We could have just ran a popular candidate that helped people for four years instead of spending that time what to do about the unpopular candidate not being able to decisively beat the worst president in the history of America.
A random empty suit off the street would easily beat trump.
You are right, but we’re kind of past the point where saying so is useful. But if Biden resigns and hands the reigns to Kamala, no way in hell should anyone accept another sham primary because she is an encombant. I’m so sick of these supposedly pro-democracy Democrats and their entire bullshit primary system.
Biden, for whatever reason, is an extremely unlikable president. Undeniably so. These two candidates might literally be the only two candidates that could lose to the other. Sad state of affairs.
Personally I think Bernie would still easily steam roll trump and is far more popular than Biden. Only way he would run tho is if Biden stepped down which he won’t… but that’s sorta the problem
I don’t think you can say what Bernie would do if Biden stepped down, he has stated that he will not run precisely because Biden is running again and he doesn’t want to make any voters think he was an option, the incumbent is just automatically going to win the primary. He doesn’t want to sour any voters that really wanted him to win the primary when there is no chance he will win going up against an incumbent. If Biden stepped down and it was an open DNC primary then I think Bernie would almost certainly run again.
You are being weirdly stubborn in considering actual possibilities. I get that we are likely stuck with Biden but that’s because Biden is going to run again, not because there are no other options. Biden is not a good choice though and he should honestly step down, there are way better choices. Newsom would also be better than Biden and you could be sure if there was a primary with no incumbent in it he would be in there.
You are like a broken record. No democrat is going to run against incumbent it would be pointless, there is no chance they will win a dnc primary with Biden in the race. The incumbent always wins the primary and everyone knows that except apparently you, but that doesn’t make Biden the best choice, far from it. Especially with the dnc canceling primaries where progressives might actually win like NH. The Marianne williamson run was just a protest run, she didn’t think she would win.
The problem is Biden is running again despite him saying in 2020 that he would be a 1 term president.
He’s a proven leader, appeals to many on all sides of the political spectrum, and the supreme court has ruled they can’t keep someone off the ballot, and neither can states, so if the Senate Democrats don’t stop it then there’s nothing that can be done about it.
If the leader of an insurrection can be on the ballot, a foreign born American citizen can.
Yeah, that’s kinda my point. He’s ineligible, but so is trump. The Supreme Court said that only Congress can keep someone from running, and the current Congress won’t do it for trump, and may not do it for someone running as a Democrat, if they could beat trump.
He’s not running because he didn’t think he could, but the general hasn’t started, so he has time.
If you have a working strategy to get there, I’m all ears. Despite Biden’s lack of popularity, the vast majority of Democratic voters seem to be in the “don’t challenge an encombant” camp.
Still not seeing a plan. My state hasn’t voted yet, and I won’t be voting for Biden, but I still know he is the nominee. It’s not even really possible for him to lose at this point, and everyone else has dropped out. The party could replace him, but I don’t see that happening without some kind of major medical episode.
No, you just keep ignoring it, I said it a long time ago…
A random empty suit off the street would easily beat trump
We run someone else in the general.
It cost a literal billion dollars for Biden to win his first presidential election. And that was by like 30k votes in a few states. He’s less popular now, especially in those states due to his actions in Israel.
Do you legitimately think a random American couldn’t be trump with a billion dollars?
Because it’s not going to be cheaper for Biden this time.
The DNC can list whoever they want there, regardless of what happens in any primary
The last three elections they’ve picked geriatric unpopular candidates and refuse to listen to voter feedback.
Sooner or later you need to realize:
“vote blue no matter who” is fucking you
The DNC needs voters more than voters need the DNC.
Hell, look at what Biden did in NH. He pulled out of the primary because the DNC yanked the delegates, then Biden spent a bunch on a write in campaign and bragged he “won”.
But I’m blocking right after I send this. You’re just repeating the same shit over and over again, it’s like talking to a brikwall.
This is actually the first time it’s been removed – for some reason a bunch of copies of it going back a few days all got nuked at once this morning.
I actually don’t really hard-disagree with removing it. To me it’s extremely productive to the conversation and I didn’t see the point in having to retype all that stuff out for every thread where the exact same arguments come out, but it is also clearly a repost; maybe it’s better for the mods to just evenly apply all the rules to all the comments instead of trying to play the game of “well I feel this particular way about this particular comment so it can stay / so it has to go.”
To me, I’m fine just rephrasing if it comes up in the future or linking to it or something. I don’t get the feeling that mods are deliberately removing it specifically because of the viewpoint of it.
Maybe if they removed all the propaganda, you’d have a case. Removing only one side’s propaganda and not the other is still being compromised.
Especially if the propaganda on the side being removed is just a collection of true things, and the propaganda on the side being left up is about half lies.
Most if not all far-left rhetoric is easily disproven misinformation and propaganda. If they’re removing anything that’s demonstrably false, good for them.
I love how he throws that out like some kind of gotcha 😃
I mean, I think what he’s trying to say is a little more coherent argument: That Biden’s doing it wrong, and should be reforming the student loan services instead of doing programs to explicitly forgive portions of debt for specific borrowers. In which case my question would be this: The scorecard for this week is:
Biden: Gave $6 billion loan relief
FuglyDuck: Gave $0 loan relief
So it seems weird if FuglyDuck is giving Biden feedback on what is the right way to give student loan relief, like Biden’s just fucking it up when it’s so obvious that if FuglyDuck could get in there he could set everything right with a different approach. As we all know, getting big new things done in government is actually super simple.
Now I think it’s you being a bit ridiculous. By that logic, no American can ever legitimately criticize a Presidency.
There are reasons why Biden didn’t take other approaches available to him, and they aren’t laudable ones. His donors don’t want a precedent set that would make it easy for a future president to relieve even more debt.
Biden gets credit for what he has done, but ultimately the limit comes from what the establishment negotiates with the banks. It’s way past time for leadership that will remind the banks that they weren’t the ones elected.
Now I think it’s you being a bit ridiculous. By that logic, no American can ever legitimately criticize a Presidency.
That’s fair. I wasn’t trying to say “you can’t criticize the president because you’re not in that position,” but that is sorta what I said, and that’s a little ridiculous, you’re right.
What I was meaning to say has one important caveat though, see: So on overall greenhouse gas emissions, and on overall amount of money forgiven on student loans, Biden has a great record. The total number of tons and total number of dollars is moving more significantly in the right direction than anyone else who’s ever been president. And, he objectively tried to do a lot more than he did, but had to pare it back because other powerful people in government told him no. All of that is a little hard for FuglyDuck to directly argue against, because it’s… well, it’s true. So he’s doing a little rhetorical dodge where he picks some element that’s one small-minority piece of the whole issue, and says if Biden really cared about student loans or climate or whatever, he’d have done this piece in a different fashion. So clearly he’s doing damage on purpose and we need to not vote for him.
It’s honestly a pretty solid strategy for FuglyDuck to focus in on single issues like that, because I don’t really know the issues well enough to say he’s wrong. So what I’m saying instead is, look, Biden achieved objectively a good overall record on this issue. To pick out some piece of his overall big picture and say, sure he’s winning the game, but he obviously doesn’t really care, or else this minority piece would be different, to me isn’t reasonable.
It’d be different if FuglyDuck was saying “Sure, Biden achieved a significant success with the climate bill, but I still think he fucked up on decision X.” That shows he’s in it for some honest purpose even if he and I disagree on some details. The fact that he ignores me repeatedly when I’m referring to the bigger picture, and keeps insisting the individual issues are the only things that matter (and only the ones that happen to line up with his overall narrative), makes me a lot less trusting of the overall “Biden hates the climate” picture he seems to be trying to paint.
Now I think it’s you being a bit ridiculous. By that logic, no American can ever legitimately criticize a Presidency.
By all means criticize but don’t make it sound like he’s completely ineffective or gutless because he couldn’t squeeze out more given the extreme levels of obstruction from Congress and the clear conservative bias in the SCOTUS.
This has been a known problem for two or three decades
And Biden wasn’t President for two or three decades.
he’s taken almost zero action to actually resolve the problem
Funny how you people started pitching a fit whenever anyone suggested reforming tuition rather than one-time handouts. But now that Biden has actually started doing the handouts, now you’re pitching a fit that he isn’t reforming tuition.
Mostly by corporate subsidies for things they were either already doing or wanting to do.
This statement is, as far as I can tell, simply made up. Here’s a quantitative comparison of what they were already doing or wanting to do, versus the plan after the climate bill.
Simply removing government subsidies from oil would be very nearly sufficient to that end, too.
Good luck with that. Pop quiz: Which industry gives a fuck of a lot of money to congress? Follow-up question, in order for something that’s a good idea to become law, does it have to (a) go through congress or (b) nothing further, being president means you get everything you want with no other branch of government involved?
It’s common knowledge that the climate bill is not nearly enough action. But, it’s also clear to me looking at it that (a) it was extremely impressive to be able to get that amount of climate improvement through the current US government to become law, and (b) giving Biden shit for it because the rest of government blocked him from doing more, seems almost guaranteed to weaken his ability (or anyone else’s) to do more with a second term.
This whole mythology that “well we have to give Biden a hard time over the climate, because he’s already attempting to do a lot but more action is needed, and if Trump wins and reverses every small bit of progress anyone’s been able to make then that’s just the price of environmental success” is, to me, not very sensible. It’s like shooting allied soldiers to help win World War 2. It’s like not bringing a parachute because you’re really really sure you don’t want your plane to crash. It doesn’t make any fucking sense.
he -personally- approved the willow project permits
To me, “does he care about the climate?” boils down to, what has he done for the climate, and the best way to measure that is with the emissions impacts of his actions.
Doing more and blocking more development projects on top of that sounds like a great idea, yes.
The vast majority of which should have been forgiven decades ago, and wasn’t because of scammy loan services.
Glad we’re in agreement that it’s good to have an American president who’s finally doing good things instead of just neoliberal horror! Yes, it’s nice. I would like to see more of these things happen.
He does just enough to mollify you while with the other hand funneling money into corporations.
As with a lot of things you’re saying, this one seems to be simply made up. The reality is actually the complete opposite – Biden is spending literally trillions of dollars on things like the climate bill and student loan forgiveness, and funding it by raising taxes on corporations. His budget for 2025 is set to do more of the same. By way of example, Amazon went from having a $1.2 billion tax credit to now paying $3 billion per quarter after Biden’s 2022 corporate tax reforms.
I am not a mod here; I think you have me confused with someone else. Have I given you the impression that I’m unable to argue for myself without resorting to asserting some sort of authority? I actually think this kind of disagreement is good for the discourse; I just think it would also be good to have a separate place that wasn’t subject to shouty bad faith people clogging up the comments in quite so high a number.
It’s like slapping a tourniquet on an arterial laceration
Your whole student loan analysis I’ll more or less agree with overall, and to some extent with its application to other domains. I do think if someone’s artery is cut that you should usually put a tourniquet on. It seems like Biden’s been putting tourniquets on, and the other group has been trying to fistfight him for doing even that much, and trying to go through the accident victim’s pockets and threatening bystanders. And they have weapons. And, somehow, he managed to get some important tourniquets on even so.
You’re making a completely valid presentation of why the patient isn’t yet “fine” after the tourniquet. But going further from there to “I don’t see why I should support the tourniquet guy over the give-me-his-wallet-and-empty-your-own-pockets-while-we’re-at-it people” doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
Biden’s best move on climate was a subtle one that went almost unnoticed. The Democrats quietly slipped language into the inflation reduction act that reclassified CO2 as a pollutant, thus restoring the ability for the EPA to regulate it that has been stripped by the Supreme Court. That’s Republican level hardball that we almost never see from the Democrats.
LOL, read my post again. My entire point was that Biden used a clever ploy to give control back to the EPA after the SC killed it. Making CO2 a pollutant bypasses that ruling.
If your goal is to reinforce the pro-Biden crowd, good job. If your goal is to convince anyone who is anti-Biden, this won’t do.
Fluff has opposite effects for people with different biases. Someone with a bias in favor of what you’re saying reads all the fluff as “yup this is a metric fuckload of facts that weighs in favor of my heuristical understanding of the world”, while others would read it as “this person is obviously reaching and fluffing up the pro-Biden rhetoric, so is any of it impressive?”
I’ll be more concrete in my criticism, you mention both the climate action (materially important and good to mention) and also his failed attempt to pass marijuana legislation. Even bringing up marijuana legislation when the kinds of discussions we’re having are about genocide, climate change, employment, etc. seems out of place, but you bring up a failed attempt to do this comparatively extremely unimportant thing, it reads as you having an immense bias and reaching for anything you can. Same thing with his failure to get proper student loan relief to people.
Essentially the only actual legitimate win he has is the passing of the climate action. Wage growth and unemployment shrinking are parts of natural boom bust cycles, not any executive orders he’s put in place or action signed into law by Democrats.
For what it’s worth I’m not a moderate, I’m a socialist, so I’m not normally the “truth is in the middle of two positions” type of person, but your comment is the exception to the rule, where you’re not spewing out just straight falsehoods but you do have an obvious bias and are fluffing up his achievements more than deserved.
Marijuana legislation has less to do with marijuana as more to do with prisoners in prison for marijuana use, distribution, and or possession. It’s a step toward decriminalization of most drugs which accounts for up to 25% of state facility incarceration depending on the state. Why the fuck am I paying tax dollars to keep a drug user in a cell? Why would you want to pay to feed them 3 meals a day?
You missed the forest for the trees. He failed to get this passed. It’s absolutely fluff to reach to Biden’s failures in a list of his greatest accomplishments.
Obviously I agree on decriminalizing marijuana, but that’s not what my comment or the broader discussion was about.
I don’t know if you genuinely missed the point of my comment, or if you’re just arguing in bad faith.
Biden has given a massive boost to unions in multiple ways, restarted enforcement of anti-trust laws, eased enforcement of Marijuana laws / moved towards decriminalization, and has forgiven $138 billion in student debt.
I’m no fan of Biden and we should definitely demand better, but it’s ridiculous to claim he hasn’t done just one thing to make people’s lives better. This list is just off the top of my head, except the figure for student debt. I didn’t even include climate issues since there has been some bad to subtract from the good, but he’s been far better than any Republican would be.
Just appoint a head of the DEA who won’t arrest people for pot and pardon everyone in prison for possession/distribution. He chooses to allow the violence of criminalization to continue.
has forgiven $138 billion in student debt.
The overwhelming majority of that was due to a bush-era law.
We saw how much unilateral power the executive has under trump. We see how capable the democrats are of whipping the vote when it’s funding to bomb foreigners or lock them in cages. What would it take for you to realize they are not unable to do these things, but unwilling? I struggle to imagine a scenario that would prove that, which hasn’t already happened.
Just appoint a head of the DEA who won’t arrest people for pot and pardon everyone in prison for possession/distribution. He chooses to allow the violence of criminalization to continue.
You know he already pardoned everyone who was in federal prison for simple possession, 2 years ago, right?
And passed a bill for full federal legalization, which the Republicans defeated in the senate?
We saw how much unilateral power the executive has under trump.
Yes, Trump famously got everything he wanted. Ukraine never got their military aid that he tried to block, and the Department of Justice famously bent to his every whim and prosecuted his political opponents when he kept ordering them to. I remember it well.
We see how capable the democrats are of whipping the vote when it’s funding to bomb foreigners or lock them in cages.
This is actually the most heinously dishonest of the things you’ve been saying but I have become discouraged and don’t want to spend too much more time researching and illustrating why this is all wrong.
Family separation at the border was already dead when Biden took office; it only ran for about a year in the middle of his presidency. But Biden did start the task force to find the kids’ families and reunite them. The flow of immigrant children was quite literally in the exact opposite direction of what you’re saying under Biden: From being imprisoned in cages to being back with their families. Look up your own citation for it, I’m getting genuinely irritated that I have to spend time talking about this.
And passed a bill for full federal legalization, which the Republicans defeated in the senate?
The president doesn’t pass bills, and this one wasn’t passed by those that do pass bills. Tell progressives again that they don’t know how government works.
I’m gonna cut to the chase of a longer comment I typed out. The only part that really needs to be said:
“So, since there’s no way to argue with it factually, the combatant seizes on a deliberate misunderstanding of what I was saying and tries to reframe the whole conversation around that misunderstanding, in order to create a thing to disagree about which isn’t the factually-indefensible original thing to disagree about.”
The rest and the context are pretty self-explanatory.
You wanted to give him credit for passing something that didn’t pass and that he can’t pass. If you don’t want people getting on your case for it, don’t tell others that they don’t know how government works.
He proposed legalizing it. Nothing passed. Proposals and failures are not accomplishments. He doesn’t get credit for BBB for the same reason: it failed.
You may be willing to give him credit for failures. I give him credit for his successes, such as selling weapons to Netanyahu for genocide.
You seized on literally the only thing in my long-enough-to-be-tedious list that was an attempt instead of an outcome, and are trying to spin it into me giving him credit only for failures. I’m almost impressed.
The first two items in my list represented the successful outcome of his second attempt at something, after the first attempt was blocked, but those $144 billion and 40% reduction numbers are the outcome (after the initial much bigger attempt). Then comes the attempt at marijuana legalization. Every other item is simply the outcome.
I think you should get some sort of award for how vaguely plausible you make this argument sound, given the yawning gulf between it and what actually happened, and the fact that the evidence for it not happening the way you said is literally just right up there in the comments up above (not buried away somewhere in some government document that there could be legitimate debate about how to interpret.)
Any new DEA administrator would have to be approved by the Senate, and an an appointment that was a defacto decriminalization vote would not pass.
The bar that was set in this discussion was that Biden hasn’t done anything to improve lives. I have already made a comment elsewhere in this thread indicating that I do not suffer from the delusions you are putting on me. Biden absolutely should be doing more, that just wasn’t the bar presented.
I LOVE seeing this nonsense downvoted. It gives me hope that lemmy is not going to turn into an echo chamber for manufactured outrage and misinformation.
Distinguishing between far-left rhetoric and right-wing propaganda is virtually indistinguishable nowadays though. And I think the MAGA trolls want it that way.
Gotta love being called an evil shitlib for suggesting that Joe Biden isn’t turbo hitler and the current system, while flawed, can be improved and burning it all down would likely result in far more hardships than reforming what we’ve got.
Oh, come on. Centrists have been saying that everyone to their left is all the way to their right since before Clinton lost to every centrist’s second choice.
Do you have a source for this? Reddit’s mods on big or politically-or-commercially-relevant subs were very clearly compromised, but I hadn’t seen any indication of that on lemmy.world and I was kind of hoping that it would be a lot more resistant.
Do you have an example or two? I know the lemmy.ml mods are shit, that is not news to me, but I haven’t seen this happen on lemmy.world that I can remember.
Biden isn’t exactly my cup of tea but he’s more or less reasonable on the national field. And people should understand when you elect a president (despite what Trump would tell you), you are actually electing an administration, a structure of workforce based on certain values. As long as something crazy doesn’t happen that puts the speaker up there, for the most part it’s those ideas that are winning the elections.
The primary is performative, the DNC has been openly admitting they’re not interested in fair primaries go like a decade now, even openly saying if they don’t get the results they want, they’ll ignore results.
You might not have realized it yet, but you personally don’t need to understand something for it to be true
And people should understand when you elect a president (despite what Trump would tell you), you are actually electing an administration, a structure of workforce based on certain values.
A-fuckin-goddamn-men.
This is what I always had a problem with as far as Trump is concerned. Trump only cares about Trump and he also believes he knows everything. He hires “yes men” not people who will inform him, not that he’s the type to accept information from others (unless it’s a lie meant to disparage his opponents.) That’s way more dangerous to us than his stupid Twitter usage and drawing on weather maps.
It’s also why, although I don’t love Biden, I’m ok with him. I know he’s only responsible for putting the rubber stamp on ideas his administration is coming up with. He may issue initial goals, but the administration has the expertise and does the work and they don’t exactly seem like a bunch of ghouls in this administration.
this is the shitty world we live in for 2024. Unless one of these geezers dies this is what its going to look like.
And no, a random empty suit off the street would not easily beat trump; when the corporate media aparatus is pointed at you things will always be like this because they want the worst guy to win, always.
I have a feeling all those crazy 2016 Clinton supporters were IP banned from most major social media sites.
So now they’re on Lemmy.
Theyre just as bad as trump voters. They don’t care about issues or what a candidate achieves if they win. They just want their “team” to win an election.
That’s their end goal, so if anyone ever says a negative thing about their teams candidate, they take it personal and say the worst thing you can ever do is admit any flaws.
It’s blind loyalty to a person. And that shit is fucking dangerous.
I just can’t support that shit. I paid attention in history class. If the only two political options are that far gone, there’s been other political parties in America before, and there can be again.
We could have just ran a popular candidate that helped people for four years instead of spending that time what to do about the unpopular candidate not being able to decisively beat the worst president in the history of America.
A random empty suit off the street would easily beat trump.
Probably would be handling genocides better too
Give it a rest.
Removed by mod
You are right, but we’re kind of past the point where saying so is useful. But if Biden resigns and hands the reigns to Kamala, no way in hell should anyone accept another sham primary because she is an encombant. I’m so sick of these supposedly pro-democracy Democrats and their entire bullshit primary system.
Just fyi, it’s “incumbent”
Thanks
Bruh, the general hasn’t even started…
It’s not too late to run someone that can beat trump.
Name one person that can beat Trump, and provide evidence to show it’s possible.
Biden, for whatever reason, is an extremely unlikable president. Undeniably so. These two candidates might literally be the only two candidates that could lose to the other. Sad state of affairs.
Personally I think Bernie would still easily steam roll trump and is far more popular than Biden. Only way he would run tho is if Biden stepped down which he won’t… but that’s sorta the problem
Bernie isn’t going to run, regardless of Biden stepping down. So he doesn’t count. Name someone currently in the running- that can beat Trump.
I don’t think you can say what Bernie would do if Biden stepped down, he has stated that he will not run precisely because Biden is running again and he doesn’t want to make any voters think he was an option, the incumbent is just automatically going to win the primary. He doesn’t want to sour any voters that really wanted him to win the primary when there is no chance he will win going up against an incumbent. If Biden stepped down and it was an open DNC primary then I think Bernie would almost certainly run again.
You are being weirdly stubborn in considering actual possibilities. I get that we are likely stuck with Biden but that’s because Biden is going to run again, not because there are no other options. Biden is not a good choice though and he should honestly step down, there are way better choices. Newsom would also be better than Biden and you could be sure if there was a primary with no incumbent in it he would be in there.
I think I can say safely- and honestly say that he’s not an option.
Who has a chance to beat Trump THAT IS RUNNING.
You are like a broken record. No democrat is going to run against incumbent it would be pointless, there is no chance they will win a dnc primary with Biden in the race. The incumbent always wins the primary and everyone knows that except apparently you, but that doesn’t make Biden the best choice, far from it. Especially with the dnc canceling primaries where progressives might actually win like NH. The Marianne williamson run was just a protest run, she didn’t think she would win.
The problem is Biden is running again despite him saying in 2020 that he would be a 1 term president.
Arnold Schwarzenegger.
He’s a proven leader, appeals to many on all sides of the political spectrum, and the supreme court has ruled they can’t keep someone off the ballot, and neither can states, so if the Senate Democrats don’t stop it then there’s nothing that can be done about it.
If the leader of an insurrection can be on the ballot, a foreign born American citizen can.
Hes not running. Also, he’s ineligible- try again.
Yeah, that’s kinda my point. He’s ineligible, but so is trump. The Supreme Court said that only Congress can keep someone from running, and the current Congress won’t do it for trump, and may not do it for someone running as a Democrat, if they could beat trump.
He’s not running because he didn’t think he could, but the general hasn’t started, so he has time.
I asked you to provide a name of someone that can beat Trump in November. Not hypotheticals.
Provide the name.
Should we just go through everyone in the phonebook? Literally most people are better than Trump and/or Biden.
If you have a working strategy to get there, I’m all ears. Despite Biden’s lack of popularity, the vast majority of Democratic voters seem to be in the “don’t challenge an encombant” camp.
Why would you think that?
The DNC canceled NH’s primary because it’s been going progressive. And less than a third of voters would be happy if Biden was president.
Voters didn’t get a say, lots of states haven’t even held.primaries yet
Still not seeing a plan. My state hasn’t voted yet, and I won’t be voting for Biden, but I still know he is the nominee. It’s not even really possible for him to lose at this point, and everyone else has dropped out. The party could replace him, but I don’t see that happening without some kind of major medical episode.
No, you just keep ignoring it, I said it a long time ago…
We run someone else in the general.
It cost a literal billion dollars for Biden to win his first presidential election. And that was by like 30k votes in a few states. He’s less popular now, especially in those states due to his actions in Israel.
Do you legitimately think a random American couldn’t be trump with a billion dollars?
Because it’s not going to be cheaper for Biden this time.
I wasn’t as clear as I thought. Since you and I don’t get to choose the nominee, what’s the plan to get Biden replaced on the ballot?
The DNC can list whoever they want there, regardless of what happens in any primary
The last three elections they’ve picked geriatric unpopular candidates and refuse to listen to voter feedback.
Sooner or later you need to realize:
“vote blue no matter who” is fucking you
The DNC needs voters more than voters need the DNC.
Hell, look at what Biden did in NH. He pulled out of the primary because the DNC yanked the delegates, then Biden spent a bunch on a write in campaign and bragged he “won”.
But I’m blocking right after I send this. You’re just repeating the same shit over and over again, it’s like talking to a brikwall.
bUtTrUmPiSwOrSe!
Legitimately just do one thing for people that makes a visible, palpable change in their lives for the better and you’ll never lose an election again.
Removed by mod
Thank you for this. It’s great to see the anti-Biden propaganda being struck down with facts.
Except the mods are compromised so after a few hours it always gets removed.
This is actually the first time it’s been removed – for some reason a bunch of copies of it going back a few days all got nuked at once this morning.
I actually don’t really hard-disagree with removing it. To me it’s extremely productive to the conversation and I didn’t see the point in having to retype all that stuff out for every thread where the exact same arguments come out, but it is also clearly a repost; maybe it’s better for the mods to just evenly apply all the rules to all the comments instead of trying to play the game of “well I feel this particular way about this particular comment so it can stay / so it has to go.”
To me, I’m fine just rephrasing if it comes up in the future or linking to it or something. I don’t get the feeling that mods are deliberately removing it specifically because of the viewpoint of it.
They removed propaganda. Nothing wrong with that.
Maybe if they removed all the propaganda, you’d have a case. Removing only one side’s propaganda and not the other is still being compromised.
Especially if the propaganda on the side being removed is just a collection of true things, and the propaganda on the side being left up is about half lies.
Most if not all far-left rhetoric is easily disproven misinformation and propaganda. If they’re removing anything that’s demonstrably false, good for them.
Sure but they’re not removing far-left rhetoric. They’re removing centrist rhetoric, and leaving up the far-left misinformation and propaganda.
Removed by mod
Yet it wasn’t until this Presidency.
I love how he throws that out like some kind of gotcha 😃
I mean, I think what he’s trying to say is a little more coherent argument: That Biden’s doing it wrong, and should be reforming the student loan services instead of doing programs to explicitly forgive portions of debt for specific borrowers. In which case my question would be this: The scorecard for this week is:
So it seems weird if FuglyDuck is giving Biden feedback on what is the right way to give student loan relief, like Biden’s just fucking it up when it’s so obvious that if FuglyDuck could get in there he could set everything right with a different approach. As we all know, getting big new things done in government is actually super simple.
Now I think it’s you being a bit ridiculous. By that logic, no American can ever legitimately criticize a Presidency.
There are reasons why Biden didn’t take other approaches available to him, and they aren’t laudable ones. His donors don’t want a precedent set that would make it easy for a future president to relieve even more debt.
Biden gets credit for what he has done, but ultimately the limit comes from what the establishment negotiates with the banks. It’s way past time for leadership that will remind the banks that they weren’t the ones elected.
That’s fair. I wasn’t trying to say “you can’t criticize the president because you’re not in that position,” but that is sorta what I said, and that’s a little ridiculous, you’re right.
What I was meaning to say has one important caveat though, see: So on overall greenhouse gas emissions, and on overall amount of money forgiven on student loans, Biden has a great record. The total number of tons and total number of dollars is moving more significantly in the right direction than anyone else who’s ever been president. And, he objectively tried to do a lot more than he did, but had to pare it back because other powerful people in government told him no. All of that is a little hard for FuglyDuck to directly argue against, because it’s… well, it’s true. So he’s doing a little rhetorical dodge where he picks some element that’s one small-minority piece of the whole issue, and says if Biden really cared about student loans or climate or whatever, he’d have done this piece in a different fashion. So clearly he’s doing damage on purpose and we need to not vote for him.
It’s honestly a pretty solid strategy for FuglyDuck to focus in on single issues like that, because I don’t really know the issues well enough to say he’s wrong. So what I’m saying instead is, look, Biden achieved objectively a good overall record on this issue. To pick out some piece of his overall big picture and say, sure he’s winning the game, but he obviously doesn’t really care, or else this minority piece would be different, to me isn’t reasonable.
It’d be different if FuglyDuck was saying “Sure, Biden achieved a significant success with the climate bill, but I still think he fucked up on decision X.” That shows he’s in it for some honest purpose even if he and I disagree on some details. The fact that he ignores me repeatedly when I’m referring to the bigger picture, and keeps insisting the individual issues are the only things that matter (and only the ones that happen to line up with his overall narrative), makes me a lot less trusting of the overall “Biden hates the climate” picture he seems to be trying to paint.
I think we are in agreement. I don’t believe FuglyDuck is commenting on good faith.
By all means criticize but don’t make it sound like he’s completely ineffective or gutless because he couldn’t squeeze out more given the extreme levels of obstruction from Congress and the clear conservative bias in the SCOTUS.
It wasn’t me doing that.
Removed by mod
And Biden wasn’t President for two or three decades.
Funny how you people started pitching a fit whenever anyone suggested reforming tuition rather than one-time handouts. But now that Biden has actually started doing the handouts, now you’re pitching a fit that he isn’t reforming tuition.
Removed by mod
This statement is, as far as I can tell, simply made up. Here’s a quantitative comparison of what they were already doing or wanting to do, versus the plan after the climate bill.
Good luck with that. Pop quiz: Which industry gives a fuck of a lot of money to congress? Follow-up question, in order for something that’s a good idea to become law, does it have to (a) go through congress or (b) nothing further, being president means you get everything you want with no other branch of government involved?
It’s common knowledge that the climate bill is not nearly enough action. But, it’s also clear to me looking at it that (a) it was extremely impressive to be able to get that amount of climate improvement through the current US government to become law, and (b) giving Biden shit for it because the rest of government blocked him from doing more, seems almost guaranteed to weaken his ability (or anyone else’s) to do more with a second term.
This whole mythology that “well we have to give Biden a hard time over the climate, because he’s already attempting to do a lot but more action is needed, and if Trump wins and reverses every small bit of progress anyone’s been able to make then that’s just the price of environmental success” is, to me, not very sensible. It’s like shooting allied soldiers to help win World War 2. It’s like not bringing a parachute because you’re really really sure you don’t want your plane to crash. It doesn’t make any fucking sense.
Here’s a good summary of why he might have done that.
To me, “does he care about the climate?” boils down to, what has he done for the climate, and the best way to measure that is with the emissions impacts of his actions.
Doing more and blocking more development projects on top of that sounds like a great idea, yes.
Glad we’re in agreement that it’s good to have an American president who’s finally doing good things instead of just neoliberal horror! Yes, it’s nice. I would like to see more of these things happen.
Removed by mod
I am gonna use this thread as a testbed for a little AI moderation tool for observing who is operating in good faith within the discussion.
I’ve given you a little constructive criticism on your overall debate strategy in one of the other threads, if you’re interested to hear it.
As with a lot of things you’re saying, this one seems to be simply made up. The reality is actually the complete opposite – Biden is spending literally trillions of dollars on things like the climate bill and student loan forgiveness, and funding it by raising taxes on corporations. His budget for 2025 is set to do more of the same. By way of example, Amazon went from having a $1.2 billion tax credit to now paying $3 billion per quarter after Biden’s 2022 corporate tax reforms.
Removed by mod
I am not a mod here; I think you have me confused with someone else. Have I given you the impression that I’m unable to argue for myself without resorting to asserting some sort of authority? I actually think this kind of disagreement is good for the discourse; I just think it would also be good to have a separate place that wasn’t subject to shouty bad faith people clogging up the comments in quite so high a number.
Your whole student loan analysis I’ll more or less agree with overall, and to some extent with its application to other domains. I do think if someone’s artery is cut that you should usually put a tourniquet on. It seems like Biden’s been putting tourniquets on, and the other group has been trying to fistfight him for doing even that much, and trying to go through the accident victim’s pockets and threatening bystanders. And they have weapons. And, somehow, he managed to get some important tourniquets on even so.
You’re making a completely valid presentation of why the patient isn’t yet “fine” after the tourniquet. But going further from there to “I don’t see why I should support the tourniquet guy over the give-me-his-wallet-and-empty-your-own-pockets-while-we’re-at-it people” doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
Biden’s best move on climate was a subtle one that went almost unnoticed. The Democrats quietly slipped language into the inflation reduction act that reclassified CO2 as a pollutant, thus restoring the ability for the EPA to regulate it that has been stripped by the Supreme Court. That’s Republican level hardball that we almost never see from the Democrats.
Removed by mod
They had almost zero power. That is no longer true, and you have no idea what you are talking about. Furthermore, I don’t think you even care.
Removed by mod
LOL, read my post again. My entire point was that Biden used a clever ploy to give control back to the EPA after the SC killed it. Making CO2 a pollutant bypasses that ruling.
Do you believe the EPA is powerless?
Right, those climate subsidies that went only to corporations …… as I drive my EV that I could afford because of the government incentive
tl;dr Biden will lose because he’s not FDR.
If your goal is to reinforce the pro-Biden crowd, good job. If your goal is to convince anyone who is anti-Biden, this won’t do.
Fluff has opposite effects for people with different biases. Someone with a bias in favor of what you’re saying reads all the fluff as “yup this is a metric fuckload of facts that weighs in favor of my heuristical understanding of the world”, while others would read it as “this person is obviously reaching and fluffing up the pro-Biden rhetoric, so is any of it impressive?”
I’ll be more concrete in my criticism, you mention both the climate action (materially important and good to mention) and also his failed attempt to pass marijuana legislation. Even bringing up marijuana legislation when the kinds of discussions we’re having are about genocide, climate change, employment, etc. seems out of place, but you bring up a failed attempt to do this comparatively extremely unimportant thing, it reads as you having an immense bias and reaching for anything you can. Same thing with his failure to get proper student loan relief to people.
Essentially the only actual legitimate win he has is the passing of the climate action. Wage growth and unemployment shrinking are parts of natural boom bust cycles, not any executive orders he’s put in place or action signed into law by Democrats.
For what it’s worth I’m not a moderate, I’m a socialist, so I’m not normally the “truth is in the middle of two positions” type of person, but your comment is the exception to the rule, where you’re not spewing out just straight falsehoods but you do have an obvious bias and are fluffing up his achievements more than deserved.
Marijuana legislation has less to do with marijuana as more to do with prisoners in prison for marijuana use, distribution, and or possession. It’s a step toward decriminalization of most drugs which accounts for up to 25% of state facility incarceration depending on the state. Why the fuck am I paying tax dollars to keep a drug user in a cell? Why would you want to pay to feed them 3 meals a day?
You missed the forest for the trees. He failed to get this passed. It’s absolutely fluff to reach to Biden’s failures in a list of his greatest accomplishments.
Obviously I agree on decriminalizing marijuana, but that’s not what my comment or the broader discussion was about.
I don’t know if you genuinely missed the point of my comment, or if you’re just arguing in bad faith.
this is spam
Removed by mod
What about the genocide?
Biden has given a massive boost to unions in multiple ways, restarted enforcement of anti-trust laws, eased enforcement of Marijuana laws / moved towards decriminalization, and has forgiven $138 billion in student debt.
I’m no fan of Biden and we should definitely demand better, but it’s ridiculous to claim he hasn’t done just one thing to make people’s lives better. This list is just off the top of my head, except the figure for student debt. I didn’t even include climate issues since there has been some bad to subtract from the good, but he’s been far better than any Republican would be.
what is this “move to decriminalization”?
Just appoint a head of the DEA who won’t arrest people for pot and pardon everyone in prison for possession/distribution. He chooses to allow the violence of criminalization to continue.
The overwhelming majority of that was due to a bush-era law.
We saw how much unilateral power the executive has under trump. We see how capable the democrats are of whipping the vote when it’s funding to bomb foreigners or lock them in cages. What would it take for you to realize they are not unable to do these things, but unwilling? I struggle to imagine a scenario that would prove that, which hasn’t already happened.
You know he already pardoned everyone who was in federal prison for simple possession, 2 years ago, right?
And told the DEA to reschedule it
And passed a bill for full federal legalization, which the Republicans defeated in the senate?
Yes, Trump famously got everything he wanted. Ukraine never got their military aid that he tried to block, and the Department of Justice famously bent to his every whim and prosecuted his political opponents when he kept ordering them to. I remember it well.
This is actually the most heinously dishonest of the things you’ve been saying but I have become discouraged and don’t want to spend too much more time researching and illustrating why this is all wrong.
Family separation at the border was already dead when Biden took office; it only ran for about a year in the middle of his presidency. But Biden did start the task force to find the kids’ families and reunite them. The flow of immigrant children was quite literally in the exact opposite direction of what you’re saying under Biden: From being imprisoned in cages to being back with their families. Look up your own citation for it, I’m getting genuinely irritated that I have to spend time talking about this.
The president doesn’t pass bills, and this one wasn’t passed by those that do pass bills. Tell progressives again that they don’t know how government works.
I’m gonna cut to the chase of a longer comment I typed out. The only part that really needs to be said:
“So, since there’s no way to argue with it factually, the combatant seizes on a deliberate misunderstanding of what I was saying and tries to reframe the whole conversation around that misunderstanding, in order to create a thing to disagree about which isn’t the factually-indefensible original thing to disagree about.”
The rest and the context are pretty self-explanatory.
You wanted to give him credit for passing something that didn’t pass and that he can’t pass. If you don’t want people getting on your case for it, don’t tell others that they don’t know how government works.
He proposed legalizing it. Nothing passed. Proposals and failures are not accomplishments. He doesn’t get credit for BBB for the same reason: it failed.
You may be willing to give him credit for failures. I give him credit for his successes, such as selling weapons to Netanyahu for genocide.
You seized on literally the only thing in my long-enough-to-be-tedious list that was an attempt instead of an outcome, and are trying to spin it into me giving him credit only for failures. I’m almost impressed.
The first two items in my list represented the successful outcome of his second attempt at something, after the first attempt was blocked, but those $144 billion and 40% reduction numbers are the outcome (after the initial much bigger attempt). Then comes the attempt at marijuana legalization. Every other item is simply the outcome.
I think you should get some sort of award for how vaguely plausible you make this argument sound, given the yawning gulf between it and what actually happened, and the fact that the evidence for it not happening the way you said is literally just right up there in the comments up above (not buried away somewhere in some government document that there could be legitimate debate about how to interpret.)
Do you believe Biden should pardon everyone in prison for Marijuana-related crimes?
Any new DEA administrator would have to be approved by the Senate, and an an appointment that was a defacto decriminalization vote would not pass.
The bar that was set in this discussion was that Biden hasn’t done anything to improve lives. I have already made a comment elsewhere in this thread indicating that I do not suffer from the delusions you are putting on me. Biden absolutely should be doing more, that just wasn’t the bar presented.
Or you could just deny reality like some do
I LOVE seeing this nonsense downvoted. It gives me hope that lemmy is not going to turn into an echo chamber for manufactured outrage and misinformation.
Also helps that any instance that gets taken over by MAGA or Russian Trolls can be ejected
Distinguishing between far-left rhetoric and right-wing propaganda is virtually indistinguishable nowadays though. And I think the MAGA trolls want it that way.
Gotta love being called an evil shitlib for suggesting that Joe Biden isn’t turbo hitler and the current system, while flawed, can be improved and burning it all down would likely result in far more hardships than reforming what we’ve got.
Oh, come on. Centrists have been saying that everyone to their left is all the way to their right since before Clinton lost to every centrist’s second choice.
Quite a few instances block lemmy.world because it’s so overrun by shouty accounts with bad opinions as to be a significant problem.
lemmy.world mods are also compromised. They’re just more subtle about it than lemmygrad et al.
Do you have a source for this? Reddit’s mods on big or politically-or-commercially-relevant subs were very clearly compromised, but I hadn’t seen any indication of that on lemmy.world and I was kind of hoping that it would be a lot more resistant.
Comments with blatant falsehoods? Cool. Comments calling out those falsehoods? Removed by mod, rule 3
Do you have an example or two? I know the lemmy.ml mods are shit, that is not news to me, but I haven’t seen this happen on lemmy.world that I can remember.
deleted by creator
Who is “we”?
What is a “popular candidate”?
There were actually elections, you know.
Biden isn’t exactly my cup of tea but he’s more or less reasonable on the national field. And people should understand when you elect a president (despite what Trump would tell you), you are actually electing an administration, a structure of workforce based on certain values. As long as something crazy doesn’t happen that puts the speaker up there, for the most part it’s those ideas that are winning the elections.
In less than half the states…
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-primary-elections/calendar
The primary is performative, the DNC has been openly admitting they’re not interested in fair primaries go like a decade now, even openly saying if they don’t get the results they want, they’ll ignore results.
You might not have realized it yet, but you personally don’t need to understand something for it to be true
Literally one of the shittiest ways to talk to a person and ensure they won’t take you seriously.
A-fuckin-goddamn-men.
This is what I always had a problem with as far as Trump is concerned. Trump only cares about Trump and he also believes he knows everything. He hires “yes men” not people who will inform him, not that he’s the type to accept information from others (unless it’s a lie meant to disparage his opponents.) That’s way more dangerous to us than his stupid Twitter usage and drawing on weather maps.
It’s also why, although I don’t love Biden, I’m ok with him. I know he’s only responsible for putting the rubber stamp on ideas his administration is coming up with. He may issue initial goals, but the administration has the expertise and does the work and they don’t exactly seem like a bunch of ghouls in this administration.
this is the shitty world we live in for 2024. Unless one of these geezers dies this is what its going to look like.
And no, a random empty suit off the street would not easily beat trump; when the corporate media aparatus is pointed at you things will always be like this because they want the worst guy to win, always.
The amount of downvotes you’re getting for the most common sense solution is really sad.
I have a feeling all those crazy 2016 Clinton supporters were IP banned from most major social media sites.
So now they’re on Lemmy.
Theyre just as bad as trump voters. They don’t care about issues or what a candidate achieves if they win. They just want their “team” to win an election.
That’s their end goal, so if anyone ever says a negative thing about their teams candidate, they take it personal and say the worst thing you can ever do is admit any flaws.
It’s blind loyalty to a person. And that shit is fucking dangerous.
I just can’t support that shit. I paid attention in history class. If the only two political options are that far gone, there’s been other political parties in America before, and there can be again.
There is nothing as bad as trump voters
The neoliberals here have formed the same rabid fanbase around Biden that trump has in his safe spaces.