I’m happy you are doing the same, and discussing civilly. It’s the only way we can understand each other. Hopefully the quality of discussion will be better on this platform - I think I had a grand total of three or four legitimate conversations on Reddit over the course of several years, so at least we’re off to a decent start.
And yes, you’re right about the definition of capitalism. The terms capital, ownership, private, and means of production are unfortunately not that clear when people coming from different perspectives have different definitions of all those component parts, so I was trying to phrase a bit of my perspective of it in less ideologically-loaded terms.
It’s not surprising you’d feel that way about anarcho-capitalism if you believe money is evil. I think money is man’s greatest invention, the foundation of peaceful cooperation, and primarily good.
I know you already touched on it, but could you explain in more detail why you think money is inherently evil? My view is - there are a very limited number of ways people can interact with each other to obtain things they need or don’t have. If you wish to obtain something from someone else, the fundamental options are trade, beg, steal, or enslave. Outside of reshaping the nature of man into one of complete selflessness, I think the only consistently good option there is trade - which money enables us to do very efficiently. That’s probably already a lot to unpack, but I’d like to hear your thoughts.
It might be easier to describe why money causes problems by contrasting with an alternative.
A simpler society could enjoy socialising and bartering for trade.
A simpler society could freely give what they make and refuse to help people that don’t contribute.
A complex society could run computer models to automate and simplify advanced logistics, while still giving everyone personal control within reason.
A complex society could break down into much smaller communities and democratically decide allocations of work, with minor threats of authoritarian interactions.
Money can absolutely help start and simplify trade, and in the early days it was likely beneficial. Money these days though, has become a religion of sort, where people don’t know how things interact other than monetary value. They don’t get the benefits of social interactions through the hardships of barter, they can detach socially like a billionaire can, and even buy friends and status, charity orgs and can ultimately manipulate so much of their lives, that they destroy aspects of themselves with it.
There are tons of reasons why the USD is toilet paper for example. It used to be money, and now its currency. That change slipped past most peoples awareness because of how complex this system is. Corruption through excessive complexity. Secret doubling of USDs over the last 4 or so years wouldn’t even be known by a quarter of the people here.
Bonus trump projection quote from twitter. iirc “The Chinese yuan has been weaponized to hyper-inflate at the pull of a trigger, invalidating their debts”
I think simple trade and letting go of a complex life is fun and enriching. We as kids will clean up for fun, until the first time we are forced to :P society is the same. Id just fix the pothole if it was a dirt road. Bit harder these days as id probably break something by putting dirt onto a bitumen road. I want to work a bit in many fields, but under this current system i have to “win” a job and abuse myself in the process, just to be a slave under totalitarian workplaces.
Now I have a question for you. How do you feel about companies being the most totalitarian aspect of our lives?
We show up or get fired.
We need a doctor note or cant have a day off/get fired.
We dress and act how directed or get fired.
We work when told, for as long as told or get fired.
Now all this in combination with most other work places being just as bad, and poor social safety nets. You realistically have to submit or die. I take their control as threats against my life, no different than slavery. We do have some options, but they are really bad most of the time. Nothing can really allow an average person without luck to break free of cycles of poverty and submission to totalitarian businesses.
Also, we spend most of our lives realistically tied to, or at work. The freedoms I lose from work exceed the freedoms I lose through direct govt action.
I’m happy you are doing the same, and discussing civilly. It’s the only way we can understand each other. Hopefully the quality of discussion will be better on this platform - I think I had a grand total of three or four legitimate conversations on Reddit over the course of several years, so at least we’re off to a decent start.
And yes, you’re right about the definition of capitalism. The terms capital, ownership, private, and means of production are unfortunately not that clear when people coming from different perspectives have different definitions of all those component parts, so I was trying to phrase a bit of my perspective of it in less ideologically-loaded terms.
It’s not surprising you’d feel that way about anarcho-capitalism if you believe money is evil. I think money is man’s greatest invention, the foundation of peaceful cooperation, and primarily good.
I know you already touched on it, but could you explain in more detail why you think money is inherently evil? My view is - there are a very limited number of ways people can interact with each other to obtain things they need or don’t have. If you wish to obtain something from someone else, the fundamental options are trade, beg, steal, or enslave. Outside of reshaping the nature of man into one of complete selflessness, I think the only consistently good option there is trade - which money enables us to do very efficiently. That’s probably already a lot to unpack, but I’d like to hear your thoughts.
It might be easier to describe why money causes problems by contrasting with an alternative.
Money can absolutely help start and simplify trade, and in the early days it was likely beneficial. Money these days though, has become a religion of sort, where people don’t know how things interact other than monetary value. They don’t get the benefits of social interactions through the hardships of barter, they can detach socially like a billionaire can, and even buy friends and status, charity orgs and can ultimately manipulate so much of their lives, that they destroy aspects of themselves with it.
There are tons of reasons why the USD is toilet paper for example. It used to be money, and now its currency. That change slipped past most peoples awareness because of how complex this system is. Corruption through excessive complexity. Secret doubling of USDs over the last 4 or so years wouldn’t even be known by a quarter of the people here.
Bonus trump projection quote from twitter. iirc “The Chinese yuan has been weaponized to hyper-inflate at the pull of a trigger, invalidating their debts”
I think simple trade and letting go of a complex life is fun and enriching. We as kids will clean up for fun, until the first time we are forced to :P society is the same. Id just fix the pothole if it was a dirt road. Bit harder these days as id probably break something by putting dirt onto a bitumen road. I want to work a bit in many fields, but under this current system i have to “win” a job and abuse myself in the process, just to be a slave under totalitarian workplaces.
Now I have a question for you. How do you feel about companies being the most totalitarian aspect of our lives?
Now all this in combination with most other work places being just as bad, and poor social safety nets. You realistically have to submit or die. I take their control as threats against my life, no different than slavery. We do have some options, but they are really bad most of the time. Nothing can really allow an average person without luck to break free of cycles of poverty and submission to totalitarian businesses.
Also, we spend most of our lives realistically tied to, or at work. The freedoms I lose from work exceed the freedoms I lose through direct govt action.
Long reply, excuse the mess.