It continues to astound me this has to be stated as a political position, as though objecting to Israel committing mass genocide against Palestinians somehow makes you an antisemite.
Mass killing of innocent people is always wrong, no matter who is doing it.
The problem is that actual antisemites jump into the debate and work to linguistically push legitimate criticism of Israel into real antisemitism. You can see it right here, all over Lemmy, and presumably this thread. It’s incredibly obvious, and it’s also incredibly obvious that those people want to short circuit this conversation by making the issue black and white.
That’s why many people are very hesitant to engage with this even if they do have real concerns over how Israel operates.
And on the other side of the coin, hard-right Israelis work to paint any criticism of Israel as antisemitic, regardless of legitimacy.
So on the one hand, you have antisemites using this as an opportunity to blame all the world’s ills on tHe (((gLoBALiStS))) (I really hope that came across as sarcastic enough), and on the other, you have ultraconservative Israelis using the first group to lump the people saying “please don’t do a genocide” in with them. And on top of that you also have Hamas doing the goddamn Goofy “and I’ll fuckin do it again” meme, along with a bunch of people in Palestine who are literally taught antisemitism and hatred in the classroom, while Russia, Iran, and the same goddamn Israelis painting everyone as antisemitic pour money into the group that would genocide Israel back in a heartbeat. And caught in the middle of this category 5 shit hurricane are a bunch of innocent people who just want to be treated like human beings with equal rights, and to be able to go to the goddamn grocery store without worrying about getting exploded by a piss rocket / laser-guided cluster bomb made by Lockheed Martin.
I’m so goddamn fucking sick and tired of everything with this. Literally the only “good guys” in this entire fucking 70-year conflict are the noncombatants on either side of the Gaza border wall trying to go about their day and whose entire lives are reduced to a casualty sheet and a propaganda blurb, while both sides just keeps fighting and killing because perverse incentives mean it’s the only way both Netanyahu and Hamas can cling to power, innocent life be damned.
Russia, Iran, and the same goddamn Israelis painting everyone as antisemitic pour money
This is an important thing that many people ignore or don’t know. Most wedge issues are stoked by groups with money on each side. Even if you think something is a moral issue, large issues have money behind them. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be contentious because everyone would support only one side.
Iran and Israel are regional political rivals. Neither one actually wants or is ready for a war, so they support proxies that do dirty work for them. Both countries are run by conservatives and animosity and fear help them with domestic politics. The political parties in power in Iran and Israel both benefit from Hamas being scary, and anti-Semitism existing in the world.
Eh, sure you have antisemites saying Israel’s actions make Jews evil and that’s bad. But most of the antisemites are saying Israel’s actions make Jews evil and that’s good. Because they’re evil, and they like fellow evil as long as they aren’t competing for resources. Or because they’re evil Jews who like being evil and want to use Jewishness as a shield. For example, Netanyahu is an evil antisemite who wants everyone to think Judaism is about doing genocide, so that he can call anyone who objects to genocide an antisemite. But of course, saying Judaism is genocide is the real antisemitism.
Their answer to the Cyprus dispute, the Israel Palestine dispute, and Kurdish unrest at being denied independence is “MINE MINE IT’S MINE FOR THE TAKING!”
It’s no more antisemite to object to Israel’s actions than it is to be pro genocide to vote for Biden. But this is what the Trump trolls have chosen for everyone to be upset about now.
It’s this every four years. There’s always something to not vote over.
I think the requirement for “have to be stated it as a political position” caveat is rooted in malice which has historically skewed the discussion in favor of controlling the narrative in the interest of the agenda at hand, in this case is blind support for Israel.
I remember having to use the same set of qualifiers back in the day during the “War on Terror”, when arguing that mass bombing campaigns would only lead to more extremism. I’d have to state that I didn’t “support terrorism” and the idea was to have an objective discussion around the policies in question.
It’s a tact to suppress valid criticism and garner support.
It was apparent then and it’s apparent now. We cannot have open discussions in the interest of actual progress when folks are implicated into a myopic tribal view of the situation for having an opinion that goes against the common narrative.
Yeah, you would think that it would be pretty simple and straightforward for most people to grasp, yet, the need to condition being pro-not-killing-innocent-Palestinian/any civilians with a disclaimer of not supporting Hamas and not being antisemitic within the same breath exists in conversations with most folks. It’s absurd. It’s like being against both what was done to innocents by Hamas on October 7 and what Israel is currently doing to innocents is impossible for many people to wrap their minds around (or at least, that’s how the national conversation is framed in the US). Neither action is an acceptable means of achieving goals (stated or otherwise), but Hamas and Netanyahu have long been in a toxic codependent relationship. My favorite is the look on “pro-Israel” peoples’ faces in instances where they’re informed that the person they just called an antisemite for daring to be against the bombing of innocent children and others is Jewish (whether by religious practice or genetics). It’s bullshit.
It continues to astound me this has to be stated as a political position, as though objecting to Israel committing mass genocide against Palestinians somehow makes you an antisemite.
Mass killing of innocent people is always wrong, no matter who is doing it.
The problem is that actual antisemites jump into the debate and work to linguistically push legitimate criticism of Israel into real antisemitism. You can see it right here, all over Lemmy, and presumably this thread. It’s incredibly obvious, and it’s also incredibly obvious that those people want to short circuit this conversation by making the issue black and white.
That’s why many people are very hesitant to engage with this even if they do have real concerns over how Israel operates.
And on the other side of the coin, hard-right Israelis work to paint any criticism of Israel as antisemitic, regardless of legitimacy.
So on the one hand, you have antisemites using this as an opportunity to blame all the world’s ills on tHe (((gLoBALiStS))) (I really hope that came across as sarcastic enough), and on the other, you have ultraconservative Israelis using the first group to lump the people saying “please don’t do a genocide” in with them. And on top of that you also have Hamas doing the goddamn Goofy “and I’ll fuckin do it again” meme, along with a bunch of people in Palestine who are literally taught antisemitism and hatred in the classroom, while Russia, Iran, and the same goddamn Israelis painting everyone as antisemitic pour money into the group that would genocide Israel back in a heartbeat. And caught in the middle of this category 5 shit hurricane are a bunch of innocent people who just want to be treated like human beings with equal rights, and to be able to go to the goddamn grocery store without worrying about getting exploded by a piss rocket / laser-guided cluster bomb made by Lockheed Martin.
I’m so goddamn fucking sick and tired of everything with this. Literally the only “good guys” in this entire fucking 70-year conflict are the noncombatants on either side of the Gaza border wall trying to go about their day and whose entire lives are reduced to a casualty sheet and a propaganda blurb, while both sides just keeps fighting and killing because perverse incentives mean it’s the only way both Netanyahu and Hamas can cling to power, innocent life be damned.
This is an important thing that many people ignore or don’t know. Most wedge issues are stoked by groups with money on each side. Even if you think something is a moral issue, large issues have money behind them. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be contentious because everyone would support only one side.
Iran and Israel are regional political rivals. Neither one actually wants or is ready for a war, so they support proxies that do dirty work for them. Both countries are run by conservatives and animosity and fear help them with domestic politics. The political parties in power in Iran and Israel both benefit from Hamas being scary, and anti-Semitism existing in the world.
Eh, sure you have antisemites saying Israel’s actions make Jews evil and that’s bad. But most of the antisemites are saying Israel’s actions make Jews evil and that’s good. Because they’re evil, and they like fellow evil as long as they aren’t competing for resources. Or because they’re evil Jews who like being evil and want to use Jewishness as a shield. For example, Netanyahu is an evil antisemite who wants everyone to think Judaism is about doing genocide, so that he can call anyone who objects to genocide an antisemite. But of course, saying Judaism is genocide is the real antisemitism.
kinda hard to get that message across when woke ass idiots are chanting" between the river and the sea" as if that slogan meant support for Palestine.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he’s not Palestinian.
Yeah the Al-Assad family are psychos
Their answer to the Cyprus dispute, the Israel Palestine dispute, and Kurdish unrest at being denied independence is “MINE MINE IT’S MINE FOR THE TAKING!”
It’s no more antisemite to object to Israel’s actions than it is to be pro genocide to vote for Biden. But this is what the Trump trolls have chosen for everyone to be upset about now.
It’s this every four years. There’s always something to not vote over.
I think the requirement for “have to be stated it as a political position” caveat is rooted in malice which has historically skewed the discussion in favor of controlling the narrative in the interest of the agenda at hand, in this case is blind support for Israel.
I remember having to use the same set of qualifiers back in the day during the “War on Terror”, when arguing that mass bombing campaigns would only lead to more extremism. I’d have to state that I didn’t “support terrorism” and the idea was to have an objective discussion around the policies in question.
It’s a tact to suppress valid criticism and garner support.
It was apparent then and it’s apparent now. We cannot have open discussions in the interest of actual progress when folks are implicated into a myopic tribal view of the situation for having an opinion that goes against the common narrative.
Yeah, you would think that it would be pretty simple and straightforward for most people to grasp, yet, the need to condition being pro-not-killing-innocent-Palestinian/any civilians with a disclaimer of not supporting Hamas and not being antisemitic within the same breath exists in conversations with most folks. It’s absurd. It’s like being against both what was done to innocents by Hamas on October 7 and what Israel is currently doing to innocents is impossible for many people to wrap their minds around (or at least, that’s how the national conversation is framed in the US). Neither action is an acceptable means of achieving goals (stated or otherwise), but Hamas and Netanyahu have long been in a toxic codependent relationship. My favorite is the look on “pro-Israel” peoples’ faces in instances where they’re informed that the person they just called an antisemite for daring to be against the bombing of innocent children and others is Jewish (whether by religious practice or genetics). It’s bullshit.
But it makes money for defense contractors. How can it be wrong? — Several governments