"Silly me, how could I not realised that the real victims here are the men who have to live in fear of women who talk about their genuine fears of being killed."
The answer to “not all men” is indeed “enough men”.
The issue isn’t that it’s 100% of men that do a thing. It’s that it’s enough you have to plan for it to happen every time. Ah in that case you may as well just assume it’s all and be pleasantly surprised if you’re wrong.
I’m sorry, what even is this argument?? The commenter above you is saying that women have enough proven experience of men being shitty to have to prepare for it in every interaction. Even if they know that it’s ‘not all men’ it’s enough that they have to assume it could be any single one.
The only way this could be comparable to racism is if people had legitimate reasons to mistrust other races, which is not the case. Racism is the result of exaggerated stories and mistrust being created about a community with whom the racist generally has no connection.
Most of the time women being wary of men doesn’t lead to misandry, it just leads to world-weariness and guardedness around men until we know we can trust them. But even if it did, misandry and misogyny are not equivalent. Misogyny is a prejudice which has been embedded in society for millennia and which has only begun to be deconstructed in the last century. Misandry is a response to this condition, but it is not structural, it’s the position held by a handful of women exhausted by their shitty experiences with shitty men.
It’s honestly a wonder that more women don’t viscerally hate every man in existence, and men should be thankful that we continue to go out and put ourselves out there despite the plethora of bad and downright dangerous things we’ve experienced. Knowing that men can do awful things and preparing for that possibility is just a survival tactic for remaining in the world.
…sure, I guess? An argument can be repurposed to try and make a lot of different points. Here’s the thing though…
A logical argument is considered valid if its conclusion follows necessarily from its premises, meaning that if the premises are true, the conclusion must also be true. However, an argument can be valid but not necessarily true (like the argument you’re suggesting). This is because validity only concerns the form of the argument, not the truth of the premises or the conclusion.
Here are some examples of valid but not necessarily true arguments:
Modus ponens: If it’s raining, then the streets will be wet. It is raining. Therefore, the streets will be wet. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the streets are not wet for some other reason.
Modus tollens: If it is not raining, then the streets will not be wet. The streets are not wet. Therefore, it is not raining. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the streets are not wet for some other reason.
Hypothetical syllogism: If it is raining, then the streets will be wet. If the streets are wet, then the roads are slippery. Therefore, if it is raining, then the roads are slippery. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the roads are not slippery for some other reason.
In each of these examples, the argument is valid because it follows a valid logical form, but it may not be true because the premises or conclusion may not be true.
Now think about the “enough men” argument. It’s not translatable to misogyny and racism because the context (the premises) is vastly different for people who don’t identify as men, and for people who are not white, straight, or really any other centered group (these things vary a lot depending on the specific culture you’re looking at and the intersectional dynamics that exist). Not enough women are violent towards men (though this does happen, and it is also bad) for men to have a realistic need to protect themselves in as many interactions.
Using the argument out of specific context, without true premises, nearly guarantees that the argument will no longer be true, while still being logically valid.
It is misandry to generalize and discriminate against men because “all men are dangerous scumbags” or something.
Besides, it doesn’t help anyone, really, and fosters extra anxieties and aggression.
We absolutely need cultural shift that would help everyone (both women and men) to expose rapists and any sort of harassment. We need to eliminate any cultural acceptability of those actions that remain.
We do not need to propagate hate based on gender/sex.
Absolute majority of men are perfectly normal human beings, like absolute majority of black people aren’t criminals, or absolute majority of gays are not child molesters or whatever the stereotypes were. Besides, all of those traits are immutable.
Some women go as far as to reject any heterosexual relationships despite being attracted to men for precisely this reason, and they often come from bad families, so relationship with men in the family is also negative.
Sure, most women are less radical, but even for them this constant hyperbole often sends anxiety levels to the moon, makes them unhealthily cautious, obsessed, in some cases paranoid.
Many women who have never been abused or threatened (at least from what they say) in any serious way can develop fear and loathing of men simply by leaning into this narrative.
And this seriously messes with very real relationships.
And it’s not a case of “women stupid”, no. Men can and do absolutely fall for the similar traps, growing stereotypes about women and leaning into them. It’s a universal human trait, and the one we have to address.
i didn’t say misandry is equivalent to racism, i said the exact same argument is used to justify racism.
but there’s definitely a lot of overlap between prejudice based upon sex/gender vs prejudice based upon perceived race.
and rape culture isn’t really a thing, it’s not a culture… it’s a problem but that’s the wrong word.
there’s like, chinese culture and such… there’s no, like, People of the Rape… misogyny is an aspect of many cultures, but it’s not the culture itself and typically rape is extremely prohibited… and had the death penalty in most cultures throughout history…
misandry is an understandable response but, ultimately it’s not leading towards any solution…
let me just google that real quick:
oh wow! i had noooo idea what you meant by that until i googled using a whole sentence instead of keywords like an idiot… wow, never heard that term before you used…
yeah i know what is meant by it, and it’s a stupid term…
car culture is a culture around cars,
chinese culture is a culture around a people…
there is no culture around raping…
in most cultures, rape is seen as pretty bad.
“rape culture” is a misnomer, it’s a stupid term. It is an invalid term no matter how many websites define it.
People use arguments to justify everything. Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong.
and this may be the dumbest string of words i’ve ever seen put together.
my point isn’t that they are both arguments, it’s that it’s the EXACT SAME argument, only substituting gender for race… and as such, equally as wrong.
but, i do agree that it’s pointless trying to talk to someone like you
Yes, literally everyone agrees that rape is bad. The problem is that in our culture, we have a bad habit of rationalizing what we do as not really rape. How many times have you heard someone ask what a woman was wearing, or why she was walking home at night instead of driving, or why she was alone at a bar, or why she didn’t fight back, or why she didn’t report sexual violence as soon as it happened? Why does nearly every woman have at least one experience with sexual violence? Why did we elect a guy who openly admitted to sexual assault as president? It’s almost like we have a culture around enabling and forgiving rape, in large part by rationalizing it as “not really” rape. I wonder if there’s a word for a culture that enables sexual violence.
How many times have you heard someone ask what a woman was wearing,
never
or why she was walking home at night instead of driving,
never
or why she was alone at a bar, or why she didn’t fight back, or why she didn’t report sexual violence as soon as it happened?
never, this is 2024 and all your points are from 1970…
Why does nearly every woman have at least one experience with sexual violence?
also not true
Why did we elect a guy who openly admitted to sexual assault as president?
most of us didn’t elect him, most of the country was outraged by this, and although he has sexually assaulted women for real, the way he said it was framed as joking… and a lot of people accepted it as just a joke (it turned out he was actually bragging…)
It’s almost like we have a culture around enabling and forgiving rape, in large part by rationalizing it as “not really” rape.
except it’s not. And even if all your points weren’t insane distortions, it’s still not a culture around rape, it has been a terrible aspect of our culture in the past, but we’ve improved drastically, and continue to improve.
trying to say it’s “rape culture” is intellectually lazy and actually destructive in that it hamstrings any attempt at reasonable discussion… so essentially, you’re enabling rape by trying to make it about “all men” and redefining all culture as “rape culture”…
Lemme try again. The same argument is not used (at least, not legitimately) to justify racism, because you do not have to actively take precautions to defend yourself from people of other races.
That’s not how assumptions work though. You might be “pleasantly surprised”, then the guy realizes “wow, I super hated being treated like that just for being male” and wisely stays the fuck away.
Ask any woman, they’ll let you know that some guys take that “wow, I super hated being treated like that” and don’t wisely stay the fuck away. Someone who cannot empathize with the caution women have to show around strangers is probably not the best partner anyway.
But why have people I know given me a ton of flak for the actions of men that I’ve never met nor had the opportunity to try to correct the actions of, merely for having a penis? Like, sorry for not being a clairvoyant and not stopping something from happening to you before I met you.
Maybe because you defend them. Or they see you not being a proactive force. It’s not enough to stand by and wait for something horrendous to happen to try to stop. You need to be part of the culture of change which means changing how you joke and talk about things to actively pursuing to change even bad and minor habits of those you socialize with.
Do people give you a ton of flak, or do they complain about things they’ve experienced exclusively at the hands of men and you’re getting defensive about it?
If it were just venting to me, I wouldn’t say I was getting flak. Its the venting but also the finger pointing, acting like I was there and egging it on, when I wasn’t around it at all.
The answer to “not all men” is indeed “enough men”.
The issue isn’t that it’s 100% of men that do a thing. It’s that it’s enough you have to plan for it to happen every time. Ah in that case you may as well just assume it’s all and be pleasantly surprised if you’re wrong.
the exact same argument is used to justify racism…
misandry is no better than misogyny
I’m sorry, what even is this argument?? The commenter above you is saying that women have enough proven experience of men being shitty to have to prepare for it in every interaction. Even if they know that it’s ‘not all men’ it’s enough that they have to assume it could be any single one.
The only way this could be comparable to racism is if people had legitimate reasons to mistrust other races, which is not the case. Racism is the result of exaggerated stories and mistrust being created about a community with whom the racist generally has no connection.
Most of the time women being wary of men doesn’t lead to misandry, it just leads to world-weariness and guardedness around men until we know we can trust them. But even if it did, misandry and misogyny are not equivalent. Misogyny is a prejudice which has been embedded in society for millennia and which has only begun to be deconstructed in the last century. Misandry is a response to this condition, but it is not structural, it’s the position held by a handful of women exhausted by their shitty experiences with shitty men.
It’s honestly a wonder that more women don’t viscerally hate every man in existence, and men should be thankful that we continue to go out and put ourselves out there despite the plethora of bad and downright dangerous things we’ve experienced. Knowing that men can do awful things and preparing for that possibility is just a survival tactic for remaining in the world.
…sure, I guess? An argument can be repurposed to try and make a lot of different points. Here’s the thing though…
A logical argument is considered valid if its conclusion follows necessarily from its premises, meaning that if the premises are true, the conclusion must also be true. However, an argument can be valid but not necessarily true (like the argument you’re suggesting). This is because validity only concerns the form of the argument, not the truth of the premises or the conclusion.
Here are some examples of valid but not necessarily true arguments:
Modus ponens: If it’s raining, then the streets will be wet. It is raining. Therefore, the streets will be wet. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the streets are not wet for some other reason.
Modus tollens: If it is not raining, then the streets will not be wet. The streets are not wet. Therefore, it is not raining. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the streets are not wet for some other reason.
Hypothetical syllogism: If it is raining, then the streets will be wet. If the streets are wet, then the roads are slippery. Therefore, if it is raining, then the roads are slippery. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the roads are not slippery for some other reason.
In each of these examples, the argument is valid because it follows a valid logical form, but it may not be true because the premises or conclusion may not be true.
Now think about the “enough men” argument. It’s not translatable to misogyny and racism because the context (the premises) is vastly different for people who don’t identify as men, and for people who are not white, straight, or really any other centered group (these things vary a lot depending on the specific culture you’re looking at and the intersectional dynamics that exist). Not enough women are violent towards men (though this does happen, and it is also bad) for men to have a realistic need to protect themselves in as many interactions.
Using the argument out of specific context, without true premises, nearly guarantees that the argument will no longer be true, while still being logically valid.
It’s not misandry to be wary around men. Rape culture is a thing. It is not equivalent to racism.
It is misandry to generalize and discriminate against men because “all men are dangerous scumbags” or something.
Besides, it doesn’t help anyone, really, and fosters extra anxieties and aggression.
We absolutely need cultural shift that would help everyone (both women and men) to expose rapists and any sort of harassment. We need to eliminate any cultural acceptability of those actions that remain.
We do not need to propagate hate based on gender/sex.
Absolute majority of men are perfectly normal human beings, like absolute majority of black people aren’t criminals, or absolute majority of gays are not child molesters or whatever the stereotypes were. Besides, all of those traits are immutable.
It’s a good thing literally no one actually thinks that all men are dangerous scumbags
You’d be surprised.
People might say that on the internet, but how many of those people have male SOs, or dads, or brothers? Could they be engaging in hyperbole?
Some women go as far as to reject any heterosexual relationships despite being attracted to men for precisely this reason, and they often come from bad families, so relationship with men in the family is also negative.
Sure, most women are less radical, but even for them this constant hyperbole often sends anxiety levels to the moon, makes them unhealthily cautious, obsessed, in some cases paranoid.
Many women who have never been abused or threatened (at least from what they say) in any serious way can develop fear and loathing of men simply by leaning into this narrative.
And this seriously messes with very real relationships.
And it’s not a case of “women stupid”, no. Men can and do absolutely fall for the similar traps, growing stereotypes about women and leaning into them. It’s a universal human trait, and the one we have to address.
i didn’t say misandry is equivalent to racism, i said the exact same argument is used to justify racism.
but there’s definitely a lot of overlap between prejudice based upon sex/gender vs prejudice based upon perceived race.
and rape culture isn’t really a thing, it’s not a culture… it’s a problem but that’s the wrong word.
there’s like, chinese culture and such… there’s no, like, People of the Rape… misogyny is an aspect of many cultures, but it’s not the culture itself and typically rape is extremely prohibited… and had the death penalty in most cultures throughout history…
misandry is an understandable response but, ultimately it’s not leading towards any solution…
People use arguments to justify everything. Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. This is a stupid point.
If you can’t be bothered to so much as type “what is rape culture” into google, I’m done talking to you
let me just google that real quick:
oh wow! i had noooo idea what you meant by that until i googled using a whole sentence instead of keywords like an idiot… wow, never heard that term before you used…
yeah i know what is meant by it, and it’s a stupid term…
car culture is a culture around cars,
chinese culture is a culture around a people…
there is no culture around raping…
in most cultures, rape is seen as pretty bad.
“rape culture” is a misnomer, it’s a stupid term. It is an invalid term no matter how many websites define it.
and this may be the dumbest string of words i’ve ever seen put together.
my point isn’t that they are both arguments, it’s that it’s the EXACT SAME argument, only substituting gender for race… and as such, equally as wrong.
but, i do agree that it’s pointless trying to talk to someone like you
Yes, literally everyone agrees that rape is bad. The problem is that in our culture, we have a bad habit of rationalizing what we do as not really rape. How many times have you heard someone ask what a woman was wearing, or why she was walking home at night instead of driving, or why she was alone at a bar, or why she didn’t fight back, or why she didn’t report sexual violence as soon as it happened? Why does nearly every woman have at least one experience with sexual violence? Why did we elect a guy who openly admitted to sexual assault as president? It’s almost like we have a culture around enabling and forgiving rape, in large part by rationalizing it as “not really” rape. I wonder if there’s a word for a culture that enables sexual violence.
never
never
never, this is 2024 and all your points are from 1970…
also not true
most of us didn’t elect him, most of the country was outraged by this, and although he has sexually assaulted women for real, the way he said it was framed as joking… and a lot of people accepted it as just a joke (it turned out he was actually bragging…)
except it’s not. And even if all your points weren’t insane distortions, it’s still not a culture around rape, it has been a terrible aspect of our culture in the past, but we’ve improved drastically, and continue to improve.
trying to say it’s “rape culture” is intellectually lazy and actually destructive in that it hamstrings any attempt at reasonable discussion… so essentially, you’re enabling rape by trying to make it about “all men” and redefining all culture as “rape culture”…
YOU HAVE JUST DESCRIBED RAPE CULTURE.
Lemme try again. The same argument is not used (at least, not legitimately) to justify racism, because you do not have to actively take precautions to defend yourself from people of other races.
once you’ve screamed at me in all caps and called me names, nah… i’m done talking to you
That’s not how assumptions work though. You might be “pleasantly surprised”, then the guy realizes “wow, I super hated being treated like that just for being male” and wisely stays the fuck away.
Ask any woman, they’ll let you know that some guys take that “wow, I super hated being treated like that” and don’t wisely stay the fuck away. Someone who cannot empathize with the caution women have to show around strangers is probably not the best partner anyway.
“Caution” alone is fine, it’s cute you think that’s the extent of what gets justified by that line of thinking.
But why have people I know given me a ton of flak for the actions of men that I’ve never met nor had the opportunity to try to correct the actions of, merely for having a penis? Like, sorry for not being a clairvoyant and not stopping something from happening to you before I met you.
Maybe because you defend them. Or they see you not being a proactive force. It’s not enough to stand by and wait for something horrendous to happen to try to stop. You need to be part of the culture of change which means changing how you joke and talk about things to actively pursuing to change even bad and minor habits of those you socialize with.
Anything less is condoning.
Thanks for assuming I’m the problem or at least perpetuating it.
Because I’m a man, right?
Do people give you a ton of flak, or do they complain about things they’ve experienced exclusively at the hands of men and you’re getting defensive about it?
If it were just venting to me, I wouldn’t say I was getting flak. Its the venting but also the finger pointing, acting like I was there and egging it on, when I wasn’t around it at all.