No. This has been going on since 1948 when Israeli settlers decided to violently expel Palestinians from the land they wanted. And they haven’t stopped since.
And then there’s the issue of trying to justify a genocide by minimizing the actions being taken in Gaza and then saying the collective punishment is okay because of something Hamas did.
On another note, you should know there are 2 million Arabs living peacefully inside Israel as citizens with full rights. So it’s hard to argue for an ethnic cleansing case, even though what is happening in Gaza is bordering o genocide.
Those are the people who were allowed to stay, ruled under military law (not unlike the modern West Bank) for 20 years and only then got anything resembling human rights. I say anything resembling because they are still second class citizens.
Removing 80% of a land’s people (which is what Israel did in 1948-1949) is ethnic cleansing.
Ah ok. Sure, that’s true. But it’s still something, right? I’ve lived in Haifa and Akko (which is predominantly an Arab community) and I’ve seen that coexistence is possible. Arabs have businesses, families, pay the same taxes as Israelis and run their lives. So the whole ethnic cleansing thing is hard for me to swallow. Are the Likud opportunists exploiting a crisis to farm more land for Israel? Absolutely and it’s despicable.
Nobody is saying otherwise, not even Hamas (they dropped that in 2017).
Arabs have businesses, families, pay the same taxes as Israelis and run their lives. So the whole ethnic cleansing thing is hard for me to swallow
Do you see Native Americans having businesses, families and paying the same taxes as white Americans and find the idea that they were victims of genocide as soon as 150 years ago hard to swallow?
You need to remember something: Israel’s UN-assigned borders (to say nothing of the territory they took in 1949) used to contain 55% of all Palestinians. The Palestinians who were driven from their homes during the Nakba were about half the total population. If there was no ethnic cleansing there wouldn’t be Arab communities, because Arabs would be everywhere.
Yes, I don’t disagree with what you’re saying here, but we’re reverting to historical context once again. I’m going to check out of this thread since I see the downvote brigade is here and I’m tired but I appreciate the discussion. Have a good one.
That’s not a salient point. You’re still operating off the myth that a genocide is killing everyone in an ethnicity. First the ICJ has confirmed that the Palestinians are a distinct group. Second you should really go look at the UN definition of genocide. Israel has been flirting with the line for decades.
I’m very familiar with the UN definition. The essential feature is demonstrating intent (dolus specialis). I agree that it is bordering on genocide but I don’t know if intent has been demonstrated. It’s frustratingly difficult, because every conflict entails civilian casualties unfortunately. The case brought forward by South Africa failed to demonstrate dolus specialis, which is required to prove intent.
Syria wiped out 100k people in the last decade alone but Lemmy is particularly focused on this one group because they woke up on Oct 7 and learned Palestine is a thing. Tbh, I’m checked out of this thread and topic at this point. Lemmy is absolutely not the place for any nuance discussion on the point so thanks for your input but I’m signing off.
Americans are focused on Israel because we’re sending weapons to the bad guys. We didn’t send weapons to Assad, and we actively fought against ISIS. Are you alleging the Kurds committed systemic war crimes?
And no intent? Fucking hell boss how much intent do you need? They’ve checked every item on the list and made public remarks about there being no innocent Palestinians. This isn’t an oopsie. They’re actively keeping civilians who would like to evacuate in the combat zone, shooting them if they try to actually leave and preventing food from getting to them.
This is wildly beyond the pale for any military operation with ethical goals. And before you go off half cocked with, “how can we know, we’re just civilians?” I’m not. I was in Iraq in 2003. I know what it’s supposed to look like. I know how you’re supposed to treat people, and I know how to conduct military operations that don’t just create more terrorists. And this ain’t it. This is just one giant war crime.
I think you missed the whole point of my position. You brought up the UN definition. If you want to go to personal anecdotes that’s also fair game but I’m not interested in this conversation any more. This place is not suited for it because we’re practically talking past each other and I can see you’re very emotionally invested. Thanks have a good day.
Lmao. Personal anecdotes. I’m not talking about my experiences. I’m talking about the objective requirements to protect civilian populations in a war. You don’t go the exact other way on every single thing unless you’re trying to kill as many civilians as you can without outright shooting every one you see.
Oh you mean like when the Europeans came in and killed anyone in their way, including Christians?
Are you really using ancient crusades to justify a modern genocide?
The existence of war does not invalidate the coexistence of the locals. Not even the ones where the locals fought each other, because afterwards they went back to coexisting. That’s the natural state of nature, peace and coexistence. Even predators and prey drink from the same waterholes in a drought.
Yeah … No. This all happened after Israel fought the entire Arab world as the self proclaimed champion of Judaism. It’s not surprising they wanted to leave countries that viewed them as possible foreign agents. But very few were burned out of their homes and forced to leave. The entire narrative of Jews leaving the Arab world has been politicized specifically to downplay what Israel did to the Palestinians.
Lmao, started in the early 2000’s?
No. This has been going on since 1948 when Israeli settlers decided to violently expel Palestinians from the land they wanted. And they haven’t stopped since.
And then there’s the issue of trying to justify a genocide by minimizing the actions being taken in Gaza and then saying the collective punishment is okay because of something Hamas did.
On another note, you should know there are 2 million Arabs living peacefully inside Israel as citizens with full rights. So it’s hard to argue for an ethnic cleansing case, even though what is happening in Gaza is bordering o genocide.
Those are the people who were allowed to stay, ruled under military law (not unlike the modern West Bank) for 20 years and only then got anything resembling human rights. I say anything resembling because they are still second class citizens.
Removing 80% of a land’s people (which is what Israel did in 1948-1949) is ethnic cleansing.
Nope. You are confused. I’m talking about Israeli citizens with full rights. I’m not talking about the residents of areas B & C.
Yes, and I’m saying that they only gained those “full” (they’re not) rights after 20 years of what is going on in the West Bank now.
Ah ok. Sure, that’s true. But it’s still something, right? I’ve lived in Haifa and Akko (which is predominantly an Arab community) and I’ve seen that coexistence is possible. Arabs have businesses, families, pay the same taxes as Israelis and run their lives. So the whole ethnic cleansing thing is hard for me to swallow. Are the Likud opportunists exploiting a crisis to farm more land for Israel? Absolutely and it’s despicable.
Nobody is saying otherwise, not even Hamas (they dropped that in 2017).
Do you see Native Americans having businesses, families and paying the same taxes as white Americans and find the idea that they were victims of genocide as soon as 150 years ago hard to swallow?
You need to remember something: Israel’s UN-assigned borders (to say nothing of the territory they took in 1949) used to contain 55% of all Palestinians. The Palestinians who were driven from their homes during the Nakba were about half the total population. If there was no ethnic cleansing there wouldn’t be Arab communities, because Arabs would be everywhere.
Yes, I don’t disagree with what you’re saying here, but we’re reverting to historical context once again. I’m going to check out of this thread since I see the downvote brigade is here and I’m tired but I appreciate the discussion. Have a good one.
That’s not a salient point. You’re still operating off the myth that a genocide is killing everyone in an ethnicity. First the ICJ has confirmed that the Palestinians are a distinct group. Second you should really go look at the UN definition of genocide. Israel has been flirting with the line for decades.
I’m very familiar with the UN definition. The essential feature is demonstrating intent (dolus specialis). I agree that it is bordering on genocide but I don’t know if intent has been demonstrated. It’s frustratingly difficult, because every conflict entails civilian casualties unfortunately. The case brought forward by South Africa failed to demonstrate dolus specialis, which is required to prove intent.
Syria wiped out 100k people in the last decade alone but Lemmy is particularly focused on this one group because they woke up on Oct 7 and learned Palestine is a thing. Tbh, I’m checked out of this thread and topic at this point. Lemmy is absolutely not the place for any nuance discussion on the point so thanks for your input but I’m signing off.
Americans are focused on Israel because we’re sending weapons to the bad guys. We didn’t send weapons to Assad, and we actively fought against ISIS. Are you alleging the Kurds committed systemic war crimes?
And no intent? Fucking hell boss how much intent do you need? They’ve checked every item on the list and made public remarks about there being no innocent Palestinians. This isn’t an oopsie. They’re actively keeping civilians who would like to evacuate in the combat zone, shooting them if they try to actually leave and preventing food from getting to them.
This is wildly beyond the pale for any military operation with ethical goals. And before you go off half cocked with, “how can we know, we’re just civilians?” I’m not. I was in Iraq in 2003. I know what it’s supposed to look like. I know how you’re supposed to treat people, and I know how to conduct military operations that don’t just create more terrorists. And this ain’t it. This is just one giant war crime.
I think you missed the whole point of my position. You brought up the UN definition. If you want to go to personal anecdotes that’s also fair game but I’m not interested in this conversation any more. This place is not suited for it because we’re practically talking past each other and I can see you’re very emotionally invested. Thanks have a good day.
Lmao. Personal anecdotes. I’m not talking about my experiences. I’m talking about the objective requirements to protect civilian populations in a war. You don’t go the exact other way on every single thing unless you’re trying to kill as many civilians as you can without outright shooting every one you see.
Lmao indeed.
Only since 1948? The fight over Israel has been for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
Uh… No? This whole mess started in 1917, maybe a bit earlier but no later than the 20th century.
No. They lived there together for thousands of years just fine.
What an ignorant take. Israel has been fought over by countless people for religious or political reasons for hundreds of years.
Oh you mean like when the Europeans came in and killed anyone in their way, including Christians?
Are you really using ancient crusades to justify a modern genocide?
The existence of war does not invalidate the coexistence of the locals. Not even the ones where the locals fought each other, because afterwards they went back to coexisting. That’s the natural state of nature, peace and coexistence. Even predators and prey drink from the same waterholes in a drought.
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Yeah … No. This all happened after Israel fought the entire Arab world as the self proclaimed champion of Judaism. It’s not surprising they wanted to leave countries that viewed them as possible foreign agents. But very few were burned out of their homes and forced to leave. The entire narrative of Jews leaving the Arab world has been politicized specifically to downplay what Israel did to the Palestinians.
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No it’s an issue when you try to create false equivalents.
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