What have you been reading? Pretty much the only place where the people magically, spontaneously organise is in political speeches. The Patriots wouldn’t have existed without guys like Jefferson, the French revolution was run by rogue military factions and exclusive political clubs, and the Leninists have it right in their name.
Oh. Shit magical and spontaneous? So there’s nothing other than a master with a whip and a fucking wizard?
Its not what i favor, or what im proposing, but spontaneous organization does happen. Youve never been in a disaster, or started digging a hole at the beach, have you?
So there’s nothing other than a master with a whip and a fucking wizard?
Kind of, yeah. The way I see it it’s a human limitation; we need a certain level of indirection to pull off anything bigger than a band of hunter-gatherers. Some systems are more whippy than others, though.
Youve never been in a disaster, or started digging a hole at the beach, have you?
Actually, yes I have, but never have I seen more than a handful of people get involved at once, and I never heard from that dude who started directing traffic again. I’ve also seen the bystander effect. Never in history. Maybe on the beach, but not in history.
You’ve never tried to organise any kind of activism, have you?
So, the beach thing. Why does it happen, and why does it ‘not happen anywhere else’?
Have you read ‘a paradise built in hell’?
Did you read my point about believing in the existence of, but not favoring spontaneous organization. A deliberate but headless structure is possible! They’re actually really cool! Good thing too, because strict hierarchies are wildly inefficient and trend towards flattening the territory to match the map, which tends to lead to fascism.
And if I believed it was only a fuhrer or a grand wizard, I’d fucking kill myself and take as many as I could with me. Thankfully I’ve seen (and executed) proof to the contrary.
As far as I can tell, being in a novel enough situation emergency puts people in a different headspace. After a while, normality creeps back in, and if the emergency continues it looks less like a community pulling together and more like Haiti or parts of Myanmar. Mostly, though, it’s an empirical observation. Besides what we’ve covered, it’s hard as shit to get people to show up or care about activism, and if a meeting gets big enough it stops working, so you have to appoint someone to head whatever thing. This proves true over and over again.
I don’t think that automatically means Hitler, though. Representative democracy seems to work if set up just right. Hopefully it’s here to stay.
Theres this tendency to completely ignore the effects of peer pressure and habituation and culture and very scary men with guns pointing them at you in these arguments, and its deeply bullshit.
We tend to treat a hyper-competitive hyper-alienating authoritarian context as some sort of fundamental trait of humanity, rather than some shit we work very very hard to maintain.
And its nonsense? And I can prove it. I prefer deliberate rhizomatoc organization; its more efficient long term, but I can prove spontaneous organizing happens anywhere it isnt actively shut down, and I’ll show you, in a totally non-ideological context: go to any beach, and dig a hole. Just pick a spot and start digging. Watch what happens. Nothings wrong, nobody’s in trouble, its not even really for anything, and you’ll have more help than you can use.
I could theorize why (being on a team feels good. Doing things is a primal joy. People generally want things to get done, etc) but the fact is; it happens, and tryimg to find reasons why it can’t be the basis of a social order, or at least disaster response; seems very unnecessarily pessimistic.
anything big enough just stops working and you need a charismatic authority figure to be in charge
That’s a failure if your organizing systems. Read more (managerial and information) theory? Seriously though; hierarchal systems do not scale. Spontaneous horizontal systems don’t either, but you do realize there are deliberate horizontal systems, right? That you can apply going in or retrofit to an existing organization?
representative democracy seems to work if its set up right
Real representative democracy has never been tried? No true Scotsman? Because I’m not seeing one, and if you are, you need (new) glasses.
hopefully its here to stay
Oh honey. I… Maybe some acid would help this go down easier. I’m here for a hug if you need it.
And its nonsense? And I can prove it. I prefer deliberate rhizomatoc organization; its more efficient long term, but I can prove spontaneous organizing happens anywhere it isnt actively shut down, and I’ll show you, in a totally non-ideological context: go to any beach, and dig a hole. Just pick a spot and start digging. Watch what happens. Nothings wrong, nobody’s in trouble, its not even really for anything, and you’ll have more help than you can use.
Well, it’s an interesting point. I’ve had an anarchist point out democracy was ridiculous until very recently, too. That all my lived experience and every documented sustained system is down to invisible training, and that it has no ontological momentum is an extraordinary claim, though. I need more than holes to support it; I don’t even live near a beach.
anything big enough just stops working and you need a charismatic authority figure to be in charge
No, just someone who’s willing to double-volunteer. It’s often me, and I have the charisma of a half-cooked noodle. I’m okay over text at least. I’m not thinking of the splashy figurehead positions.
Maybe the politicians I sometimes work with count, but honestly they just seem like normal salespeople, and I think a few of them even know what they are. In the end, nobody is in control of the big picture.
That’s a failure of your organizing systems. Read more (managerial and information) theory?
I’m good on information theory. No offense, but managerial theory seems like complete circlejerk. I don’t know, do you have an example of a big horizontal organisation that does things in meatspace? I’ve seen a couple that say that, but then you realise they have one guy that’s there “just to assist” or whatever, and you need that guy to sign off on use of any resources. As a peer, of course. /s
Because I’m not seeing one, and if you are, you need (new) glasses.
Well, it’s certainly not direct democracy, the voters have no clue. But on the other hand, casual bribery isn’t really a thing anymore in long-established democracies. Open corruption is bad for re-election, you see.
Oh. I guess every single history source I’ve ever read lied then. Thanks for informing me.
What have you been reading? Pretty much the only place where the people magically, spontaneously organise is in political speeches. The Patriots wouldn’t have existed without guys like Jefferson, the French revolution was run by rogue military factions and exclusive political clubs, and the Leninists have it right in their name.
Oh. Shit magical and spontaneous? So there’s nothing other than a master with a whip and a fucking wizard?
Its not what i favor, or what im proposing, but spontaneous organization does happen. Youve never been in a disaster, or started digging a hole at the beach, have you?
Kind of, yeah. The way I see it it’s a human limitation; we need a certain level of indirection to pull off anything bigger than a band of hunter-gatherers. Some systems are more whippy than others, though.
Actually, yes I have, but never have I seen more than a handful of people get involved at once, and I never heard from that dude who started directing traffic again. I’ve also seen the bystander effect. Never in history. Maybe on the beach, but not in history.
You’ve never tried to organise any kind of activism, have you?
So, the beach thing. Why does it happen, and why does it ‘not happen anywhere else’?
Have you read ‘a paradise built in hell’?
Did you read my point about believing in the existence of, but not favoring spontaneous organization. A deliberate but headless structure is possible! They’re actually really cool! Good thing too, because strict hierarchies are wildly inefficient and trend towards flattening the territory to match the map, which tends to lead to fascism.
And if I believed it was only a fuhrer or a grand wizard, I’d fucking kill myself and take as many as I could with me. Thankfully I’ve seen (and executed) proof to the contrary.
As far as I can tell, being in a novel enough situation emergency puts people in a different headspace. After a while, normality creeps back in, and if the emergency continues it looks less like a community pulling together and more like Haiti or parts of Myanmar. Mostly, though, it’s an empirical observation. Besides what we’ve covered, it’s hard as shit to get people to show up or care about activism, and if a meeting gets big enough it stops working, so you have to appoint someone to head whatever thing. This proves true over and over again.
I don’t think that automatically means Hitler, though. Representative democracy seems to work if set up just right. Hopefully it’s here to stay.
Theres this tendency to completely ignore the effects of peer pressure and habituation and culture and very scary men with guns pointing them at you in these arguments, and its deeply bullshit.
We tend to treat a hyper-competitive hyper-alienating authoritarian context as some sort of fundamental trait of humanity, rather than some shit we work very very hard to maintain.
And its nonsense? And I can prove it. I prefer deliberate rhizomatoc organization; its more efficient long term, but I can prove spontaneous organizing happens anywhere it isnt actively shut down, and I’ll show you, in a totally non-ideological context: go to any beach, and dig a hole. Just pick a spot and start digging. Watch what happens. Nothings wrong, nobody’s in trouble, its not even really for anything, and you’ll have more help than you can use.
I could theorize why (being on a team feels good. Doing things is a primal joy. People generally want things to get done, etc) but the fact is; it happens, and tryimg to find reasons why it can’t be the basis of a social order, or at least disaster response; seems very unnecessarily pessimistic.
That’s a failure if your organizing systems. Read more (managerial and information) theory? Seriously though; hierarchal systems do not scale. Spontaneous horizontal systems don’t either, but you do realize there are deliberate horizontal systems, right? That you can apply going in or retrofit to an existing organization?
Real representative democracy has never been tried? No true Scotsman? Because I’m not seeing one, and if you are, you need (new) glasses.
Oh honey. I… Maybe some acid would help this go down easier. I’m here for a hug if you need it.
Well, it’s an interesting point. I’ve had an anarchist point out democracy was ridiculous until very recently, too. That all my lived experience and every documented sustained system is down to invisible training, and that it has no ontological momentum is an extraordinary claim, though. I need more than holes to support it; I don’t even live near a beach.
No, just someone who’s willing to double-volunteer. It’s often me, and I have the charisma of a half-cooked noodle. I’m okay over text at least. I’m not thinking of the splashy figurehead positions.
Maybe the politicians I sometimes work with count, but honestly they just seem like normal salespeople, and I think a few of them even know what they are. In the end, nobody is in control of the big picture.
I’m good on information theory. No offense, but managerial theory seems like complete circlejerk. I don’t know, do you have an example of a big horizontal organisation that does things in meatspace? I’ve seen a couple that say that, but then you realise they have one guy that’s there “just to assist” or whatever, and you need that guy to sign off on use of any resources. As a peer, of course. /s
Well, it’s certainly not direct democracy, the voters have no clue. But on the other hand, casual bribery isn’t really a thing anymore in long-established democracies. Open corruption is bad for re-election, you see.