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- cross-posted to:
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In early December, images circulated worldwide showing dozens of Palestinian men in the city of Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip, who were stripped to their underwear, kneeling or sitting hunched over, then blindfolded and put into the back of Israeli military trucks like cattle. The vast majority of these detainees were civilians with no affiliation to Hamas, Israeli security officials later confirmed, and the men were taken away by the army without notifying their families of the detainees’ whereabouts. Some of them never returned.
+972 Magazine and Local Call spoke with four Palestinian civilians who appeared in these photos, or were arrested near the scene and taken to Israeli military detention centers, where they were held for several days or even weeks before being released back to Gaza. Their testimonies — along with 49 video testimonies published by various Arabic media outlets of Palestinians arrested in similar circumstances in recent weeks in the northern districts of Zeitoun, Jabalia, and Shuja’iya — indicate systematic abuse and torture by Israeli soldiers against all of the detainees, civilians and combatants alike.
According to these testimonies, Israeli soldiers subjected Palestinian detainees to electric shocks, burned their skin with lighters, spat in their mouths, and deprived them of sleep, food, and access to bathrooms until they defecated on themselves. Many were tied to a fence for hours, handcuffed, and blindfolded for most of the day. Some testified to having been beaten all over their bodies and having cigarettes extinguished on their necks or backs. Several people are known to have died as a result of being held in these conditions.
This is not acceptable. Under any circumstances. Israel has the right to defend itself from terrorists but these atrocious war crimes are not a solution. At the same time, it’s just useless and it completely dehumanizes people.
Even if all in question were terrorists, Israel should never get to a level as low as this one.
It’s been at this level for decades.
And its a shame that none of the 2 sides learnt their lessons.
What two sides? You mean the nazis and the people who are right by default, because their opponents ARE FUCKING NAZIS?
There are no lessons to be learned here. Israel is doing what they have always done: stealing land and conducting genocide. While Palestinians are doing what they’ve always done - fighting the fucking nazis. At this point in time, the only lesson to be learned is that the UN should collectively take Israel back, give the land to Palestinians and then literally suck some Palestinian dick for a few hundred years as an apology.
This is factually very incorrect and you are completely ignoring half of the story. Just like Israel displaced many Arabs from their land, Arab countries did the same: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
If you argue that Israel should give the whole land back to Palestinians, sure, but also convince many Arab countries to give parts of their land back to Jews. So that it is fair and Israelis have somewhere to go. I am sure that this idea would go very well in Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc. If you say that UN should collectively take Israel back, where should the Israelis go? Just like Palestinians, they have nowhere else to go. Asking for the destruction of Israel is just like asking for the destruction of Palestine - a terrible idea.
It is fair to say both sides have done terrible actions and none of them can be excused. However, telling only one side of the story and completely ignoring the other one is not correct. Debating who is the worse here makes zero sense. For every argument why Israel is worse than Palestine, it is possible to find one why Palestine is worse than Israel. It’s literally like debating who was the best and worst out of Hitler, Stalin and Zedong. Continuing the debate who has done more crimes is completely useless because it helps nothing. Both sides have done tons of them.
From the first paragraph in your link:
So the expulsion of Jewish people from Arab states discussed here came AFTER the illegal forming of Israel - as a direct result of it, in fact. Israelis did have “somewhere to go” before the zionists movement basically lobbied for a state of their own - they lived all over the world.
And of course this happened. If any country is 90% religion x and there is some land somewhere that is split between religion x and religion y, the UN would face horrendous push back from the 90% of that initial country that sympathizes with religion x. And while religion is a plague on our lands that brings little value aside from excusing atrocities, this is the fucking UN. Lacking the tact to understand how their shit resolution destabilized the region isn’t something that’s supposed to be allowed for them. They fucked up and now refuse to fix it.
But let’s make it easier - have the UN pass a resolution today that makes half the US(or Germany, or the UK, or Russia) Arab land, only for Arabs, to be settled by Arab settlers. See how well that fucking goes, and then go ahead and blame that country for not being willing to go ahead with half their land being taken away.
There is no “other side” here, man. Zionists created this problem. They’re unwilling to fix it, and they’re unwilling to stop their genocide. Everything else is a reaction to this. You don’t get to say “fuck you, I own this land now” and then turn around and say “WAAAAHH THE OTHER SIDE DOESN’T WANT TO COMPROMISE”. Of course they fucking don’t.
Israel is committing genocide. That is why it is worse. That is what everyone except you can see, and that is why you’ve lost this argument.
So far there has not been a decision made that Israel is committing genocide, so your point is irrelevant. It is currently at the international court. Once the final decision is made, then we will see.
Judging what war crime is worse cannot be exactly said and depends on person’s opinion…
Where do you live? I think I should move in and then kill your family if they object.
They you will be prosecuted and jailed for a very long time.
Found the colonizer
Why were the early Zionists dead set on partition (and repeatedly stated that partition would only be a step to a full state of Israel) as soon as Palestinian leaders advocated for a unitary state? Why does Palestine get the blame for not wanting their land taken during WWII while European countries and the US didn’t increase or in some cases even restricted Jewish immigration even once the Nazi atrocious were known? What’s the Palestinian equivalent of Plan Dalet? How about the Israeli martial law? The occupation and blockade? There absolutely has been a cycle of violence, but this has been a cycle of violence between the Colonizer/Occupier and Colonized/Occupied
https://imeu.org/article/plan-dalet
https://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#Israel
https://forward.com/news/470923/israel-land-conquest-1967-occupation-six-day-war-plans/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
https://www.btselem.org/duty_to_end_occupation
The issue with this narrative is that there was a state of Palestine. It wasn’t like Palestine existed and UN suddenly came and decided that a part of it would belong to Jewish people. There was the intention to create 3 new states (Jordan, Israel and Palestine) which never existed before.
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That’s addressed in the 2nd link
“Zionism was a settler colonial movement, similar to the movements of Europeans who had colonized the two Americas, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand… Settler colonialism is motivated by a desire to take over land in a foreign country, while classical colonialism covets the natural resources in its new geographic possession… The problem was that the new ‘homelands’ were already inhabited by other people. In response, the settler communities argued that the new land was theirs by divine or moral right, even if, in cases other than Zionism, they did not claim to have lived there thousands of years ago. In many cases, the accepted method for overcoming such obstacles was the genocide of the indigenous locals.”
Serious question.
Does an occupier have the “right” to defend itself from attacks from the occupied in occupied areas? For example, attacks on the IDF in the West Bank.
I believe that as long as there are attacks against civilians, then yes. Basically attacking civilians is never a good option. Many people live in the undisputed areas simply because it’s more beneficial to them as Israel supports it a lot. I personally visited one of these areas and the amenities were very good. So I don’t think that it should be okay for Palestinians to come and murder Israelis in the undisputed areas.
However, the main issue is that these settlements exist. I am under the impression that you should not use the land as long as it is not widely recognised that it belongs to you. So the main issue is the approach that Israel claimed something is theirs without actually talking about it with the relevant parties.
But it’s been their decision to do this shit, so it’s their responsibility to solve it now. Either abandon it (which would be a complete waste of resources) or build something for Palestinians but those are just random guesses.
The settlements only exist because the Palestinians have been violently ethnically cleansed from the land the settlements exist on.
What you are arguing is effectively, it’s fine to ethnically cleanse as long you settle civilians there afterwards.
I have not said that. I have said there should not be a violence from Palestinians because it solves nothing.
The IRA and ANC had great political outcomes through violence. Meanwhile the PLO laid down arms and Israel acts like the Oslo accords never happened.
Well maybe it worked sometimes but here it is not. Arabs/Palestinians tried roughly 10+ times and each time it ended in a complete catastrophe for them. At least I would change strategy.
In case you haven’t noticed, most of the Palestinians being killed are the ones that didn’t resort to violence, exactly the behaviour you claim above they should try.
Your entire “argumentation” line relies on the racist idea that all Palestinians are the same and hence they’re all responsible for the violence of Hamas.
It’s like justifying the Nazis going to villages in Occupied France and executing 10 random people for every German killed by the Résistance Française as if they’re all the same and hence all guilty of the violence, something which is so painfully close to what Israel has been doing (except Israel has already surpassed the Nazis, with a rate which is more than double that 10-to-1 and includes children) and the kind of justification the Iraeli Authorities and their fellow racist supremacists give.
That racist “they’re all the same hence all to blame (including children)” line has long ago stopped working, including your “Palestinians are violent” variant.
Excellent point. There should also not be violence from Israel because it solves nothing. So end the fucking genocide, the occupation, the god damn apartheid.
I agree with you. By these huge operations, Israel pretty much opens the door for another big extremist group.
Neither does peaceful protest considering ethnic cleansing has continued unabated for decades.
Well there have been several negotiations, so it is definitely better to continue in those compared to starting a war.
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So basically you are saying the settlers are like Israel’s human shields for the occupation and the Palestinians should not attack them? Excellent point, which of course should be applied also to the Gazan civilian population.
My point is that both sides should to their best to protect civilians whether those civilians are Palestinian or Israeli. None of them is doing it.
Buckle up because it’s very much going to be accepted