In Finnish we have “kissanristiäiset” (literally means a cat’s christening), which means some trivial and meaningless celebration/event.

  • @[email protected]
    1•1 year ago

    You’re not wrong but the way I see it it’s a hierarchical term.

    Portuguese - all Portuguese based languages Brazilian Portuguese - all Portuguese dialects in Brazil European Portuguese - all Portuguese dialects in Portugal Angolan Portuguese - all Portuguese dialects in Angola and so on…

    I’m not expecting everyone to know every expression under the sun, but those are CLEARLY Brazilian-Portuguese based so I thought it best to clear it up because people just say Portuguese most times and I feel that creates some confusion.

    • Lvxferre
      1•1 year ago

      Sorry for the long reply, I happen to enjoy this subject quite a bit.

      The “hierarchy” breaks once you try to analyse it with no regards to governments, focusing solely on linguistic features (phonetic, phonology, syntax, and the expressions). Because of things like this:

      • Manezinho (from Florianópolis) and Azorean dialects are clearly a beast apart. They can understand each other, nobody else can understand them. If there’s one major division in Portuguese, it got to be Insular with those two and Continental with the others.
      • Alentejo usage of -ndo gerunds, a gente, and a partially syllable-timed prosody. Those things are typically associated with BP, not EP.
      • Mineiro (BP) often reducing vowels even more aggressively than Estremenho (EP), even if theoretically BP is known for syllable-timed prosody.
      • More conservative speakers in Paraná and Santa Catarina not raising the final unstressed vowels (you know, that “dor de dente” [dẽte] meme for Curitiba? That’s it), while almost everyone else would raise it to either [ɨ] or [i]. It’s a phonemic deal because the raising merges /e o/ and /i u/ in this position. For reference this conservation of the unraised vowels is usually associated with Galician, not even Portuguese. And it’s actually a phonemic deal, since the raising triggers a merge for non-conservative speakers in Brazil.
      • The dialects in the northern ~half of Brazil (N, NE, chunks of SE) palatalising [s~z] into [ʃ~ʒ], a trait shared with dialects spoken in Portugal, but not with the southern ~half.
      • In the same rough area as above you got a coda /ɾ/→/r/ shift. Mattoso Câmara tries to deal with it in a cheesy way, but it’s also phonemic in nature, unlike using [ɹ] for /ɾ/.
      • Lack of regressive T-palatalisation (/ti/ as [tʃi]) in some chunks of the Brazilian Northeast, in Cuiabá and in some chunks of Santa Catarina. Often with some caveat, like Cuiabano rendering /ʃ/ as [tʃ] instead, some Nordestinos doing progressive palatalisation (e.g. “oito” as [ojtʃu]) and some Catarinas using [ts] instead (e.g. “tia” as [tsiɐ]), that’s clearly a parallel development.
      • Trasmontano still keeping the old /ʃ/ vs. /tʃ/ distinction; e.g. “xícara” with /ʃ/, but “chiar” with /tʃ/.
      • A few heavily conservative expressions used in Caipira Portuguese, such as “inda” and “despois”. Caipira also merges the original coda /l/ with /ɾ/ instead of /w/ (e.g. “mal” as homophone of “mar”, not of “mau”)
      • The SOV→SVO shift for clitic pronouns (te falar → falar-te) being likely more recent in Portugal than the colonisation of Brazil; for example, check news for the Lisbon earthquake and you’ll see SOV being used all the time.

      I’m not informed enough on the dialects spoken in Africa to affirm anything about them, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that also applied there - for example, Portuguese as spoken in Luanda being actually closer to the one in Lisbon than the one in the Angolan countryside.

      And it actually makes sense, when you think about the initial colonisation of Brazil - you had four initial settlements, most people were likely from southern Portugal, and each settlement would undergo independent dialect levelling.

      Any hierarchy that we put here would eventually break, by the way. You get a bunch of wave innovations but their pattern usually ties large centres together, regardless of country, with rural varieties either adopting those features later or developing alternative ones. But if we must see it on a hierarchical way, the split wouldn’t follow country borders, it would be more like:

      • Galician-Portuguese → Galician + Portuguese
      • Portuguese → Coimbra-Lisbon + “a gente” dialects (southern Portugal and Brazil)
      • “a gente” dialects → coda-/r/ dialects (northern half of Brazil) vs. coda-/ɾ/ (southern half of Brazil + Alentejo and the Algarve)

      Note how the division actually lumps Alentejano and Algarviano alongside what you’d call BP, not EP. And note how it still breaks, for example the /ʃ/ coda in the northern half of Brazil was likely interference from Estremenho, even if both dialects would be relatively far from each other in the hierarchy.

      • @[email protected]
        1•1 year ago

        That was a lot to take in indeed. I can’t speak for other dialects, but I can understand Azorean accent absolutely fine, same with Madeira. There are some idiomatic expressions here and there that I would maybe not understand but I would still clearly call it European Portuguese.

        The same goes for Alentejo. They do use -ndo ending sometimes but I would still clearly call it mostly European Portuguese.

        I don’t think this subject needs to be as complicated as you make it. Yes, if we deep dive we can look at things that way but I don’t really think that kind of discussion applies here, nor am I knowledgeable enough to engage with you on that hahah

        I do love how passionate you are about it though!

        • Lvxferre
          1•1 year ago

          At the end of the day what I mean is simply that any somewhat scientific “split” will not match the countries, making the labels near useless for a “hierarchy” (tree-like model) of sorts.

          One important detail to consider is expectations - I’ve noticed that plenty speakers in Brazil tend to associate EP with specifically Estremenho, and in Portugal it seems to be that BP is mostly associated with Paulistano. But since those two diverge quite a bit from each other, this difference ends [incorrectly] extrapolated to some expectation of otherness and uniformity in “Portuguese as spoken there”.

          Tendo dito isto, já que disse entender a variedade dos Açores: como classificaria a variedade deste vídeo - pt_PT ou pt_BR?

          I do love how passionate you are about it though!

          Thanks, and sorry - durante meus tempos de uni trabalhei com variedades locais (embora o foco fosse outro), então acabo falando um pouco demais do assunto, quando vem à tona.

          • @[email protected]
            1•1 year ago

            Scientifically it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what makes EP or BP or others. Although maybe it could be done?

            However, it’s easy to tell BP a part from others. If you mainly use “você” it’s BP. If you don’t use it, then you’d have to check other things I guess. Since, for instance, Portuguese from most African/Asian countries use “tu”.

            Em relação ao vídeo, facilmente classificaria o vídeo como PT-BR. Apesar de não entender tudo, não só pelas expressões mas pela rapidez como é falado, consigo claramente perceber algumas expressões que dão características de Português do Brasil. Exemplos, a expressão “Aí eu falei”. O uso de “o cara”, “poxa” e outros. Não saberia dizer de que região do Brasil seria o sotaque/expressões, mas conseguia facilmente dizer que era do Brasil.

            Edit: afinal até percebo melhor do que pensava. Tinha a velocidade do YouTube a 1.25x Voltando para 1x, ficou mais fácil de perceber.