real if it’s not their experience and especially if it’s not a common one.
Au contrare. I can go speak to otherkin right now. In fact, I’m in conversation with one about how the cartoon Generator Rex uses nanites as a parallel to the AIDS crisis. Otherkin quite clearly and obviously exist. I see otherkin much more often than I see fish.
Now, most people see fish more often, because most people are boring, but that’s no reason for disbelief. The point is that there’s little point proving something so non-controversial exists. Nobody cares. You won’t get a research grant for something so irrelevant.
Asking people to provide research studies for this kind of thing is absurd. The only reason all these studies on trans people exist is because the media politicises our existence. When you treat otherkin the same way, you’re politicising their existence too.
That’s a fair point. I suppose that does put onus on people to prove their existence and experience. I can see that as frustrating, and I didn’t intend on making that statement.
The issue at hand, however, is how the OP can determine that trans people even exist, and using the existence of studies is one that is easily acceptable to most people. If your argument is that there should be no need to prove identities so long as no one is harmed, then I believe you are arguing with the wrong person, since that same sentiment was already expressed in my original reply.
Taking your stance is fine to anyone that accepts that these identities harm no one, but that in itself is obviously in contention with too many people. I will argue the easier logic until that is fixed.
well at least you’re trying…
but, let’s not equivocate gender and species (sorry furries)…. or race….
but, race and gender are social constructs.
gender was redefined, in a scientific sense, by anthropologists, to reflect sex-attached roles in society, whereas biological sex refers to genitalia….
in humans at large, most cultures have at least two genders, attached to male and female sex. many cultures have more than two genders, and many cultures allow people to be any gender role they choose…
this ambiguity is WHY they needed a term for this other than sex.
like, why would being born male mean you’re only allowed to like things from a particular set. Allowed to like playing in mud and a little fighting… not allowed to play with dolls (which is play socializing and why women are more emotionally intelligent)… boys aren’t supposed to like certain colors, or certain clothes… or music… or have particular mannerisms… or cry….
but these are all rules imposed by society, they’re not inherent to the biological sex.so where do you draw the line? well, i’d start with: all social constructs you can be what you feel like you are.
race is a much more complicated social construct, given that america switched to race based slavery early on… but, race is completely constructed by society. there’s more genetic variation between african tribes than there is between “races” like caucasian and mongaloid or whatever antique racial term you want to use.
it’s just that we can quickly see a difference in regional adaptations (like skin color or eye shape).
in america, a half black person could act more like white culture or more like black culture and be somewhat accepted in either… in fact, white slave owners would commonly rape their own slaves in order to breed more slaves… and sell of their own children… every american black person (with a lineage here) is part caucasian, and vice versa…
irish, italians, and polish people used to be considered non-white but eventually became accepted as such… largely because you couldn’t immediately see a difference…
and race originally used to mean peoples that spoke different languages… like the spanish race and french race… it’s totally nuts….
race has been made real, as a social construct, but there’s no scientific basis for it….
Speciation begins when two different groups can no longer reproduce and create successful offspring… like say, pubic lice and head lice can reproduce and their offspring can reproduce but their claws aren’t good at grabbing either hair type, so they’re not successful and there’s two different species….
Race isn’t real, gender isn’t real… do what you want and enjoy yourself and just let other people enjoy themselves….
i’m just glad english doesn’t have gendered nouns like “oh a chair is female and a teapot is male”….
another confusing aspect with gender vs sex is the same word meaning different things in different contexts… like female gender vs female sex… but just default to calling people what they prefer and you’ll be fine.
some people will always be unreasonable but just try to be considerate and it’s all good….
oh and if someone insists that their “gender” is something invented like “dr@g0n fuck3r”, they’re a concern troll… (real example, spelled wrong to thwart searches).but, let’s not equivocate gender and species
No. Otherkin are valid. The social construct of species isn’t.
Asexual reproduction. Sapiens-Neanderthal hybrids. Tree grafting. Speciation is nonsense with no basis in empirical observation. The only reason it’s become an accepted paradigm in the scientific community is that the convenience outweighs the inaccuracy in a lab context. It doesn’t when we’re talking about otherkin. When we’re talking about otherkin, the cost of continuing to believe in the made up nonsense that is species is too high.
That’s really interesting about lice. I’d be curious how you deal with society trying to protect or enhance specific groups they deemed disadvantaged still, do we eliminate them and remove these labels entirely making then moot?
human and civil rights aren’t “politics”
You will agree that human and civil rights, such as the right to keep and bear arms, is not politics? If you disagree, why is your preferred civil rights not politics, but other’s preferred human and civil rights are?
what are and are not rights is a matter of philosophy
We really need a deadly plague that’s easy to vaccinate against.
That would be cruel, as it would cost countless innocent lives of those who cannot be vaccinated because of preexisting conditions, allergies or whatever.
I’d be interested in the cost analysis of lives saved from MAGA’s hate crimes vs lives lost to inability to vaccinate.
Fortunately it’s just daydreaming as no one has control of this runaway cart.
That, but the biggest losers here will be the children of anti-vax parents. They don’t deserve to die because their parents are idiots. Same goes with “faith” healing.
Their parents are the ones you’ll have the hardest time convincing of that truth.
I’ll take my downvotes, but while I agree with the sentiment in this particular comic I have no fucking interest in seeing shitty pizzacake and her no-punchline comics or her army of sycophants here on Lemmy.
I will never understand why some of you insist on bringing the garbage we left Reddit to escape over here to Lemmy. Let pizzacake have her tiny window of microcelebrity on reddit and please spare the rest of us this bullshit.
“Why can’t everyone else just hate the same things I hate!?”
Imagine being this worked up about a webcomic, shitty or otherwise.
Also “this worked up”, lol.
Just curious, exactly how worked up do you think a person must be to undertake the Herculean effort of making a drive-by Lemmy comment?
Yes clearly this is consuming the whole of my being.
I mean, you replied twice to my comment, to let me know you weren’t worked up, so…
Also stating
passivity in the face of decline has always been the preferable option. Protecting our sacred decorum is so much more important than maintaining a critical eye and standards
makes me think you’re taking it pretty damn seriously lol
Yeah boredom on a slow day at work can’t exist.
And my level of investment automatically invalidates any point I make right? Because that’s how discussions work, discredit and invalidate the arguer rather than the argument.
Cool interaction.
These people want Lemmy to be Reddit and don’t understand why that’s a problem. You are quite literally pissing in the chud winds. I upvoted you, but I do think you’re wasting your time outside of your initial comment.
So maybe consider channeling that boredom into something productive instead of tearing down something you don’t like, that has zero tangible impact on your life.
Anyway, you’re right this is not a great interaction, so take 'er easy.
And my level of investment automatically invalidates any point I make right?
You’re acting like their response was ever intended to be a thorough breakdown of your argument and why it’s wrong lol.
All they said was an exaggerated paraphrase of your comment for comedic effect and then wondered how you could get so worked up over this.
Yeah boredom on a slow day at work can’t exist.
I totally understand this. Putting way more effort into a comment than I need to because of a slow day at work is exactly what I’m doing rn lol.
But that’s not what’s indicative of you getting worked up. It’s the defensiveness and comments that read as bitterly aggressive.
I’ll take my downvotes, but while I agree with the sentiment in this particular comic I have no fucking interest in seeing shitty pizzacake and her no-punchline comics or her army of sycophants here on Lemmy.
I will never understand why some of you insist on bringing the garbage we left Reddit to escape over here to Lemmy. Let pizzacake have her tiny window of microcelebrity on reddit and please spare the rest of us this bullshit.
I’ll raise you one better and do a revision of your original comment.
I’ll take my downvotes… wait no, I probably shouldn’t start a comment off like this because it only shows I’m bitter that people don’t agree with me, let me start again.
While I disagree with the sentiment of @[email protected]’s original comment, I do think that there’s one thing we should be not be bringing over from Reddit. Gatekeeping.
I will never understand why some of you insist on bringing the garbage we left Reddit to escape over here to Lemmy. Let holier-than-thou gatekeeping stay on Reddit. Most if not all of us moved to this platform for its freedom from ads, algorithm manipulations and for more meaningful curation of our online interactions.
We should want this for all people, and that includes the people who post stuff we don’t like. Those people aren’t ruining Lemmy, they’re keeping it diverse, and exercising their right to use a platform that isn’t controlled by a company who is selling their data and manipulating their world view in the interest of those who care about nothing more than consolidating more wealth and power, at the expense of their users. In some cases at the expense of geopolitical stability and people’s actual lives.
Your sentiment isn’t different just because you couch it in decorum. I’ve played that game long enough, I’m over it. You are very good at it though, kudos.
Yeah, passivity in the face of decline has always been the preferable option. Protecting our sacred decorum is so much more important than maintaining a critical eye and standards. Great take.
Agreed. There’s nothing wrong with this message, but Pizzacake as a creator sucks.
Low effort garbage made by someone who buys upvotes in an attempt to shill her NSFW patreon.
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I agree with you. These comics are pretty low effort excuses to shill a NSFW patreon. In other words, ads.
It’s best to leave these to reddit.
I appreciate that but I do want to be clear, I do not care if pizzacake has an onlyfans or uses her comics to advertise said onlyfans. I am sex positive, and aggressively pro-sex worker, so I will never disparage pizzacake or anyone else for their sexuality or participation in sex work of any kind.
This is not my objection to pizzacake and I strongly agree with those who rightly call out the criticism of her which boils down to judgement of her for her onlyfans. My issues is with the comic content she makes, how she conducts herself online, and mostly with her army of sycophants.
I personally wish pizzacake nothing but success in her onlyfans endeavors and she deserves to be as free from misogynistic comments wrongfully judging her for her sex work as anyone else.
Oh yeah I didn’t mean to imply selling NSFW content is bad or a moral failing of some sort, because its not. Same way pushing boner pills on prime time cable isn’t some sort of moral failing, I just don’t care for it and have no desire to have that content pushed to me, so I avoid it.
My quibble with pizzacake is the low effort level of pushing these ads. If she was selling artisinal mittens and using low effort comics to push that I’d feel the same. It’s just extra weird because the rabid fanbase will jump down your throat to the point that you have to post paragraphs denouncing misogynist intent just to point out that these comics are low effort ads.
EDIT: the r/comics drama and her general handling of criticisms also have influenced my opinion of pizzacake. But honestly, these comics lack any sort of punchline most of the time, and the “biting political takes” like this one are so BLAND and safe.
I understood your objection was with them as advertisements and wasn’t trying to imply otherwise, I just wanted to clarify my own position due to the commonality of criticism of pizzacake for her sex work which, again, I adamantly object to.
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I’ll upvote every one lol. I do not get the hate this artist gets. There is so much real shit to be angry about, why do they waste their tears on this
I’ll take my downvotes, but while I agree with the sentiment in this particular comic I have no fucking interest in seeing shitty pizzacake and her no-punchline comics or her army of sycophants here on Lemmy.
“REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE”
I will never understand why some of you insist on bringing the garbage we left Reddit to escape over here to Lemmy. Let pizzacake have her tiny window of microcelebrity on reddit and please spare the rest of us this bullshit.
We kimosabe? I left Reddit because because its rapidly becoming a rightwing hellhole and it’s inevitable enshitification due to being centralized and privately owned. Go create your own circlejerk club lemmy instance that hates pizzacake. Or just filter it.
Or IDK, downvote and move on. Lambasting a comic book artist in the comments because you see them as undeserving of their success is aggressively elitist hipster douchebaggery.
You should be like me and make everyone hate you for reasons that matter (Telling them their politics and philosophy is shit and stupid) and not arbitrary culture in-group-out-group elitism.
Reddit is far from a right wing hell hole. I haven’t logged on in over a year but jumping to the front page is 4/5 push back against the right with the other 1/5 just “am I over reacting” posts with a sprinkle of cats and everyday humor.
Maybe you’re referring to ownership?
I guess last time I got on there I kept seeing conservative leaning posts or posts from at least subtly conservative coded subs, but maybe that’s just the algorithm baiting me?
I think you’re asking for the moon here, pal.
You’re not wrong. The fact that I’m fighting a knowing losing battle doesn’t make it less meaningful in my eyes, however.
It might help if you included, like, any real information at all since this is so important and meaningful to you. Or just keep raging into the night like a lunatic lol.
I can respect that. Go forth with my blessing, brave knight.
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My sister has lost several friends when they voted MAGA and showed their true, horror selves. My sister is a hero.
You don’t have to be RUDE to me, I just want your abuelos rounded up and deported/ in a prison/ forced labor camp/ disappeared what’s the problem here!?
Philosophy Tube recently did a great video on exactly this. It’s on Nebula for those who subscribe.
Gave a down arrow for the artist not the message
What’s wrong with the artist?
Some people don’t like her because she makes a lot of comics that are like, “Haha, I have portrayed myself as the chad and you as the wojak, therefore I am superior!” Without having any actual comedic value. Example 1, Example 2 (both are reddit links, you have been warned).
She also threatened r/bonehurtingjuice with legal action to make them ban remixes of her comics, something not even Stonetoss (the Nazi comic everyone hates) has done.
So dine people don’t like her because she tells them to piss off? Not a bad reason for me.
She used to be pretty funny years ago, before she started focusing on hating her haters instead of making actual funny stuff. She started doing things like making a comic she knew would piss off some bigots in the comments, then making another comic (or a few) making fun of the people that hated on her to farm karma from the people who saw the original comic. Some people like that. It’s just a bit too toxic for me. I blocked her account a long time ago, so idk what she’s making these days.
Don’t forget about the comic she made downplaying the seriousness of male r*pe on mens mental health awareness day, and the arguments she participated in under her own post with male victims of SA.
Link?
Here’s a r/SubredditDrama post that covers what was said before mods nuked the comments section
And another with more proof of mods nuking comments
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…did you respond to the wrong person or are you just making shit up to be mad at because you don’t have an argument?
I like her comic. It’s satire. She doesn’t agree with the misandry in the comic, you’re supposed to think the women’s opinions are wrong. She’s on the men’s side.
Yes, the comic is satire. The satire is “men getting treated the way female r*pe victims get treated”. Implying that male sexual assault doesn’t happen or that when it does, people actually believe them, when in reality men who are victims of this often just don’t speak up at all because when they are, they’re either not believed, called “gay” for not enjoying it, or it ends up reported with a headline like “female teacher has sex with male student”.
The fact she posted this comic on men’s mental health awareness day and proceeded to engage in arguments with male victims of SA in the comments - who were then banned without a chance to appeal - as well as her past of seeking out her critics to argue with even in other subreddits heavily indicates that this was inflammatory on purpose.
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Receipts have been posted above. Respectfully, I hope more people realize that when someone tries to paint every single one of their critics as being a misogynistic incel, that its a manipulation tactic. (Even though, yes, reddit is full of those too)
I find it really distasteful that she makes comics “in support” of trans people while denying those born as male can experience sexual assault. It’s just a different, more subtle/socially acceptable form of transphobia.
Sometimes comic artists and other creatives put characters in their works who have bad opinions they disagree with. Pizzacake doesn’t agree with the opinion that men can’t be raped, she just depicted it in a comic. Depiction isn’t the same as agreement. If it was, then George Lucas would be a Sith and Mary Shelley would be an abusive parent.
Oh wow, that sounds positively charming.
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This comment has most of what I would say to reply to you, so I’m linking it. Could you point out exactly what I’ve said so far that led you to believe that I’m biased against PCC because she’s an artist or a woman?
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I haven’t spoken about PCC in, possibly, multiple years. I only posted because I was answering someone’s question.
did you guys ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, the reason why she makes fun of you is because you keep coming back with more hate?
Well, she’s not making fun of me because I don’t leave those kinds of comments on her posts, but yeah, this is literally what I just said she was doing. It’s called rage-baiting and it’s going really well for her because the popularity she gains from it translates to Patreon memberships.
you see pizzacake and you just get filled with so much raw emotion you can’t control yourself and lash out like a child only to be driven to attack…a comic artist…
If by raw emotion you mean mild disappointment at the lack of a punchline, sure.
Just spitballing here, but it seems like you’re trying to turn me into something I’m not so that you have a target to spew hatred on. I’m not one of those people raging in the comments about “trans bad, me angry!11!” that I’m sure you love to hurl insults at on Reddit. I’m just someone that doesn’t like comics that I don’t find humorous.
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She’s not actually making fun of them, though, she’s making fun of a stereotype which she imagines her “haters” to be.
The two linked examples are pretty much the definition of a strawman argument.
This shit is exactly why I don’t what pizzacake’s bullshit here. For some fucking reason if you dare say anything short of “great comic” you are immediately lambasted as some kind of social miscreant who must be motivated by anti-women rhetoric.
You are not allowed to dislike pizzacake comics.
“You don’t have to comment, you can just scroll!”
We’re fucking allowed to discuss content online, even critically.
But not pizzacake. For some reason pizzacake is fucking sacred and if you aren’t actively licking the shit out of her asshole you’re literally the devil.
This is exactly the fucking problem.
I found both examples kinda marginally funny.
Nothing nowhere near anything that would be reason to downvote some other piece of her work, like the one in the OP.
Beyond that, call me old fashioned, but copyright is copyright.
Yep, if they’re funny to you, then good for you. I’m not trying to claim that she’s objectively bad or anything like that. I’m just explaining why a lot of people don’t like her.
I liked both comics. I also like bone hurting juice. Fair use is valid.
What is this shit? Every single time I see this uninspired bullshit-ass half-cocked nonsense it’s absolutely nothing. There is no joke here. There is no subtext. There is no comedy. This is just a series of vignettes showing things that wouldn’t be interesting if they happened to me. I wouldn’t find this engaging if I witnessed it occurring from across the room, and yet this artist has decided it deserved to be committed to MS Paint so that we could all witness their mundane life in perpetuity.
I mean, seriously, is this an NFT-type scam or something? Are they using their Patreon to launder money, and driving upvotes here in order to create the illusion that they could realistically be receiving that much? I just cannot fathom that something so “haha relatable” without the “haha” bit could be generating THOUSANDS of positive interactions.
That was pretty funny.
Some people hate anything they perceive as popular, even within a niche.
If you look at the subject matter she covers, it’s typically very safe, middle of the road stuff, at least considering her fan base, see MAGA BAD here as an example.
As a result, her comics are very middle of the road, bland and unimaginative.
It’s annoying how often political comics aren’t funny at all. They’re just bile. I guess some people find it affirming? I always just roll my eyes when I see this stuff, even when I agree with the message.
If “maga bad” is an uncontroversial take, then how come Donald Trump is the president?
at least considering her fan base
Do read the entire comment, yeah?
Right, so when Bernie Sanders says socialism is good, that’s a bland “middle of the road” take given his fan base?
If so, what even is the criticism supposed to mean?
Probius answered your question for me
