That way we can simply do nothing because only one political party is encouraging its constituents to arm up while the other wants everyone to disarm. Guess which side will win?
I don’t know what their position is either, but “arming up” isn’t going to do anything against a modern, relatively competent military. Back in the time the second amendment was written (as an example) there wasn’t that big a disparity in the resources the military could use and normal people. The citizens were less organized but had numbers on their side.
Today, there is absolutely nothing you can do with a gun vs drones, bombs, planes, etc. The only way you really prevail is if the government isn’t willing to slaughter its own citizens and guns aren’t helping there at all. In fact, the opposite may be true since it makes it easy for the government to label the people shooting at their officials as terrorists.
So, all of this is wrong, but also beside the point. The main point of arming up is so that we don’t all get murdered by fascists. I don’t mean that in the sense that fascists will take over the government, and then use the state apparatus to exterminate us. The murdering happens before and during their seizure of political power.
Researchers find ‘zero evidence of any kind of protective effects’, with women at particular risk
[snip]
Living with a handgun owner particularly increased the risk of being shot to death in a domestic violence incident, and it did not provide any protection against being killed at home by a stranger, the researchers found.
While gun-suicide rates are higher in rural states, which have proportionally more gun owners, the gun-suicide link plays out in urban areas, too. “In the early 1990s, the dramatic rise in young black male suicides was in lock step with the homicide epidemic of those years,” says HSPH’s Deborah Azrael, associate director of the Harvard Youth Violence Prevention Center. “Young black male suicide rates approached those of young white males—though black suicide rates had always been much lower than white suicide rates. It was entirely attributable to an increase in suicide by firearms.” Put simply, the fatal link applies across the board. “It’s true of men, it’s true of women, it’s true of kids. It’s true of blacks, it’s true of whites,” says Azrael. “Cut it however you want: In places where exposure to guns is higher, more people die of suicide.”
You’re far more likely to drown if you own a pool in your backyard. Population level statistic applied to your individual lifestyle choices are meaningless and patronizing.
Also wrong, and not really relevant to my point? I’m not talking about the value proposition of having a gun for dealing with run of the mill crime.
We’re (Americans) in a situation where we’re faced with an active and armed fascist movement, and those who would oppose that movement have systematically disarmed themselves because “guns bad”. What’s your plan for when they decide to remind us that “political power grows out of the barrel of a gun”?
Don’t bother consulting your canned talking points, you actually have to think about this one for yourself.
“You’re wrong” does not constitute a counterargument.
The murdering happens before and during their seizure of political power.
So the scenario is fascists are just roaming around murdering liberals at a point before they seize political power? What are the police doing? If the police are looking the other way, the fascists already have political power. So what you’re talking about doesn’t seem at all realistic.
Even if we look to one of the most extreme examples in history -Nazi Germany - it still didn’t happen remotely like what you’re apparently concerned about.
I’ll go ahead and respond to your other post as well:
I’m not talking about the value proposition of having a gun for dealing with run of the mill crime.
This makes the value proposition look even worse. At least run of the mill crime has a semi-realistic chance of happening. Doing something that has negative value in normal times and only pays off if something very extreme like civilization breaking down occurs is kind of irrational.
because “guns bad”.
You’ll get further in life if you don’t make a straw man out of positions you don’t agree with. Although, admittedly, you can get pretty far on straw men and Gish gallops.
Anyway:
We’re (Americans) in a situation where we’re faced with an active and armed fascist movement, and those who would oppose that movement have systematically disarmed themselves because “guns bad”.
If we basically have to worry about warlords wandering around killing people at will then civilization already is done.
What’s your plan for when they decide to remind us that “political power grows out of the barrel of a gun”?
I don’t plan my life around everyone being raptured away, aliens landing or civilization completely breaking down. It’s irrational to make real sacrifices or do things that require a meaningful tradeoff/risk to avoid such unlikely events.
What’s your plan for when they decide to remind us that “political power grows out of the barrel of a gun”?
I’m pretty sure Mao didn’t mean “If you have a gun, you have political power” with that quote. The original quote was “以后要非常注意军事，须知政权是由枪杆子中取得的”. It’s not talking about random citizens with guns, it’s from the perspective of leading/governing countries.
Rather than get locked in a “someone is wrong on the internet” cycle, let’s put a pin in this. We’ve both read each others points, and found them unconvincing. Whatever audience we might hope to sway has thinned out. On reddit I would have just silently walked away at this point, but the threadiverse is small and we’re likely to encounter each other again.
I’m guessing that our disagreement just comes down to a liberal vs leftist divide, and possibly also American vs European. We’re not likely to bridge those as random internet commenters. So, TTFN.
Participation in the conversation is completely voluntary so it’s completely up to you if you want to respond.
We’ve both read each others points, and found them unconvincing.
You didn’t really argue your point though. You said “You’re wrong” and “… But what if bad stuff happens?” It’s not like we had an actual debate here. Maybe you didn’t find the points I made compelling, but at least I tried to explain my reasoning for reaching that position.
but the threadiverse is small and we’re likely to encounter each other again.
Any negative perception I have toward you personally really doesn’t have anything to do with the actuall disagreement, but your approach to “discussing” it. “Because guns bad”, “don’t bother consulting your canned talking points”, etc is not a good-faith approach to debate. If you actually care about fostering good relations in a fairly small community where you may run into people again, I’d suggest reexamining your methods.
I’m guessing that our disagreement just comes down to a liberal vs leftist divide
I don’t think so. My position and what I’m arguing (although possibly incorrect) is purely based on what I see as the reality of the situation. A belief about whether guns are effective for preserving freedom against the government/fascists/whatever doesn’t have anything really to do with politics.
and possibly also American vs European.
Which one of us is supposed to be the American and which one is supposed to be the European?
I have very little patience for online debate at this stage of my life. It’s not sufficient to really change the minds of people who have an established position, generally speaking. Unless I find the discussion inherently enjoyable, or I feel that I can sway some undecided people, I tend to just peace out. Not worth my time.
My goal here was to plug /m/LiberalGunOwners, in response to someone worrying about fascism and mentioning guns. Mainly trying to find “my people” and get them organized after the Great Reddit Diaspora.
In this context, you and weirdwallace75 come in with the talking points. Yes, talking points. They’re flawed, they’re patronizing, they’re uncompelling, and I’ve heard them many, many times before. They really are irrelevant to my concerns. “What about this fascist movement” is not addressed by “but you might hurt yourself”.
Once you did address my concern, it just revealed what I’m referring to as the “liberal vs leftist” divide. This divide reflects a difference in worldview. If you had my worldview, you’d be an anarchist. As a (presumably) liberal, you’re relatively less concerned about fascist movements, and your prescription for dealing with them is going to rely (relatively) more on institutions and less on direct action.
There isn’t really anything to be done about this divide. We’re just going to disagree.
I have very little patience for online debate at this stage of my life.
That’s fine, of course. Don’t debate/discuss anything you don’t feel like debating, but you shouldn’t make a straw man out of the position of people you disagree with or be uncivil.
In this context, you and weirdwallace75 come in with the talking points. Yes, talking points.
It’s not clear what exactly you’re accusing me of. Mindlessly parroting other peoples’ views?
They’re flawed, they’re patronizing, they’re uncompelling, and I’ve heard them many, many times before.
If what I said is so weak and easily refuted it’s a little strange that the best rebuttal you can come up with is “you’re wrong”.
If you had my worldview, you’d be an anarchist. As a (presumably) liberal, you’re relatively less concerned about fascist movements, and your prescription for dealing with them is going to rely (relatively) more on institutions and less on direct action.
There’s a grain of truth here, but it’s kind of beside the point and you’re making some odd assumptions. Why do you think you know what I’m concerned about?
Once again, while I don’t doubt we also have fundamental philosophical differences, the current disagreement (from my side anyway) is about practical ways to deal with the issue. From a purely practical standpoint, I don’t think individual citizens owning guns is going to be effective or worth the tradeoff to prevent the kinds of risks you mentioned. I could be far left, I could be liberal, I could be far right, I could be a centrist: none of that would have any bearing on something that comes down to the question of “is this an effective tool for the task”.
I’m not an anarchist, so guessed correctly there. It’s not because I love governments, institutions, central authority or because I’m opposed to anarchy (or any philosophy/approach that isn’t hurting others). My personal philosophy is do whatever you want as long as it’s not harming other people/animals (I’m a Utilitiarian). So I’m pro whatever method leads to the most happiness/least suffering.
I always resent this braindead argument. There’s a huge difference between a country waging a foreign war and a country waging a war against its own cities and citizens. Insurgencies work and has been proven time and time again. See: Iraq
There’s a huge difference between a country waging a foreign war and a country waging a war against its own cities and citizens.
Indeed, in that the country isn’t generally going to have the will to massacre its own citizens. So it’s not that the citizens have a gun that is staying its hand, it’s the lack of desire to just go ahead and slaughter them. Part of that is going to come from the fact that the country’s military is made up of people who have these citizens as their friends, neighbors, etc.
So having a gun isn’t helping you at all in that situation.
Insurgencies work and has been proven time and time again. See: Iraq
So these insurgents control Iraq now? They “won”?
Also, it’s not really a comparable situation: dealing with insurgents halfway across the world is harder than dealing with them in your backyard. The US was also not really trying to take over and just rule the country, they were at least half-heartedly trying to set up a government that could manage stuff. In addition, the middle east and oil is strategically important to the US but insurgents in Iraq are obviously much less of a pressing concern than insurgents in the US. Naturally the US isn’t going to invest the same level of resources and go to the same lengths to deal with those problems in Iraq compared to what it would do if that was happening in its own backyard. Finally, a lot of the insurgents were religious extremists. Even if every liberal in the US was armed, do you think we/they would really go to those lengths? I think we’re just too used to living comfortably and don’t really believe anything with that level of fanaticism to be running around with an AK waging a guerrilla war even if we had the AK.
Good thing everyone can have guns. /s
That way we can simply do nothing because only one political party is encouraging its constituents to arm up while the other wants everyone to disarm. Guess which side will win?
I’m genuinely uncertain what your actual position is here, but yes, liberals and leftists do need to arm up. /m/LiberalGunOwners seems relevant here.
I don’t know what their position is either, but “arming up” isn’t going to do anything against a modern, relatively competent military. Back in the time the second amendment was written (as an example) there wasn’t that big a disparity in the resources the military could use and normal people. The citizens were less organized but had numbers on their side.
Today, there is absolutely nothing you can do with a gun vs drones, bombs, planes, etc. The only way you really prevail is if the government isn’t willing to slaughter its own citizens and guns aren’t helping there at all. In fact, the opposite may be true since it makes it easy for the government to label the people shooting at their officials as terrorists.
So, all of this is wrong, but also beside the point. The main point of arming up is so that we don’t all get murdered by fascists. I don’t mean that in the sense that fascists will take over the government, and then use the state apparatus to exterminate us. The murdering happens before and during their seizure of political power.
You’re more likely to kill yourself or a loved one than a home invader.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/07/guns-handguns-safety-homicide-killing-study
[snip]
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/guns-suicide/
You’re far more likely to drown if you own a pool in your backyard. Population level statistic applied to your individual lifestyle choices are meaningless and patronizing.
They’re completely meaningful and not at all patronizing. (Do you even know what that word means?)
Yup
Also wrong, and not really relevant to my point? I’m not talking about the value proposition of having a gun for dealing with run of the mill crime.
We’re (Americans) in a situation where we’re faced with an active and armed fascist movement, and those who would oppose that movement have systematically disarmed themselves because “guns bad”. What’s your plan for when they decide to remind us that “political power grows out of the barrel of a gun”?
Don’t bother consulting your canned talking points, you actually have to think about this one for yourself.
Not wrong, in that the studies are valid, and completely relevant to your point.
Guns kill their owners far more often than they kill home invaders and other intruders.
“You’re wrong” does not constitute a counterargument.
So the scenario is fascists are just roaming around murdering liberals at a point before they seize political power? What are the police doing? If the police are looking the other way, the fascists already have political power. So what you’re talking about doesn’t seem at all realistic.
Even if we look to one of the most extreme examples in history -Nazi Germany - it still didn’t happen remotely like what you’re apparently concerned about.
I’ll go ahead and respond to your other post as well:
This makes the value proposition look even worse. At least run of the mill crime has a semi-realistic chance of happening. Doing something that has negative value in normal times and only pays off if something very extreme like civilization breaking down occurs is kind of irrational.
You’ll get further in life if you don’t make a straw man out of positions you don’t agree with. Although, admittedly, you can get pretty far on straw men and Gish gallops.
Anyway:
If we basically have to worry about warlords wandering around killing people at will then civilization already is done.
I don’t plan my life around everyone being raptured away, aliens landing or civilization completely breaking down. It’s irrational to make real sacrifices or do things that require a meaningful tradeoff/risk to avoid such unlikely events.
I’m pretty sure Mao didn’t mean “If you have a gun, you have political power” with that quote. The original quote was “以后要非常注意军事，须知政权是由枪杆子中取得的”. It’s not talking about random citizens with guns, it’s from the perspective of leading/governing countries.
Rather than get locked in a “someone is wrong on the internet” cycle, let’s put a pin in this. We’ve both read each others points, and found them unconvincing. Whatever audience we might hope to sway has thinned out. On reddit I would have just silently walked away at this point, but the threadiverse is small and we’re likely to encounter each other again.
I’m guessing that our disagreement just comes down to a liberal vs leftist divide, and possibly also American vs European. We’re not likely to bridge those as random internet commenters. So, TTFN.
Participation in the conversation is completely voluntary so it’s completely up to you if you want to respond.
You didn’t really argue your point though. You said “You’re wrong” and “… But what if bad stuff happens?” It’s not like we had an actual debate here. Maybe you didn’t find the points I made compelling, but at least I tried to explain my reasoning for reaching that position.
Any negative perception I have toward you personally really doesn’t have anything to do with the actuall disagreement, but your approach to “discussing” it. “Because guns bad”, “don’t bother consulting your canned talking points”, etc is not a good-faith approach to debate. If you actually care about fostering good relations in a fairly small community where you may run into people again, I’d suggest reexamining your methods.
I don’t think so. My position and what I’m arguing (although possibly incorrect) is purely based on what I see as the reality of the situation. A belief about whether guns are effective for preserving freedom against the government/fascists/whatever doesn’t have anything really to do with politics.
Which one of us is supposed to be the American and which one is supposed to be the European?
Alright, I’m down for a bit of meta discussion.
I have very little patience for online debate at this stage of my life. It’s not sufficient to really change the minds of people who have an established position, generally speaking. Unless I find the discussion inherently enjoyable, or I feel that I can sway some undecided people, I tend to just peace out. Not worth my time.
My goal here was to plug /m/LiberalGunOwners, in response to someone worrying about fascism and mentioning guns. Mainly trying to find “my people” and get them organized after the Great Reddit Diaspora.
In this context, you and weirdwallace75 come in with the talking points. Yes, talking points. They’re flawed, they’re patronizing, they’re uncompelling, and I’ve heard them many, many times before. They really are irrelevant to my concerns. “What about this fascist movement” is not addressed by “but you might hurt yourself”.
Once you did address my concern, it just revealed what I’m referring to as the “liberal vs leftist” divide. This divide reflects a difference in worldview. If you had my worldview, you’d be an anarchist. As a (presumably) liberal, you’re relatively less concerned about fascist movements, and your prescription for dealing with them is going to rely (relatively) more on institutions and less on direct action.
There isn’t really anything to be done about this divide. We’re just going to disagree.
That’s fine, of course. Don’t debate/discuss anything you don’t feel like debating, but you shouldn’t make a straw man out of the position of people you disagree with or be uncivil.
It’s not clear what exactly you’re accusing me of. Mindlessly parroting other peoples’ views?
If what I said is so weak and easily refuted it’s a little strange that the best rebuttal you can come up with is “you’re wrong”.
There’s a grain of truth here, but it’s kind of beside the point and you’re making some odd assumptions. Why do you think you know what I’m concerned about?
Once again, while I don’t doubt we also have fundamental philosophical differences, the current disagreement (from my side anyway) is about practical ways to deal with the issue. From a purely practical standpoint, I don’t think individual citizens owning guns is going to be effective or worth the tradeoff to prevent the kinds of risks you mentioned. I could be far left, I could be liberal, I could be far right, I could be a centrist: none of that would have any bearing on something that comes down to the question of “is this an effective tool for the task”.
I’m not an anarchist, so guessed correctly there. It’s not because I love governments, institutions, central authority or because I’m opposed to anarchy (or any philosophy/approach that isn’t hurting others). My personal philosophy is do whatever you want as long as it’s not harming other people/animals (I’m a Utilitiarian). So I’m pro whatever method leads to the most happiness/least suffering.
I always resent this braindead argument. There’s a huge difference between a country waging a foreign war and a country waging a war against its own cities and citizens. Insurgencies work and has been proven time and time again. See: Iraq
Indeed, in that the country isn’t generally going to have the will to massacre its own citizens. So it’s not that the citizens have a gun that is staying its hand, it’s the lack of desire to just go ahead and slaughter them. Part of that is going to come from the fact that the country’s military is made up of people who have these citizens as their friends, neighbors, etc.
So having a gun isn’t helping you at all in that situation.
So these insurgents control Iraq now? They “won”?
Also, it’s not really a comparable situation: dealing with insurgents halfway across the world is harder than dealing with them in your backyard. The US was also not really trying to take over and just rule the country, they were at least half-heartedly trying to set up a government that could manage stuff. In addition, the middle east and oil is strategically important to the US but insurgents in Iraq are obviously much less of a pressing concern than insurgents in the US. Naturally the US isn’t going to invest the same level of resources and go to the same lengths to deal with those problems in Iraq compared to what it would do if that was happening in its own backyard. Finally, a lot of the insurgents were religious extremists. Even if every liberal in the US was armed, do you think we/they would really go to those lengths? I think we’re just too used to living comfortably and don’t really believe anything with that level of fanaticism to be running around with an AK waging a guerrilla war even if we had the AK.
The insurgents lost in Iraq. I know you stopped paying attention when FOX News moved on, but the Iraqi government won.
Why would you think I watch Fox news? My bad, mixed up Afghanistan and Iraq. But I’m sure Iraq isn’t far behind.