The hog farm is a hypothetical example. Getting hung up on it doesn’t change the reality that there are alternative uses of property that don’t require new zoning. In places where they don’t exist they will be made to exist, because people will sooner burn down their properties than give them away.
And you’re now suggesting that instead of renting, property owners should hold the notes on subprime mortgages? Your position is “If you’re creditworthy enough to own a second home, you should be forced to sell it to someone who can’t afford it and carry a note yourself at tremendous risk that an American bank knows better than to hold.” You were alive in 2008, right? You want a Depression? That’s how you get a Depression. When you find yourself advertising subprime mortgages in order to make your scheme work, don’t you think that might be a good time to reevaluate?
The seller isn’t holding the house when the buyer defaults. The seller is holding the house, the buyer’s damages to the house, the cost of the foreclosure, and the cost of deficiency litigation against the defaulting buyer who is probably judgment-proof, and that’s assuming the seller doesn’t also lose the house at foreclosure, since a foreclosure is a public sale. So the seller carries all of the risk while the unqualified buyer gets the equity. I don’t even own any land to rent, but fuck that. I’d sooner let it sit empty. The only people making money in that environment are real estate lawyers.
And none of this even considers that currently, a creditworthy seller statistically has given her own mortgage on the rental property in the first place, and that means the seller can’t finance the house herself because she can’t transfer good title to anyone without paying off her own note first. That’s a problem that doesn’t exist for, you guessed it, landlords. That scenario exists to currently enable people to buy second homes and generate wealth for their families, and it’s impossible in your regime in which apparently the upper middle class should not exist at all.
The bottom line is that your scheme is a disaster. I don’t say that to be mean. It’s just out of touch with economic reality. People can’t afford houses, and forcing landlords to sell their land doesn’t make people able to afford it. Credit and lending isn’t made up. It’s based on actual risk assessment, and forcing landlords to bear that risk while also losing their land isn’t a transfer of wealth to vulnerable populations or younger generations. It’s an erasure of wealth by procedure, bureaucracy, and waste.
And the owner-occupier thing? You know people can lie about their residency and building occupancy, right?
Your scheme, if implemented, would not solve the housing crisis. It targets the wrong people, it’s economically indefensible, and most importantly, it destroys class solidarity thay would otherwise exist between small landowners and renters. The only thing you might accomplish is a tremendous wave of violence, because I think I can speak for a lot of Americans here:
I have been tremendously, exceedingly fortunate and privileged to buy land. I wish everyone were so fortunate. I worked very hard for it. Other members of my family have also, and as much as I dread it, eventually I may inherit a second home that has been in my family for generations and was paid for by decades of backbreaking labor by my ancestors. When that day comes, I may rent one of these properties until my son is old enough to live there with his family. That’s the entirety of my retirement and investment strategy. My savings will simply not be enough on their own.
And your scheme suggests instead that I should be forced to sell to someone who may well fail to pay for it. No thanks. That’s a nonstarter, and it’s a nonstarter for everyone whose story even remotely resembles mine. In my part of the world, that’s the story of every house in the county. Your scheme doesn’t work for the simple reason that people here would sooner overthrow the government than let it stand.
I will never deed these properties away. They are paid for with my family’s blood. If you want to take the land from me or anyone similarly situated, you’re going to have to do it with guns.
That’s an attitude that can only exist for small landowners. Maybe we should try a scheme that doesn’t put them on the same footing with institutional investors. I really don’t like being on the same side of an issue as an investment bank. --but I like it a lot more than your plan to set the middle class back a hundred years.
And you’re now suggesting that instead of renting, property owners should hold the notes on subprime mortgages?
By and large, renters already have subprime credit. Landlords are already taking the risk on renters who would be subprime borrowers. That’s how they are making their money: exploiting people who don’t have the savings or income to qualify for lending.
Landlords aren’t taking on any additional risk by lending to them vs renting to them. They are actually reducing their risk, as the same person as a buyer has more to lose than they would as a renter. Further, a stable mortgage payment becomes more affordable over time, as the borrower’s income increases.
and that’s assuming the seller doesn’t also lose the house at foreclosure, since a foreclosure is a public sale.
That’s the stupidest thing you’ve said. Yes, it’s a public sale, and the beneficiary of that sale is the lender. The first bid at a foreclosure sale is always the lender, who bids what they are owed, including the foreclosure costs.
The only way the seller loses the house is if someone over bids them (or they are too stupid to bid the full amount they are owed) But if they are overbid, they receive the proceeds from the sale, and are made whole.
You don’t get to talk about damage to the property: landlords have the same risk. The cost and process of a foreclosure is similar to that of an eviction, and the higher interest rate the buyer is paying more than covers it. Further, you’re ignoring mortgage insurance that buyers would have to pay for as well.
And the owner-occupier thing? You know people can lie about their residency and building occupancy, right
Sure. That would be tax fraud. Property taxes are public records. Anyone can look up who was claiming what. Including the actual occupant of the property you say you live in, or the neighbor you pissed off. And when they look it up, you’re on the hook for all the credits you claimed.
I’d sooner let it sit empty.
That attitude is a problem. You are contributing to the problem. You should be financially discouraged from this problematic course of action.
, it destroys class solidarity thay would otherwise exist between small landowners and renters.
There is no class solidarity between renters and landowners, nor should there be. The relationship of landowner to renter is the same as the relationship between tick and dog, fly and horse, mosquito and human.
Much like “impoverished child” or “battered spouse”, “renter” is a class that should not exist, and for much the same reason.
Solidarity between the people you describe is best achieved by converting the renters into landowners.
The hog farm is a hypothetical example. Getting hung up on it doesn’t change the reality that there are alternative uses of property that don’t require new zoning. In places where they don’t exist they will be made to exist, because people will sooner burn down their properties than give them away.
And you’re now suggesting that instead of renting, property owners should hold the notes on subprime mortgages? Your position is “If you’re creditworthy enough to own a second home, you should be forced to sell it to someone who can’t afford it and carry a note yourself at tremendous risk that an American bank knows better than to hold.” You were alive in 2008, right? You want a Depression? That’s how you get a Depression. When you find yourself advertising subprime mortgages in order to make your scheme work, don’t you think that might be a good time to reevaluate?
The seller isn’t holding the house when the buyer defaults. The seller is holding the house, the buyer’s damages to the house, the cost of the foreclosure, and the cost of deficiency litigation against the defaulting buyer who is probably judgment-proof, and that’s assuming the seller doesn’t also lose the house at foreclosure, since a foreclosure is a public sale. So the seller carries all of the risk while the unqualified buyer gets the equity. I don’t even own any land to rent, but fuck that. I’d sooner let it sit empty. The only people making money in that environment are real estate lawyers.
And none of this even considers that currently, a creditworthy seller statistically has given her own mortgage on the rental property in the first place, and that means the seller can’t finance the house herself because she can’t transfer good title to anyone without paying off her own note first. That’s a problem that doesn’t exist for, you guessed it, landlords. That scenario exists to currently enable people to buy second homes and generate wealth for their families, and it’s impossible in your regime in which apparently the upper middle class should not exist at all.
The bottom line is that your scheme is a disaster. I don’t say that to be mean. It’s just out of touch with economic reality. People can’t afford houses, and forcing landlords to sell their land doesn’t make people able to afford it. Credit and lending isn’t made up. It’s based on actual risk assessment, and forcing landlords to bear that risk while also losing their land isn’t a transfer of wealth to vulnerable populations or younger generations. It’s an erasure of wealth by procedure, bureaucracy, and waste.
And the owner-occupier thing? You know people can lie about their residency and building occupancy, right?
Your scheme, if implemented, would not solve the housing crisis. It targets the wrong people, it’s economically indefensible, and most importantly, it destroys class solidarity thay would otherwise exist between small landowners and renters. The only thing you might accomplish is a tremendous wave of violence, because I think I can speak for a lot of Americans here:
I have been tremendously, exceedingly fortunate and privileged to buy land. I wish everyone were so fortunate. I worked very hard for it. Other members of my family have also, and as much as I dread it, eventually I may inherit a second home that has been in my family for generations and was paid for by decades of backbreaking labor by my ancestors. When that day comes, I may rent one of these properties until my son is old enough to live there with his family. That’s the entirety of my retirement and investment strategy. My savings will simply not be enough on their own.
And your scheme suggests instead that I should be forced to sell to someone who may well fail to pay for it. No thanks. That’s a nonstarter, and it’s a nonstarter for everyone whose story even remotely resembles mine. In my part of the world, that’s the story of every house in the county. Your scheme doesn’t work for the simple reason that people here would sooner overthrow the government than let it stand.
I will never deed these properties away. They are paid for with my family’s blood. If you want to take the land from me or anyone similarly situated, you’re going to have to do it with guns.
That’s an attitude that can only exist for small landowners. Maybe we should try a scheme that doesn’t put them on the same footing with institutional investors. I really don’t like being on the same side of an issue as an investment bank. --but I like it a lot more than your plan to set the middle class back a hundred years.
Either way I think we’re done here. Take it easy.
By and large, renters already have subprime credit. Landlords are already taking the risk on renters who would be subprime borrowers. That’s how they are making their money: exploiting people who don’t have the savings or income to qualify for lending.
Landlords aren’t taking on any additional risk by lending to them vs renting to them. They are actually reducing their risk, as the same person as a buyer has more to lose than they would as a renter. Further, a stable mortgage payment becomes more affordable over time, as the borrower’s income increases.
That’s the stupidest thing you’ve said. Yes, it’s a public sale, and the beneficiary of that sale is the lender. The first bid at a foreclosure sale is always the lender, who bids what they are owed, including the foreclosure costs.
The only way the seller loses the house is if someone over bids them (or they are too stupid to bid the full amount they are owed) But if they are overbid, they receive the proceeds from the sale, and are made whole.
You don’t get to talk about damage to the property: landlords have the same risk. The cost and process of a foreclosure is similar to that of an eviction, and the higher interest rate the buyer is paying more than covers it. Further, you’re ignoring mortgage insurance that buyers would have to pay for as well.
Sure. That would be tax fraud. Property taxes are public records. Anyone can look up who was claiming what. Including the actual occupant of the property you say you live in, or the neighbor you pissed off. And when they look it up, you’re on the hook for all the credits you claimed.
That attitude is a problem. You are contributing to the problem. You should be financially discouraged from this problematic course of action.
There is no class solidarity between renters and landowners, nor should there be. The relationship of landowner to renter is the same as the relationship between tick and dog, fly and horse, mosquito and human.
Much like “impoverished child” or “battered spouse”, “renter” is a class that should not exist, and for much the same reason.
Solidarity between the people you describe is best achieved by converting the renters into landowners.