So here’s what I meant by that: I’m actually specifically agreeing with what you say about the Democrats being tone deaf and dismissive of legitimate concerns. I think it causes harm to the Democrats (in elections) and harm to the country (because it leads them to pursue a harmful neoliberal agenda and not listen to criticism of it a lot of the time.) What you’re saying, I’m agreeing with.
I’m also saying that this particular thing is not a fully legitimate concern. I’ve talked at length about my factual reasons why a big chunk of the article’s laundry list of complaints about the country – which the list is 100% legitimate, yes – shouldn’t be applied to Biden, because he (rather unusually for a Democrat) has been taking concrete steps to try to address them. And, that not voting for him will definitely make a whole lot of them (probably the entire list) much, much worse.
You can disagree with all that, and that’s all good. We can talk if you like. But IDK man… if you’ve ever been on the receiving end of this kind of “how dare you not even apologize for X, I’m so upset” “but I didn’t actually do X” “there you go again, how dare you” circular argument I think you can understand the difference between those two things – no?
Ramos is one of many young voters stewing with grievances over the country’s future, from the existential crisis of climate change to the frustration over inflation, reproductive rights, high interest rates, Israel’s war in Gaza, immigration reform and the power corporations have over their working conditions.
She’s mad Biden and Democrats have failed to protect reproductive rights or wipe out student loans. (emphasis mine)
These people are wrong. Full stop. The logic they’re using makes no sense, because factually, their ideas about what Biden has and hasn’t done don’t line up with reality.
And, I strongly suspect that this particular article has cherry-picked these particular people to present a particular narrative, instead of honestly trying to inform its readers about what’s actually going on.
So maybe it’s OTT for me to say I don’t care what these people think. If you want to talk about fixing the media so these particular people won’t be so wrong that they’ll bring up student loans as a big example of something Biden hasn’t done, that would lead them not to vote for him even over Trump, then that sounds great. But if the idea is that I have to listen to their ideas and take them seriously, then no, I don’t think I do, because they’re wrong. There’s a huge difference between that viewpoint and the standard DNC viewpoint of “IDC if you’re suffering, I don’t want to listen or try to help you solve it.”
I took some time to carve out and explicitly agree with you about the standard DNC viewpoint, because you and I are on the same page about it. If you want to argue though that these particular people are ones that Biden needs to be listening to because they’re worth listening to, I’m going to keep saying, no, they’re not.
Correct. I was confident enough of what was in it based on a bunch of these stories that I’ve read, to predict.
You can say that’s unfair, which I guess is legitimate, but I was right. Once we started getting into details I read the article and it contains exactly what I thought it contained.
Some time back I compared the Biden State Dept to the Nazis; just today I posted an article from Ralph Nader which was the good-faith and productive version of what “the Democrats don’t deserve our vote” is the not-sensible version of. (Basically, the Democrats need to listen better, and move to the left, otherwise they’re going to keep losing and they deserve to)
You’re free to think whatever you want, but I think you’re much more engaged in putting me in a particular box than any substantive discussion. We don’t actually disagree, as far as I can tell, on this factually at all. All these words have just been spent on you trying to put me into a particular box which isn’t accurate. I honestly don’t know exactly why you’re doing that, but all good.
So here’s what I meant by that: I’m actually specifically agreeing with what you say about the Democrats being tone deaf and dismissive of legitimate concerns. I think it causes harm to the Democrats (in elections) and harm to the country (because it leads them to pursue a harmful neoliberal agenda and not listen to criticism of it a lot of the time.) What you’re saying, I’m agreeing with.
I’m also saying that this particular thing is not a fully legitimate concern. I’ve talked at length about my factual reasons why a big chunk of the article’s laundry list of complaints about the country – which the list is 100% legitimate, yes – shouldn’t be applied to Biden, because he (rather unusually for a Democrat) has been taking concrete steps to try to address them. And, that not voting for him will definitely make a whole lot of them (probably the entire list) much, much worse.
You can disagree with all that, and that’s all good. We can talk if you like. But IDK man… if you’ve ever been on the receiving end of this kind of “how dare you not even apologize for X, I’m so upset” “but I didn’t actually do X” “there you go again, how dare you” circular argument I think you can understand the difference between those two things – no?
This exchange:
Sure seems consistent with the “fuck you” messaging.
Let me be more specific, then:
These people are wrong. Full stop. The logic they’re using makes no sense, because factually, their ideas about what Biden has and hasn’t done don’t line up with reality.
And, I strongly suspect that this particular article has cherry-picked these particular people to present a particular narrative, instead of honestly trying to inform its readers about what’s actually going on.
So maybe it’s OTT for me to say I don’t care what these people think. If you want to talk about fixing the media so these particular people won’t be so wrong that they’ll bring up student loans as a big example of something Biden hasn’t done, that would lead them not to vote for him even over Trump, then that sounds great. But if the idea is that I have to listen to their ideas and take them seriously, then no, I don’t think I do, because they’re wrong. There’s a huge difference between that viewpoint and the standard DNC viewpoint of “IDC if you’re suffering, I don’t want to listen or try to help you solve it.”
I took some time to carve out and explicitly agree with you about the standard DNC viewpoint, because you and I are on the same page about it. If you want to argue though that these particular people are ones that Biden needs to be listening to because they’re worth listening to, I’m going to keep saying, no, they’re not.
In the same comment I just quoted, you said you hadn’t read the article yet. Your problem couldn’t have been with something you hadn’t read yet.
Correct. I was confident enough of what was in it based on a bunch of these stories that I’ve read, to predict.
You can say that’s unfair, which I guess is legitimate, but I was right. Once we started getting into details I read the article and it contains exactly what I thought it contained.
Or you were just being consistent with party messaging and decided to retcon it when confronted.
As I said earlier, I will not expect honesty from you ever again.
Some time back I compared the Biden State Dept to the Nazis; just today I posted an article from Ralph Nader which was the good-faith and productive version of what “the Democrats don’t deserve our vote” is the not-sensible version of. (Basically, the Democrats need to listen better, and move to the left, otherwise they’re going to keep losing and they deserve to)
You’re free to think whatever you want, but I think you’re much more engaged in putting me in a particular box than any substantive discussion. We don’t actually disagree, as far as I can tell, on this factually at all. All these words have just been spent on you trying to put me into a particular box which isn’t accurate. I honestly don’t know exactly why you’re doing that, but all good.
You keep acting like I’m talking about policy and not messaging.