Potentially hot take: I wish that more free and open source project leaders had the same “no-bullshit” attitude as Torvalds. It’s a great way to cull out entitled people who put their own feelings over actual contribution, thus having negative impact over the project.
And every single other alternative to this behaviour would lead to worse outcomes, either to the project or the patch submitter.
I just wished he stopped making it personal. There’s a huge difference between calling a person stupid and shitty versus calling the implementation stupid and shitty.
He rants, points out the flaws, calls the contributor a moron, and you have to waits a few emails before Linus actually provides a teaching moment. That kinda sucks.
It really does drive people away. I’m not good enough for the kernel, but there’s a project I could contribute to as part of my job but I don’t because there are mean folks there. My first contribution there was met with cursing.
Less likely to be effective. There’s a good chance that the submitter won’t get the message, and that they’ll submit another pull request, five minutes later, with the exact same issue that made the first PR to be rejected. And again. Again. Again.
More insulting. Now you aren’t just saying “your code is garbage”; you’re saying “your code is garbage and you’re a fragile little thing that will break apart if handled incorrectly”.
As likely to create drama as the original verbiage, given that the drama is originated in human nature - we humans want to believe (even if outright false) that we’re “contributing”, even when we are not.
I didn’t call your approach stupid because I don’t think that it’s stupid, even if I disagree with it.
The modified verbiage obfuscates the message in a way which only impedes understanding aiding growth but not understanding evoking drama?
If the message wasn’t delivered, there’s a high chance of further interactions that might create drama in the future. The quote in the OP is an example of that - in the original context there’s an “AGAIN” that shows that it was not the first time that Steven Rostedt submitted a patch with the exact same issue.
So I believe that, even if you might get less drama now because the message wasn’t understood, you’ll end getting it later anyway.
Also, Torvalds’ message does promote growth, if read fully. Even with the “your code is garbage”, he’s still explaining:
which function should be used there, atomic64_add_return()
the purpose of get_next_ino() and other VSF functions
that Rostedt is addressing what Torvalds believe to be a “made up problem”
that Rostedt should read further info on the core functions, before using them
it’s just that the quote picks the spicy bit and leaves the boring carb behind.
Heaven help the community if “flawed & inefficient”, “poor practice…pattern” aren’t direct enough feedback!
This was not directed towards the Linux community. It was directed towards a Google engineer. The community is the ones that you’re indirectly proposing that deserve worse software for the sake of that part of Google’s corporation.
And “worse” is not just a matter of “oh, I got a kernel panic. Damn. Reboot.” It’s actually serious shit; that kernel code will end being used in things from medical applications to sending Ingenuity to Mars. Worse code might literally mean “we detected your cancer too late, last time you were here the MRI wasn’t working”.
He is not even getting personal in this case dammit. I concede that getting personal (he does it sometimes) would be over-the-topic, but in this case he’s insulting the code, not the person.
Linus’s style being an outlier suggests polite criticism is enough to make the world turn.
Torvalds’ style is an outlier but so is the kernel. And the kernel being an outlier suggests that harsh criticism actually works.
Most of our [we = human beings, including you and me] production is garbage, even if acknowledging this offends our sensibilities.
It’s almost like you guys [you + people across this thread] want to believe that only the carrot is effective. The stick is also effective, even if you don’t want to believe that it is.
I think you could even simply replace capslock GARBAGE with capslock [FUNDAMENTALLY] FLAWED, leave the “AGAIN”, and it’d be OK if harsh.
Dunno if you noticed, but this is actually ruder in hindsight.
Torvalds’ approach: “your code is garbage.”
Your approach: “your code is garbage but since you’re a fragile little piece of junk I can’t tell you that directly, I got to mince some words.”
And odds are that, if he did it the way that you’re proposing, people would complain again that he’s being rude, and expect him to mince words even further.
Glad he did some teaching after the flaming in any case.
He did it before, during, and after bashing Rostedt.
There’s many ways to point out the issues with the patch without being a jerk. The patch wouldn’t have made it in either way, and maybe there could’ve been more useful conversations about the concerns (re: tar) that were brought up in the previous message.
Potentially hot take: I wish that more free and open source project leaders had the same “no-bullshit” attitude as Torvalds. It’s a great way to cull out entitled people who put their own feelings over actual contribution, thus having negative impact over the project.
And every single other alternative to this behaviour would lead to worse outcomes, either to the project or the patch submitter.
I don’t disagree.
I just wished he stopped making it personal. There’s a huge difference between calling a person stupid and shitty versus calling the implementation stupid and shitty.
He rants, points out the flaws, calls the contributor a moron, and you have to waits a few emails before Linus actually provides a teaching moment. That kinda sucks.
It really does drive people away. I’m not good enough for the kernel, but there’s a project I could contribute to as part of my job but I don’t because there are mean folks there. My first contribution there was met with cursing.
Looks like you have not been a part of any Linux community before 🤔…
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My opinion is that it is:
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I didn’t call your approach stupid because I don’t think that it’s stupid, even if I disagree with it.
If the message wasn’t delivered, there’s a high chance of further interactions that might create drama in the future. The quote in the OP is an example of that - in the original context there’s an “AGAIN” that shows that it was not the first time that Steven Rostedt submitted a patch with the exact same issue.
So I believe that, even if you might get less drama now because the message wasn’t understood, you’ll end getting it later anyway.
Also, Torvalds’ message does promote growth, if read fully. Even with the “your code is garbage”, he’s still explaining:
atomic64_add_return()get_next_ino()and other VSF functionsit’s just that the quote picks the spicy bit and leaves the boring carb behind.
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This was not directed towards the Linux community. It was directed towards a Google engineer. The community is the ones that you’re indirectly proposing that deserve worse software for the sake of that part of Google’s corporation.
And “worse” is not just a matter of “oh, I got a kernel panic. Damn. Reboot.” It’s actually serious shit; that kernel code will end being used in things from medical applications to sending Ingenuity to Mars. Worse code might literally mean “we detected your cancer too late, last time you were here the MRI wasn’t working”.
He is not even getting personal in this case dammit. I concede that getting personal (he does it sometimes) would be over-the-topic, but in this case he’s insulting the code, not the person.
Torvalds’ style is an outlier but so is the kernel. And the kernel being an outlier suggests that harsh criticism actually works.
Most of our [we = human beings, including you and me] production is garbage, even if acknowledging this offends our sensibilities.
It’s almost like you guys [you + people across this thread] want to believe that only the carrot is effective. The stick is also effective, even if you don’t want to believe that it is.
Dunno if you noticed, but this is actually ruder in hindsight.
And odds are that, if he did it the way that you’re proposing, people would complain again that he’s being rude, and expect him to mince words even further.
He did it before, during, and after bashing Rostedt.
It will fall on deaf ears
It’s garbage.
There’s many ways to point out the issues with the patch without being a jerk. The patch wouldn’t have made it in either way, and maybe there could’ve been more useful conversations about the concerns (re: tar) that were brought up in the previous message.
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