Letters: Readers respond to an article about quitting the rat race, with some saying their generation was handed an untenable position and others saying the struggle is nothing new
You guys realise most work is getting replaced by tech and automation FAR faster than new jobs are being created right? There isnt enough jobs in the 1st world to go around, and its only getting worse. 8hours only exists because we need to feed ourselves at this point, NOT because theres 8 hours of work that needs to be done
Okay, that’s fine too. And I agree with you there. But the only solutions there are:
Many of the disaffected computer programmers and office workers become nurses, builders, etc. Like, a large percentage of them.
We completely decide to stagnate as a society to approximately the year 2018.
Neither of these are great solutions.
Obviously in some far off future we can hypothetically get to the point where so much work is automated that work becomes more (but never completely) optional, but until we get to that point there are absolutely 8+ hours of work to be ton in a ton of fields.
Bud, I’m IN construction, competition for decent jobs is tough here too, not as bad as other fields sure, bud theres still a boom and bust season going on for the easier to get jobs. Furthermore, the fields lacking workers are the ones not paying enough to live off of, so capitalism isnt filling those roles either
Just joshing. You have me there that constructions a bit of a tricky one just because it is so boom/bust and area dependent. I do some work with my local Habitat for Humanity and good lord we can’t find a single qualified contractor for some general purpose construction to save our hides. In other areas, very different.
The point being, obviously we’re driving towards a society where UBI is needed and in on the whole people can work a bit less - but when people on Lemmy seem to go “working is bullshit! I could be at work half as long and nothing would go bad!”, that’s sometimes frustrating to me. As I know that is deeply not the case for many fields. Same goes for people who simply cannot conceptualize taking pride in one’s work as a real thing and not just “capitalist propaganda.”
To put it in dork terms, there’s a very thin line between a utopia like Star Trek and one like Wall-E. I want the former… I think many people want the latter.
Ah, I think we might be on similar pages. I dont think we need to worry about the Wall-E typed though. Taking pride in ones work is a very human trait, I dont think allowing people who just want to be lazy slobs to do so will cause EVERYONE to become them though, there will always be those who want to help and grow their communities. Getting caught fighting those who want to be lazy lets the capitalists deprive us of solutions to our collapsing system like UBI though, and tbh, I bet a lot of those who initially want to be lazy, will get bored after a while and seek to find something that lets them feel more fulfilled (Also yes I work 8 hours a day, but I WISH I could work 4. 8 hours leaves me drained an incapable of doing anything else with my day, leaving me to just find ways to waste the rest of the hours until I can sleep, whereas with 4 hour days I’m able to actually go and get shit done afterwards)
Definitely. You’re a good fella, and it can indeed be hard to find people who have more socialist/progressive goals but still ah… how should I say… realistic understandings of what is fundamentally needed for society to function well.
I hope we don’t lean towards Wall-E either. And I don’t think we will, but browsing this website too much makes me doubt that sometimes and the real lesson to myself is to be online less, lol.
Oh man, I hear you on that 1st part, and I definitely dont think Lemmy will give you much faith in that regard. I like Lemmy over Reddit for superior ability to curate your feed (and also the shit Reddit has pulled lately). But uncurated, theres a lot of left leaning folks here that I dont think have fully thought out the conflicts of their own beliefs
Because - and this might shock you, civilization requires goods and services to be manufactured and performed.
I know it’s really easy to picture “everyone can just work a little less!” But remember… that’s not just you in your office tower. That’s nurses, and construction workers, and HVAC technicians, and builders, and farmers.
So you can have your vision where no one has to work 8 hours a day… but that also means housing will be even more scarce and expensive and the wait time for your mom to get into the ER goes from one hour to five…
It’s really really easy to say “we can just seize the means of production and everyone in the country will work less” when you don’t work in a vital industry. Things get a lot more complicated once you do.
I work in a vital industry again you are being narrow minded as fuck trying to pigeon hole some stupid fucking point that doesn’t relate to our commentary. We as a company could simply hire more employees to spread the work so we all have more free time. You are forgetting that we can react to your perceived and ludicrous negatives that exist in your hypotheticals.
That’s fine enough, but you realize people are still going to have to do 8~ hours of work a day under such a system, correct?
You guys realise most work is getting replaced by tech and automation FAR faster than new jobs are being created right? There isnt enough jobs in the 1st world to go around, and its only getting worse. 8hours only exists because we need to feed ourselves at this point, NOT because theres 8 hours of work that needs to be done
Okay, that’s fine too. And I agree with you there. But the only solutions there are:
Many of the disaffected computer programmers and office workers become nurses, builders, etc. Like, a large percentage of them.
We completely decide to stagnate as a society to approximately the year 2018.
Neither of these are great solutions.
Obviously in some far off future we can hypothetically get to the point where so much work is automated that work becomes more (but never completely) optional, but until we get to that point there are absolutely 8+ hours of work to be ton in a ton of fields.
Bud, I’m IN construction, competition for decent jobs is tough here too, not as bad as other fields sure, bud theres still a boom and bust season going on for the easier to get jobs. Furthermore, the fields lacking workers are the ones not paying enough to live off of, so capitalism isnt filling those roles either
Yeah, but I bet you work 8 hours a day don’t you?
Just joshing. You have me there that constructions a bit of a tricky one just because it is so boom/bust and area dependent. I do some work with my local Habitat for Humanity and good lord we can’t find a single qualified contractor for some general purpose construction to save our hides. In other areas, very different.
The point being, obviously we’re driving towards a society where UBI is needed and in on the whole people can work a bit less - but when people on Lemmy seem to go “working is bullshit! I could be at work half as long and nothing would go bad!”, that’s sometimes frustrating to me. As I know that is deeply not the case for many fields. Same goes for people who simply cannot conceptualize taking pride in one’s work as a real thing and not just “capitalist propaganda.”
To put it in dork terms, there’s a very thin line between a utopia like Star Trek and one like Wall-E. I want the former… I think many people want the latter.
Ah, I think we might be on similar pages. I dont think we need to worry about the Wall-E typed though. Taking pride in ones work is a very human trait, I dont think allowing people who just want to be lazy slobs to do so will cause EVERYONE to become them though, there will always be those who want to help and grow their communities. Getting caught fighting those who want to be lazy lets the capitalists deprive us of solutions to our collapsing system like UBI though, and tbh, I bet a lot of those who initially want to be lazy, will get bored after a while and seek to find something that lets them feel more fulfilled (Also yes I work 8 hours a day, but I WISH I could work 4. 8 hours leaves me drained an incapable of doing anything else with my day, leaving me to just find ways to waste the rest of the hours until I can sleep, whereas with 4 hour days I’m able to actually go and get shit done afterwards)
Definitely. You’re a good fella, and it can indeed be hard to find people who have more socialist/progressive goals but still ah… how should I say… realistic understandings of what is fundamentally needed for society to function well.
I hope we don’t lean towards Wall-E either. And I don’t think we will, but browsing this website too much makes me doubt that sometimes and the real lesson to myself is to be online less, lol.
Oh man, I hear you on that 1st part, and I definitely dont think Lemmy will give you much faith in that regard. I like Lemmy over Reddit for superior ability to curate your feed (and also the shit Reddit has pulled lately). But uncurated, theres a lot of left leaning folks here that I dont think have fully thought out the conflicts of their own beliefs
Why? I wouldn’t have to require that.
Because - and this might shock you, civilization requires goods and services to be manufactured and performed.
I know it’s really easy to picture “everyone can just work a little less!” But remember… that’s not just you in your office tower. That’s nurses, and construction workers, and HVAC technicians, and builders, and farmers.
So you can have your vision where no one has to work 8 hours a day… but that also means housing will be even more scarce and expensive and the wait time for your mom to get into the ER goes from one hour to five…
It’s really really easy to say “we can just seize the means of production and everyone in the country will work less” when you don’t work in a vital industry. Things get a lot more complicated once you do.
I work in a vital industry again you are being narrow minded as fuck trying to pigeon hole some stupid fucking point that doesn’t relate to our commentary. We as a company could simply hire more employees to spread the work so we all have more free time. You are forgetting that we can react to your perceived and ludicrous negatives that exist in your hypotheticals.