I don’t say that. The “personal relationship” thing is just not in the Bible. That’s a recent addition to satisfy the independent American, and nobody would’ve recognized that faith before American evangelicals invented it. Christianity was always intended to be–and has historically been–practiced in community, with people in one another’s lives so that they can see and exhort one another toward sanctification.
Okay, I didn’t realize that was a more recent phenomenon. I did a quick lookup and it seems that this “personal relationship” thing started during the Enlightenment. And, as you say, some people argue that the “accept Jesus into your heart” thing really got going with American evangelical grifter-preachers like Billy Graham. I will read some more. Thanks for the tip.
I’m not sure if that Second Reformation you speak of will ever happen. Christianity has lost almost all credibility. Something less fraught with horrible historical baggage will have to take its place. Christianity is pre-scientific. Luther and the Protestants were able to shed their brand of Christianity of its Roman imperial trappings, which was due, but half of Christians are still Catholic. But even Luther is pre-scientific. Educated people just aren’t going to go back to believing in some invisible sky daddy. I mean, come on, an all-powerful, invisible, father figure who delivers justice to the oppressed (but only in the NEXT life) and who loves you no matter what? It is too obviously a wishful construct of childish human consciousness. And some Middle Eastern dude whose death saved all of humanity and who said he’s coming back any time now, but that was 2000 years ago? It’s too much. We know too much now to read the Bible as though it is literally true. We’ve moved on. Something more believable will have to take its place.
Also, Protestantism is currently associated with American evangelical right wing nutters. Besides the church scandals, the politicization of Christianity, including the attacks on women’s rights, homosexuality, the book banning, the stacking of SCOTUS with Christian zealots who only seem to want to restrict rights, and the election of a Christian Nationalist to the Speaker role are not putting Christianity in a good light. If anything, the crazy moralistic and hypocritical side of Christianity seems to be taking centre stage. Western populations outside of the US are rejecting Christianity in droves and that rejection is particularly pronounced among young people. If Trump and the Christian anti-science right-wingers take office again, it might well be the final nail in the coffin for religion in most of the West.
Many of the poor countries of the global South are still pretty Christian, but their version of Christianity is very, very conservative. And by “conservative”, I mean the “let’s burn all the gays” type of conservative. Extremist Muslims and Jews massacring each other in the Middle East, and Modi with his Hindu Nationalism, just make the societal mood toward religion worse, leading many to believe that ALL religion is inherently harmful.
Honestly, rather than the Second Reformation you speak of, I think we are more likely see further bans on religious expression in public life, and possibly some form of state protection for children to prevent them from being religiously indoctrinated. If all the “reasonable” people leave religion behind, only the extremists will be left, which will further convince the population that religion is harmful. It seems like Christianity has entered that downward spiral.
[…] it seems that this “personal relationship” thing started during the Enlightenment. And, as you say, some people argue that the “accept Jesus into your heart” thing really got going with American evangelical grifter-preachers like Billy Graham. I will read some more. Thanks for the tip.
Yeah, for sure. Someone else pointed out that it’s also a repackaging of an ancient and widely-discredited heresy called Gnosticism, so perhaps “recent” is an overstatement; but for the vast majority of Christian history, it has not been considered orthodox.
Christianity has lost almost all credibility.
I don’t disagree, though I might clarify that Christianity has lost almost all credibility in the West due to the association with people who claim the name but have nothing to do with its tenets.
Educated people just aren’t going to go back to believing in some invisible sky daddy.
I don’t think that necessarily matches up with the data. Globally, Christians have on average the same amount or more schooling than non-Christians. The association of anti-intellectualism with Christians is also a recent American phenomenon, the Dark Ages excepted.
I mean, come on, an all-powerful, invisible, father figure who delivers justice to the oppressed (but only in the NEXT life) and who loves you no matter what? […] And some Middle Eastern dude whose death saved all of humanity and who said he’s coming back any time now, but that was 2000 years ago? It’s too much.
Yeah, I agree, it’s unusual. But if it was completely explainable, if it matched all of our expectations and experiences, it wouldn’t be divine. A transcendent God would have to do things and know things we don’t expect or understand, or we would be his equal.
It is too obviously a wishful construct of childish human consciousness.
I have to be honest, if I were trying to imagine and craft a religion for myself, it would be a lot heavier on me always getting what I want and a lot lower on the self-sacrifice. (/s, but only a little bit)
Honestly, and I legitimately just realized this, it would look a lot more like the false faith that people like Johnson believe in.
Protestantism is currently associated with American evangelical right wing nutters. […very fair criticism…] If anything, the crazy moralistic and hypocritical side of Christianity seems to be taking centre stage.
Yep. They are. For those of us who try not to be in that camp, it’s very frustrating. But I think they are honestly the loud minority.
Western populations outside of the US are rejecting Christianity in droves and that rejection is particularly pronounced among young people. If Trump and the Christian anti-science right-wingers take office again, it might well be the final nail in the coffin for religion in most of the West.
This has been oft-prophesied. I will say that, if this anti-science right-wing nonsense masquerading as Christianity dies, what small remnant of Christians might continue on will be much healthier with their absence.
Extremist Muslims and Jews massacring each other in the Middle East, and Modi with his Hindu Nationalism, just make the societal mood toward religion worse, leading many to believe that ALL religion is inherently harmful.
I would hope people are able to see the difference between religion and extremism. Not that extremists make that easy.
Honestly, rather than the Second Reformation you speak of, I think we are more likely see further bans on religious expression in public life, and possibly some form of state protection for children to prevent them from being religiously indoctrinated.
In any occasion where religion is suppressed or banned, it flourishes underground. This is well-attested historically, not merely for Christians; and can be seen even today in places like China.
If all the “reasonable” people leave religion behind, only the extremists will be left, which will further convince the population that religion is harmful. It seems like Christianity has entered that downward spiral.
Perhaps. I think the premise is unfounded, but in any case it doesn’t change my plan. All the bad feelings and negative thoughts about Christianity are meaningless if it’s true, and I believe it is; so I’ll just keep on trying to be as loving and helpful as I can.
Okay, I didn’t realize that was a more recent phenomenon. I did a quick lookup and it seems that this “personal relationship” thing started during the Enlightenment. And, as you say, some people argue that the “accept Jesus into your heart” thing really got going with American evangelical grifter-preachers like Billy Graham. I will read some more. Thanks for the tip.
I’m not sure if that Second Reformation you speak of will ever happen. Christianity has lost almost all credibility. Something less fraught with horrible historical baggage will have to take its place. Christianity is pre-scientific. Luther and the Protestants were able to shed their brand of Christianity of its Roman imperial trappings, which was due, but half of Christians are still Catholic. But even Luther is pre-scientific. Educated people just aren’t going to go back to believing in some invisible sky daddy. I mean, come on, an all-powerful, invisible, father figure who delivers justice to the oppressed (but only in the NEXT life) and who loves you no matter what? It is too obviously a wishful construct of childish human consciousness. And some Middle Eastern dude whose death saved all of humanity and who said he’s coming back any time now, but that was 2000 years ago? It’s too much. We know too much now to read the Bible as though it is literally true. We’ve moved on. Something more believable will have to take its place.
Also, Protestantism is currently associated with American evangelical right wing nutters. Besides the church scandals, the politicization of Christianity, including the attacks on women’s rights, homosexuality, the book banning, the stacking of SCOTUS with Christian zealots who only seem to want to restrict rights, and the election of a Christian Nationalist to the Speaker role are not putting Christianity in a good light. If anything, the crazy moralistic and hypocritical side of Christianity seems to be taking centre stage. Western populations outside of the US are rejecting Christianity in droves and that rejection is particularly pronounced among young people. If Trump and the Christian anti-science right-wingers take office again, it might well be the final nail in the coffin for religion in most of the West.
Many of the poor countries of the global South are still pretty Christian, but their version of Christianity is very, very conservative. And by “conservative”, I mean the “let’s burn all the gays” type of conservative. Extremist Muslims and Jews massacring each other in the Middle East, and Modi with his Hindu Nationalism, just make the societal mood toward religion worse, leading many to believe that ALL religion is inherently harmful.
Honestly, rather than the Second Reformation you speak of, I think we are more likely see further bans on religious expression in public life, and possibly some form of state protection for children to prevent them from being religiously indoctrinated. If all the “reasonable” people leave religion behind, only the extremists will be left, which will further convince the population that religion is harmful. It seems like Christianity has entered that downward spiral.
Yeah, for sure. Someone else pointed out that it’s also a repackaging of an ancient and widely-discredited heresy called Gnosticism, so perhaps “recent” is an overstatement; but for the vast majority of Christian history, it has not been considered orthodox.
I don’t disagree, though I might clarify that Christianity has lost almost all credibility in the West due to the association with people who claim the name but have nothing to do with its tenets.
I don’t think that necessarily matches up with the data. Globally, Christians have on average the same amount or more schooling than non-Christians. The association of anti-intellectualism with Christians is also a recent American phenomenon, the Dark Ages excepted.
Yeah, I agree, it’s unusual. But if it was completely explainable, if it matched all of our expectations and experiences, it wouldn’t be divine. A transcendent God would have to do things and know things we don’t expect or understand, or we would be his equal.
I have to be honest, if I were trying to imagine and craft a religion for myself, it would be a lot heavier on me always getting what I want and a lot lower on the self-sacrifice. (/s, but only a little bit)
Honestly, and I legitimately just realized this, it would look a lot more like the false faith that people like Johnson believe in.
Yep. They are. For those of us who try not to be in that camp, it’s very frustrating. But I think they are honestly the loud minority.
This has been oft-prophesied. I will say that, if this anti-science right-wing nonsense masquerading as Christianity dies, what small remnant of Christians might continue on will be much healthier with their absence.
I would hope people are able to see the difference between religion and extremism. Not that extremists make that easy.
In any occasion where religion is suppressed or banned, it flourishes underground. This is well-attested historically, not merely for Christians; and can be seen even today in places like China.
Perhaps. I think the premise is unfounded, but in any case it doesn’t change my plan. All the bad feelings and negative thoughts about Christianity are meaningless if it’s true, and I believe it is; so I’ll just keep on trying to be as loving and helpful as I can.
Well, you are succeeding at being a decent person to talk to, even if I am an atheist. All the best to you. :)
Thank you! I appreciated our discussion greatly, and wish you the best as well. Have a good one!