Or vegans can just mind their own business and leave the rest alone. Claiming abuse and murder and yet still buy smartphones whose materials are sourced by abuse of the poor, drive around on liquefied animals and use plastics.
Stop using medicine and vaccines. K? Thank you. Those rely on horse shoe crabs donating blood and that’s animal abuse. Not to mention other medicine testing. Oh also, stop buying organic, since you know that’s exploitation of animals. Only veggies with good old artificial fertilizer are to be used. We don’t want you looking like a hypocrite while criticizing others.
I’d rather be a hypocrite one out of ten days, than to systematically support animal abuse and murder to feed me - which can be done perfectly fine in harmless ways.
Going vegan doesn’t mean you are saving animals. Without your demand for meat they would never get born in the first place. So not eating something that doesn’t get born doesn’t mean you saved them from being eaten. Just imagine how much potato milk I saved from being consumed, by not consuming potato milk.
Now you’re just grasping at semantics. Aside from the fact that vegans have promoted a way of life that led to the creation of animal sanctuaries, which literally does save animals lives; obviously abstaining from behavior that causes sentient, feeling, thinking beings to be actively bred into existence for the purpose of suffering their whole short lives for someone’s fleeting sensory pleasure makes a real difference. I believe I’ve already linked you to an article elsewhere, showing that even one person going vegan absolutely makes a difference.
You know, that’s kinda the point. You are reducing suffering. The hypothetical animal not born is one less animal suffering. It’s not necessarily only about saving them from being eaten.
If you can’t stop eating meat, buy from sources where they care for the animals and give them good life for the time they are alive. It’s not vegan, but you still reduce suffering. It’s not perfect, but it is a valid alternative.
Some vegans are against organic agriculture, and there currently is a huge problem where the various regenerative agricultural movements have been astroturfed by the animal ag industry with the whole free range thing.
But it ignores that conventional industrial agriculture also appears to be sending almost the entire arthropod phylum into extinction, which is still worse than organic ag.
There are a lot of reforms that need to be made to the agricultural sector, and veganic farming/gardening is one of those needed changes.
There are a lot of things that are not perfect in this world. But convenience trumps all, which is why diets reflect country’s policies and climate for the most part. USA shoves corn syrup into everything simply because of its abundance and everyone loves sweet stuff. But in the long run it’s creating a huge problem with obesity and diabetes. Meat is on the same level.
For some climates meat comes off as a byproduct almost. Remaining plant matter from plants used for human consumption are normally used to feed cattle and other animals. Without animals all that would have been most likely burned. Even if there was a different way to repurpose that burning is the fastest and easiest thing and us humans love easy.
Take for example countries in which sheep herding is a dominant form of farming because pastures can’t be used for anything else. You can’t expect those countries to ignore local food source which would be mutton and not use wool as byproduct, and rely solely on imported goods so they can go vegan. It’s impossible combined with stupidity. Look at Mongolia. Short grass as far as eye can see. Tell them not to rely on reindeer and meat.
I highly doubt this argument about the agricultural suitability of different lands holds up under scrutiny. I’ve seen someone grow a small food forest on top of a layer of manure that was spread on an abandoned parking lot, in midwest climate conditions. We don’t need the ‘viability’ of what can be grown where, being dictated by modern industrialized monoculture agribusinesses, since those practices are part of the problem.
And again it comes down to the possible and practical part of the vegan definition. I don’t live in Mongolia, so I’ll leave it to Mongolian vegans to determine what is and isn’t feasible.
Which is fair enough and I can respect that. But I have no respect for assholes who think they are better than the rest and keep calling everyone murderer and animal abuser while they claim they can undo 100k+ years of evolution in a single life-time and hypocritically rely on modern medicine to keep them healthy.
Sorry to continue this on and be the kind of “but…” person.
… But … A lot of vegans I know also try to reduce the amount of medicine they use cause sadly a lot of tablets have lactose in them. It’s genuinely one of the hardest things to deal with as a vegan, because it becomes the argument of do I better my life in spite of my ethics momentarily and it’s never an easy choice either way.
The way I see it is necessary suffering. There is no such thing as living without accidentally or implicitly causing suffering to someone, somewhere, so the logical response is harm reduction. Eating meat/cheese/eggs is not necessary. You won’t die or become ill if you stop. The calculation is not the same for medicine or food from agriculture generally.
How am I being an asshole? My position from the start was that it’s your own thing to pick and choose what you eat. Am just saying preaching to others and acting smug about it is annoying.
Vegans might be a bit preachy sometimes, because they want to change something that is a problem. It’s about raising awareness. Ultimately, it is up to you what you choose, no one can force you. Ultimately it is you ignoring a huge problem which is out there and choosing to do absolutely nothing about it.
Just because they do one good thing doesn’t mean they have to live the perfect life. It’s pretty hard to live in the modern world without a smartphone, while its realy not that hard to not eat animal products.
Or vegans can just mind their own business and leave the rest alone. Claiming abuse and murder and yet still buy smartphones whose materials are sourced by abuse of the poor, drive around on liquefied animals and use plastics.
Or animal abusers can just mind their own business and stop abusing and murdering innocent animals?
Stop using medicine and vaccines. K? Thank you. Those rely on horse shoe crabs donating blood and that’s animal abuse. Not to mention other medicine testing. Oh also, stop buying organic, since you know that’s exploitation of animals. Only veggies with good old artificial fertilizer are to be used. We don’t want you looking like a hypocrite while criticizing others.
I’d rather be a hypocrite one out of ten days, than to systematically support animal abuse and murder to feed me - which can be done perfectly fine in harmless ways.
10 out of 10. You just think you are not.
No, the data definitely doesn’t support your position. Going vegan absolutely makes a hell of a lot of difference, even from just one person doing it.
https://thehumaneleague.org.uk/article/how-many-animals-can-you-save-by-going-vegan
Going vegan doesn’t mean you are saving animals. Without your demand for meat they would never get born in the first place. So not eating something that doesn’t get born doesn’t mean you saved them from being eaten. Just imagine how much potato milk I saved from being consumed, by not consuming potato milk.
Now you’re just grasping at semantics. Aside from the fact that vegans have promoted a way of life that led to the creation of animal sanctuaries, which literally does save animals lives; obviously abstaining from behavior that causes sentient, feeling, thinking beings to be actively bred into existence for the purpose of suffering their whole short lives for someone’s fleeting sensory pleasure makes a real difference. I believe I’ve already linked you to an article elsewhere, showing that even one person going vegan absolutely makes a difference.
You know, that’s kinda the point. You are reducing suffering. The hypothetical animal not born is one less animal suffering. It’s not necessarily only about saving them from being eaten.
If you can’t stop eating meat, buy from sources where they care for the animals and give them good life for the time they are alive. It’s not vegan, but you still reduce suffering. It’s not perfect, but it is a valid alternative.
Some vegans are against organic agriculture, and there currently is a huge problem where the various regenerative agricultural movements have been astroturfed by the animal ag industry with the whole free range thing.
But it ignores that conventional industrial agriculture also appears to be sending almost the entire arthropod phylum into extinction, which is still worse than organic ag.
There are a lot of reforms that need to be made to the agricultural sector, and veganic farming/gardening is one of those needed changes.
There are a lot of things that are not perfect in this world. But convenience trumps all, which is why diets reflect country’s policies and climate for the most part. USA shoves corn syrup into everything simply because of its abundance and everyone loves sweet stuff. But in the long run it’s creating a huge problem with obesity and diabetes. Meat is on the same level.
For some climates meat comes off as a byproduct almost. Remaining plant matter from plants used for human consumption are normally used to feed cattle and other animals. Without animals all that would have been most likely burned. Even if there was a different way to repurpose that burning is the fastest and easiest thing and us humans love easy.
Take for example countries in which sheep herding is a dominant form of farming because pastures can’t be used for anything else. You can’t expect those countries to ignore local food source which would be mutton and not use wool as byproduct, and rely solely on imported goods so they can go vegan. It’s impossible combined with stupidity. Look at Mongolia. Short grass as far as eye can see. Tell them not to rely on reindeer and meat.
I highly doubt this argument about the agricultural suitability of different lands holds up under scrutiny. I’ve seen someone grow a small food forest on top of a layer of manure that was spread on an abandoned parking lot, in midwest climate conditions. We don’t need the ‘viability’ of what can be grown where, being dictated by modern industrialized monoculture agribusinesses, since those practices are part of the problem.
And again it comes down to the possible and practical part of the vegan definition. I don’t live in Mongolia, so I’ll leave it to Mongolian vegans to determine what is and isn’t feasible.
This is just basic whataboutism.
Vegans don’t see themselves as perfect. It’s all about doing the best you can, where you can
Which is fair enough and I can respect that. But I have no respect for assholes who think they are better than the rest and keep calling everyone murderer and animal abuser while they claim they can undo 100k+ years of evolution in a single life-time and hypocritically rely on modern medicine to keep them healthy.
Sorry to continue this on and be the kind of “but…” person.
… But … A lot of vegans I know also try to reduce the amount of medicine they use cause sadly a lot of tablets have lactose in them. It’s genuinely one of the hardest things to deal with as a vegan, because it becomes the argument of do I better my life in spite of my ethics momentarily and it’s never an easy choice either way.
The way I see it is necessary suffering. There is no such thing as living without accidentally or implicitly causing suffering to someone, somewhere, so the logical response is harm reduction. Eating meat/cheese/eggs is not necessary. You won’t die or become ill if you stop. The calculation is not the same for medicine or food from agriculture generally.
I agree
Just because some vegans are being assholes doesn’t mean you should be an asshole to everyone else and ignore the problem.
How am I being an asshole? My position from the start was that it’s your own thing to pick and choose what you eat. Am just saying preaching to others and acting smug about it is annoying.
When every comment you posted is down voted, maybe it is time for some self reflection.
If their argument had any sense, yes. Something being popular doesn’t mean it’s right. Perhaps it’s time to give up od hypocrites and move on.
Check the language you used for starters.
Vegans might be a bit preachy sometimes, because they want to change something that is a problem. It’s about raising awareness. Ultimately, it is up to you what you choose, no one can force you. Ultimately it is you ignoring a huge problem which is out there and choosing to do absolutely nothing about it.
Just because they do one good thing doesn’t mean they have to live the perfect life. It’s pretty hard to live in the modern world without a smartphone, while its realy not that hard to not eat animal products.
That’s all understandable and fine, but they don’t have the right to call others murderers and abuse condoners.