Heaven forbid we try running charismatic candidates like Obama and Bill…
Like, it’s insane to me that everyone seems to be aware of what wins elections, but the people running the Dem party just keep insisting we need to shut up and vote for someone very few people actually want.
Like, we can’t do this without the voters, they’re the irreplaceable part.
We can get different people to run the party, or just coalesce around another.
Democrats need to fall in love. Republicans just need to fall in line.
It’s like you read the meme and went yep, totally their fault. I’m ok with my life gets shittier until I fall in love with a politician. It’s not my fault. I am owed this.
Is there a term for the political version of an incel?
This user canvases lemmy threads with anti Biden and anti Dem strawman arguments completely out of context of the thread. Every thread calling out Republicans for bullshit, this user is there never acknowledging how terrible the GOP is, and going straight into anti dem whataboutism.
Just look at the sheer number of comments this user posts daily. And search the mod logs for deleted comments on this user.
If they’re not being paid to disenfranchise progressive voters into abstaining from this election, they should look for a sponsor because they’re working for free.
100%. You hardly ever see these people in any posts critical of Trump, though the few that you do see, just turn it around on Biden.
They’re clearly here to disrupt the election.
Just ask them who they’d put in Biden’s stead that has a remote chance to win the election. I do this all the time. So far- NONE have provided a viable name. Not one. Just backtracking, ad hominem, and doublespeak nonsense.
Your car has a blown head gasket. It still turns over, but the check engine light is always an on the oil looks like peanut-butter.
You need to drive 100 miles to get to the airport tomorrow. All the indications you have suggest your car isn’t going to make it. Every piece of reliable data you have says its not going to work. Historically, people have tried to use cars like this to get to the air port, it doesn’t work. You have friends and family members with cars would happily drive you to the airport. You could even just borrow their car. Technically you haven’t decided what car to drive to the airport yet; this actually doesn’t happen till you and your family have a group call tonight. You have alternatives.
Biden is the car. Literally any generic Democrat is the car of your friends or family. The group call is the convention.
You are insisting on a strategy that is going to hand Trump the election. When it does, we’ll be pointing to these posts of yours.
Insisting we run Biden when we haven’t had a convention and literally every Democratic governor polls higher is you insisting we lose this one.
Biden is not a car. He’s a presidential candidate. I suggest you take this shit seriously. Because pouting and withholding your vote because you’re not getting what you want is going to get you EVERYTHING you don’t want. And it is going to hurt a LOT of people.
Okay. I think we’re done here man. I have drawn out your bad argument about as good as I think I can. You’ve made it pretty clear that you’re not here in in any capacity of good faith and at this point it’s pretty clear what you’re up to.
You managed to not only lie to yourself, but you’ve backed that lie up with false data created by… yourself. That’s some inception-level cognitive dissonance.
I’m not going to block you, but I’m done talking to you. So… have the last word.
And I don’t mean that in a “don’t give them the satisfaction” way. I mean that’s what they’re paid to do. When people like us block people like them, it’s easier for them to spread their propaganda. Because we don’t call it out, because we don’t see it.
Blocking someone is not silencing them, it’s just plugging your ears.
You are completely detached from reality. Go look up the Gallup polling data and check my methods. I’ve explained them clearly enough to be reproduced.
You aren’t interested in a conversation grounded in reality, and you just can’t comprehend something that doesn’t agree with your assumptions.
Bidens not winning this election. He hasn’t been the whole time. In 450 days he hasn’t been leading in polling. He’s a fucking disaster, and you and others who insist this guy who is visibly incapable of winning are the ones responsible for Trump.
You do, of course, realize Hitler was put into power by the conservatives, right? Like, von Pappen was Centre Party, von Hindenburg was a nationalist. They turned to Hitler to avoid losing power to the left.
They’re our only viable choices now because the primaries are over, and as much as people here want a super leftist candidate, the reality is that when it’s time to vote, those candidates don’t get enough votes either because these same people don’t actually vote, or this stance isn’t nearly as popular as some may think. I say this all as a Bernie supporter, but vocally against the disinformation agents who push agendas like “both sides” or the previous “Bernie or Bust” mantra.
Like it or not, the reality is, come the general election it’s either Biden or Trump. Unfortunately, anything other than a Biden vote helps Trump.
Gnash teeth and complain all you want, but that’s reality. Anyone pushing another agenda is lying or naive.
It’s not just the president, you need to vote for house of reps and Senate. Obama only had control for 2/8 years. In that time he got the ACA. The remaining 6 years of Obama the GOP were more than happy to block everything. They even shut down the government. If you need charisma to feed your emotions every 4 years, yeesh.
*Oh I caught on, it’s the thiny veiled Biden bad, hinting he has no charisma and nobody wants to vote for him. “They just have to run someone else nudge nudge. Someone else to run the party wink wink.” Nuts to that, Biden is doing great.
I get people want to fall in line at this point and I have and will vote for Biden, but your head is deep in the sand if you believe Biden’s senility and lack of charisma isn’t hurting him here. The only thing we’re lucky on is that Donald is running again who is for all intents just as senile and far more deranged and far less compassionate.
There it is again “senility”. Everyone working with him says he’s sharp, but you just gotta get it in. Would I prefer younger? Sure. But he’s not senile JFC. Lack of charisma? The guy presents absolutely fine and does great work. How much does one need to appeal to emotions.
This “we need someone charismatic and then we’ll vote” is the emotion for the supposed logical, informed, left wing voter, who votes based on policy (or lack of policy when they protest no vote).
Funny because I think it’s the other way around, people screaming “but but but charisma! But but but old!”
I thought maybe it was someone else I just told but no it’s you. These are the supposed logical people waiting for the supposed logical platform. But no, they want emotions. Notice that doesn’t add up?
And you’re still trying to sneak it in. Biden is just fine charismatically.
Not the guy you’re discussing with, but on this rare occasion I’ll toot my own horn for once: If only the average American were as intelligent — or at least informed — as me. Unfortunately one must get on their level, sometimes. Besides, having a logical platform and having the charismatic youthful platform are not mutually-exclusive things.
Welcome to America, where everything from high school to your career prospects is basically a popularity contest as opposed to a formal job interview based on legitimate experience and qualifications.
They who can thread the needle between populism and substantive policy win.
I’m just happy Donald is the nominee again because I don’t think Biden could’ve beat anyone else.
A whopping 66-77% of Americans polled again and again view Biden as too old to be President. So in this respect, I’m just reflecting a widespread concern of what millions upon millions of people see and feel.
His staff, who must literally kiss ass to maintain the privilege of working a job in the White House and like warfare will give no quarter to any argument the GOP makes no matter how true it is - is NOT a good counter-argument to make. It’s as outlandish as the Republican senators coming out of the meeting yesterday saying Trump is sharp as ever.
Even the likes of The Daily Show to SNL mocks this aspect of Biden for good reason.
Blaming for the stutter works only insofar as you’re old enough to remember Biden as VP under Obama in 2008.
NOW, here’s the thing: less time needs to be spent trying to shore up the bullshit argument that Biden is “sharp as ever,” and more about pivoting to Trump’s incoherent rambles and his own age. Acknowledging Biden’s age is actually a great one-two punch to use for anyone on the fence because it gives you a point where both can agree: “Yeah, I agree Biden is showing his age clearly. No differently than McConnell… No differently than Donald (give examples), but I think Biden is at least a more compassionate person… And say, while we’re at it, can we agree we should have an age limit if we already have an age-minimum on the Presidency?” <clinks-beers and everybody laughs.>
This wasn’t about him being old, this was about you saying “senility” and whoever didn’t believe that had was “head is deep in the sand”. But when I call that out, you have to pivot that to old.
Ok I should have said people that meet him say he’s sharp. They are not beholden to him. One guy met him said he remember meeting his mom like a decade prior and remembered her and all the details. Fuck that’s better than I do. Now in case you say “but that’s not work”, but yes also the people that work with him say he’s sharp too. Seems to me you just want to get the ‘senile’ bit out any way you can.
Wow and now you’re trying to ignore that he does in fact have a stutter? Ok that’s about it, you’ve shown you’re dead set on vilification no matter what. Stutters come and go, how prepared you are for a speech, etc. It’s not consistent that never changes one bit.
Thanks for showing the world that your mission is to bad mouth Biden. You sneak in “senile” then pivot when called out. You say everything good must be bootlickers. And you preemptively try to ignore that he has a stutter. I’m probably not going to reply anymore.
Geriatric, old, senile — same thing for all intents of this discussion. Yes, they are head-deep in the sand.
Hell just watch the clips from this Daily Show skit of Biden.. I can tell you three things: (1) Obama never did this, (2) Biden never did this during Obama’s first term in office, and (3) this is clearly a sign of senility no different than McConnell just freezing during a press conference.
Wow and now you’re trying to ignore that he does in fact have a stutter?
Not what I said. Work on reading-comprehension, please. Try again and stop putting words in my mouth.
Also I didn’t “sneak” senile in anywhere — I said it quite in the open, really.
Hell just watch the clips from this Daily Show skit of Biden.. I can tell you three things: (1) Obama never did this, (2) Biden never did this during Obama’s first term in office, and (3) this is clearly a sign of senility no different than McConnell just freezing during a press conference.
I’m no Hillary fan, but I thought the consensus was she lost because of Comey’s bullshit October surprise.
Her Basket of Deplorables remark is actually the moment she MOST energized her base and grassroots coalition. That was a blip of authenticity I and many others appreciated.
You know, the people who actually go out and do the door-knocking, phone-banking, fundraising, and pushing back against Uncle Bob and their parents while dragging their friend to the poll out of voter-enthusiasm.
And she was fucking right, like she was about everything, and I suspect that deep down you people know it, and are ashamed, and that’s why you lash out at her.
Young and charismatic. That’s all that is necessary for Dems to sweep elections. Proven time and time again. With a hearty message of progress and love.
It’s that fucking simple.
(signed someone who ultimately voted for Hillary and Biden but they were far from my 1st preference in the primaries).
Young and charismatic might mean higher taxes for the rich and more progressive policies.
The Democratic leadership doesn’t want that. They really like the neoliberal consensus, they like having funding parity with the Republicans. They like being seen as “very serious people “ and they’re deathly afraid of being called socialists.
The problem is that their apparatchiks all came of age, politically, in the 1990s under that same neoliberal golden age. That’s not the world they’re in anymore. They aren’t running against Bush the Elder, and cutting taxes while playing jazz isn’t going to cut it when they’re losing working class votes to fascists.
We saw this play out horribly in the UK: where Labour’s party leaders would rather sabotage their own leader because he was too progressive then risk him winning and give socialism credibility.
The political left really liked the 1990s, but it’s a bygo era and it isn’t coming back.
I mean, big nuts that’ll ever happen. There’s no glut of idiots no matter what generation you look at, I’m sure they can just keep appointing cynical self-interested assholes to succeed them whenever they drop.
The last time the Democrats ran a progressive candidate allowed Nixon to sweep every state except a few in that election. I mean, just look at this shit!
So yeah, if anyone is wondering why the Democrats don’t run progressive candidates, this is why! They’ve only moved further to the right since then. Expecting Democrats to run a progressive would likely sweep the whole nation blue, but if you thought tRump was bad, a progressive would be just as bad for monied interests, which have only grown more emboldened and enriched the last 40-45 years.
It will take a lot of time, I’m afraid, to undo the damage Republicans have have done with their shitty ideals and politics, starting largely with Reagan’s racist, homophobic, anti-union, and regulation gutting bullshit!
In fairness I emphasized young and charismatic — was McGovern charismatic? I don’t know about that.
Still, I think this is the exception as opposed to the norm, considering we can point to FDR, JFK, Carter, Clinton, and Obama. RFK was setting up to be another obvious front-runner.
It’s a race to the bottom to put forward someone who will water their rhetoric down and cater to ignorance; but of course, some of the country isn’t educated enough to understand why progressive policies must be better — hence why you run someone young and charismatic — hence why Obama swept traditionally red counties that neither Hillary nor Biden picked up.
When the other side are fascists openly running on a platform of doing fascists, needing to feel excited to fall in line and vote against them just makes you a fascist who thinks they can get bribes out of it.
It’s insane that in my lifetime I’ve seen the Dem party at the point where they’ve completely given up on courting and just yell at people that they have to vote for them.
Like, who the fuck is coming up with this strategy, and why is anyone listening to them?
When you only have one choice, you don’t have a choice.
Yea obviously we’re at the point where the only non fascist choice is to vote for an unpopular incumbent, but it seems like the choice has been completely removed from the democratic process in the US and you have to wonder how much of it is exactly by design, and whose.
It’s by the design of the Democrats, though I think our current situation is an unintentional cascade effect.
It’s the result of one of the oldest election strategies in the world that remains incredibly popular for one simple reason: it’s easy and it works. “Vote for me because I’m not the other guy” is a much easier policy to convince people on than actually having any policies of your own.
For many years now Democrats all over the country have been funding the campaigns of the most unhinged and extremist of their opponents to set themselves up for an easy win - there was even a lady who wrote a book about her doing it, only to lose to that same extremist in the very next election.
And that’s why we find ourselves in the situation that we’re in. Because the Dems keep thinking that they can court some mythical moderate Republican voting block by propping extremists up as the nominees. But that doesn’t exist because the Republicans have always been voting against Dems rather than for people they like. Republicans don’t care if the nominee is Bush, Biden, Putin, or Stalin himself, risen from the grave to finally put an end to capitalism. So long as they have an R next to their name instead of a D, that’s who they’re voting for.
But why are the uncharismatic conservative candidates the only other option when we know for a fact they’re not what Dem voters want?
Why not run someone voters actually like and who will get the most votes?
Why don’t you understand that gets the most votes for the Dem candidate?
Although I would like to thank you for not insulting me this time, we’re making progress. Would all caps help you more? I know it’s easier for some to read so I can do that if you’re doing it so you can read easier.
Depending on what you’re using you can make the text appear larger or a better font too.
I notice you’re doing your one sentence per paragraph again.
Ok let’s go through this chronologically (not that I agree Biden is conservative, he’s center).
Bill Clinton: When you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you run from the center. So that’s what he did.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!
Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don’t stick your head out. He ran on vague “hope”, hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush’s disastrous wars. And he won.
Hillary Clinton: After the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, she stuck her head out just a tiny itty little bit with the Map Room to fight climate change. And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters!
On to Biden. Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don’t stick your head out left. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. He’s actually been governing more from the left, but he ran center.
And you’re amazed that they don’t run an extreme left platform? Every time they stick their head out a little itsy bitsy tiny bit left they lose. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, like they’ve lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the centre to find votes.
People shouting at others not to vote don’t deserve to get their asses kissed. This isn’t grade-school where we are all supposed to be nice to the kids throwing temper tantrums so they’ll stop.
They’re showing their asses. They don’t get to whine when people start kicking.
So what are you suggesting come November? All I read when I see comments like yours is “I just want to complain and wish really hard that the Democrats had a unicorn for a candidate”.
Reality is there are only 2 choices in November, and one of those choices will lead this country directly into facism.
Maybe if y’all were capable of saying shit that didn’t instantly wanna make me pull my hair out at the sheer, oh I dunno draw a fucking deadly sin out of a hat at this point, I wouldn’t feel like y’all need the markdown equivalent of the gunnery sergeant hartman treatment to explain basic morals to you abject failures of human empathy.
Naaah… a better strategy is to do absolutely nothing at all, suggest everyone do the same- and expect everything to magically change, right?
We don’t need to be courted. This isn’t a fucking love story. We don’t need a thing handsome and charming hero to swash buckles. We need an effective politician.
Everyone is always whining about Sanders all the time- he was NONE of those things. Ever.
It he is an effective politician.
So stop with the constant bullshit reasons to not vote. Especially this one. It’s probably the word you’ve come up with yet.
Tanked his run by counting all the votes not cast for him?
Why am I still surprised that people who need to be dragged kicking and screaming to generals, nevermind primaries think that people who don’t need any convincing not voting for their guy for them is cheating?
This is a rather unique thing you see on Lemmy I’ve noticed. I mean everyone knows the Democratic Party pulled some bullshit during that primary, but the delusions you see on Lemmy take it so much further. It honestly kind of reminds me of Lost Cause myths. It’s very much in the same vein.
I have legit seen people suggest the very normal and totally socialist thing of counting individual donations instead of ballots as the only legitimate way to run the primary.
The socialists. Wanted to create a literal donor class. That is recognized in party procedures. Because they were that mad that working class black voters identified more with the southern lady than a darkhorse from Vermont who’s not even a party member 99% of the time. Even after a bunch of white liberal arts majors talked at them about how he’s totally down with the culture because he got arrested at a protest one time.
Why not shut the fuck up and vote against the fascists because you’re not a fascist?
Mate…
Do you think you can have this argument with tens of millions of Americans, and it will convince them?
We know what will get enough votes to beat Republicans. But for some reason people just keep repeating that these “moderate” and uncharismatic 70+ year olds have a better shot.
They don’t.
We’re not even arguing if they should have a better shot because of their views.
Because we have literal decades of history to show they’re not what wins elections.
So if all that matter si beating trump, why is this the third election in a row we’re not using the best strategy?
What’s the point of running more conservative candidates than voters want when it makes it more likely the fascists win?
Do you think you can have this argument with tens of millions of Americans, and it will convince them?
Nah bruh. They think they’re arguing against you. That if they abuse you enough that you’ll cow: but if there is one thing we have excellent evidence for, its that abusing or guilting voters into doing what you think they should doesnotwork. Not for Democrats or Republicans.
They are taking the criticisms they should be putting at the feet of the DNC and its associated cheerleaders in media, and blaming the voters. But we all know, they’re just wrong. Like, they’re completely wrong about how voting works, how campaigning works, and how winning elections work.
If they really cared about winning elections, they would bring this criticism to the DNC and demand better candidates; and not budge until they do so. But they actually don’t care about winning the election. They know (I believe) they’ve committed to a losing strategy, and they are setting up the rhetorical case on the back-end so that they have some one to blame for them insisting we do something that isn’t going to work.
Mate how about you stop making excuses for fascists and stop giving them the benefit of being presumed to have a reasonable position that deserves anything but getting called out for their collaborationist shit.
“Tickle my funny bone or I’ll let your kids get sent to camps!”, that’s the mentality you’re trying to argue is fair and reasonable and worth having a debate with as if it’s anything but abject failure of one’s own ability to not be one of the worst kinds of people imagineable.
“Make me excited about not letting the morality police happen!”
“I wanna feel good about preventing contraceptive bans!”
“What am I getting out of preventing them putting machine gun nests on the wall with orders to shoot to kill anyone who approaches?”
Yeah I agree Biden’s boring, I agree Clinton and Gore and Kerry were boring too, doesn’t change that they ran against christofascist candidates, and the supposed not fascists of this country abjectly failed to do their bare minimum duty because “I don’t really feel like it.”
I’m saying we need to do what has the best chance to beating the fascists.
Which is run a charismatic candidate who agrees with Dem voters.
You on the other hand, keep insulting people and saying voters need to compromise but politicians don’t.
That’s not democracy. Especially when the DNC has argued in court they can interfere with a primary as much as they want, because the results are non finding anyways.
Think about that.
It means Dem voters never get any day in who represents them.
When the goal is getting more votes than fascists, that’s not a good plan. We need to start out with a popular candidate that most Dem voters already want to vote for. Not pick someone most dont want and then try to breathe literally tens of millions of people into holding their noses.
You just have a bad plan, and I feel like maybe if you just calm down, you could realize that what matters is beating republicans, so we should run candidates Dem voters want.
If you need more than “the fascists will win if we lose”, you’re a fucking fascist.
Quit trying to make your wanting to be bribed to not let concentration camps happen some kind of moral cause or “well they should have made me want it more!” realist cynic take.
If you need more than “the fascists will win if we lose”, you are a fucking fascist, and will be treated accordingly when the people who you’re actually hurting have their chance to reap justice for what you let be done to them.
I’d take it more seriously if the Democrats did or treated this as a serious issue. Instead they use it as an excuse to be 99% fascist and use it as an excuse to not campaign or take up popular issues because if they lose, it is because the voters didn’t fight to have 99% fascism instead of 100% fascism.
You’re totally right they should just put their hand inside the magical candidate bag where all the charismatic candidates are stored, say the magic formula, and pull one out. How stupid can they be!
If we really want to focus on getting the most popular candidate with voters rather than the corporate favorite moderate…
Dems have complete control of their primary, they can get corporate money out of it at literally any second.
But they dont.
Because the people running the party don’t want the candidate that voters are most likely to vote for. They want the candidate that will get the most donations from corporations and billionaires.
Lots of people keep trying to explain why if beating Republicans is the only thing that matters, everyone involved in the process should make choices that maximize the amount of votes that the Dem candidate gets.
However “moderates” keep insisting the wealthy and corporations gets what they want and everyone else need to support them unquestionably…
Which is already what the Republicans do.
So if both parties are catering to the rich and powerful…
Why not try giving the millions and millions of voters what they want and making the rich and powerful compromise?
Why do they always win no matter what?
Historically giving Dem voters a candidate they want translates to a Dem president.
Biden won by less than 100k.votes spread out between 3-5 battleground states. And has nowhere near his 2020 support. Probably because in 2020 he was pretending to be more left leaning.
And 2024 he’s just ignoring anyone that’s saying anything besides unadulterated praise.
No!…it’s the voters who are wrong. Better blame theme some more, as that will surely boost our historically abysmal national voter turnout come November.
I’m starting to think that the corporations (who own both parties, but prefer republicans) are sabotaging the democrats. That’s why they ran Hillary. And now we have an absolute joke of a Supreme Court that will suck every single nanoliter of jizz from the corporate dick any time day or night.
I’m starting to think that the corporations (who own both parties, but prefer republicans) are sabotaging the democrats. That’s why they ran Hillary.
Oh my god you’re so frustratingly close to realizing the truth that we’ve been telling you all along.
The corporations (and Putin) did sabotage the Democrats. But not by some bizarre overcomplicated plan of infiltrating of the DNC to send up moderate candidates who consistently win the popular vote yet are just unlikeable enough to not win swing states. They just used propaganda to get people like you to hate perfectly good candidates.
You can see controlled opposition in the Green party and RFK Jr. They put up shit candidates and then try to pull some people away from Democrats. If the corporations and Putin could infiltrate the Democratic party, they would just have the DNC close up shop and we would have Republicans forever. Why the fuck would corporations try to put up a candidate who wants to raise their taxes?
You’re coming up with these insane scenarios because it’s embarrassing to admit that you are one of the ones who fell for the propaganda, but think about it. Occams Razor. That’s the simplest explanation.
Blackstone wants democrats to win while Blackrock wants republicans to win. To corporations, the choice between biden and trump is like Coke vs Pepsi because they largely win either way even if they’re a bit disappointed they have to drink Pepsi when they wanted Coke.
Heaven forbid we try running charismatic candidates like Obama and Bill…
Like, it’s insane to me that everyone seems to be aware of what wins elections, but the people running the Dem party just keep insisting we need to shut up and vote for someone very few people actually want.
Like, we can’t do this without the voters, they’re the irreplaceable part.
We can get different people to run the party, or just coalesce around another.
Democrats need to fall in love. Republicans just need to fall in line.
It’s like you read the meme and went yep, totally their fault. I’m ok with my life gets shittier until I fall in love with a politician. It’s not my fault. I am owed this.
Is there a term for the political version of an incel?
Yes. It’s called a political agitator.
This user canvases lemmy threads with anti Biden and anti Dem strawman arguments completely out of context of the thread. Every thread calling out Republicans for bullshit, this user is there never acknowledging how terrible the GOP is, and going straight into anti dem whataboutism.
Just look at the sheer number of comments this user posts daily. And search the mod logs for deleted comments on this user.
If they’re not being paid to disenfranchise progressive voters into abstaining from this election, they should look for a sponsor because they’re working for free.
100%. You hardly ever see these people in any posts critical of Trump, though the few that you do see, just turn it around on Biden.
They’re clearly here to disrupt the election.
Just ask them who they’d put in Biden’s stead that has a remote chance to win the election. I do this all the time. So far- NONE have provided a viable name. Not one. Just backtracking, ad hominem, and doublespeak nonsense.
Your car has a blown head gasket. It still turns over, but the check engine light is always an on the oil looks like peanut-butter.
You need to drive 100 miles to get to the airport tomorrow. All the indications you have suggest your car isn’t going to make it. Every piece of reliable data you have says its not going to work. Historically, people have tried to use cars like this to get to the air port, it doesn’t work. You have friends and family members with cars would happily drive you to the airport. You could even just borrow their car. Technically you haven’t decided what car to drive to the airport yet; this actually doesn’t happen till you and your family have a group call tonight. You have alternatives.
Biden is the car. Literally any generic Democrat is the car of your friends or family. The group call is the convention.
You are insisting on a strategy that is going to hand Trump the election. When it does, we’ll be pointing to these posts of yours.
Insisting we run Biden when we haven’t had a convention and literally every Democratic governor polls higher is you insisting we lose this one.
Biden is not a car. He’s a presidential candidate. I suggest you take this shit seriously. Because pouting and withholding your vote because you’re not getting what you want is going to get you EVERYTHING you don’t want. And it is going to hurt a LOT of people.
You are the one not taking it seriously. I watched Kerry fail to Bush. I watched Clinton fail to Trump.
Biden won in 2020 in spite of being Biden. It’s 4 years later and he’s become a worse candidate. This candidate can’t win.
You need to take this shit seriously instead of insisting on a strategy that guarantees us Trump.
Okay. I think we’re done here man. I have drawn out your bad argument about as good as I think I can. You’ve made it pretty clear that you’re not here in in any capacity of good faith and at this point it’s pretty clear what you’re up to.
You managed to not only lie to yourself, but you’ve backed that lie up with false data created by… yourself. That’s some inception-level cognitive dissonance.
I’m not going to block you, but I’m done talking to you. So… have the last word.
Don’t block these guys, it’s what they want.
And I don’t mean that in a “don’t give them the satisfaction” way. I mean that’s what they’re paid to do. When people like us block people like them, it’s easier for them to spread their propaganda. Because we don’t call it out, because we don’t see it.
Blocking someone is not silencing them, it’s just plugging your ears.
You are completely detached from reality. Go look up the Gallup polling data and check my methods. I’ve explained them clearly enough to be reproduced.
You aren’t interested in a conversation grounded in reality, and you just can’t comprehend something that doesn’t agree with your assumptions.
Bidens not winning this election. He hasn’t been the whole time. In 450 days he hasn’t been leading in polling. He’s a fucking disaster, and you and others who insist this guy who is visibly incapable of winning are the ones responsible for Trump.
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I’m just gonna stick to pointing out one particular lie. Not the most obvious or egregious one, but definitely the funniest one.
HAHAHAHAHA THE FUCK YOU DID
Weird analogy.
Bernie Sanders 2024!
This is a fantastic metaphor but I’m afraid it’ll be lost on Blue MAGA.
It really has become a cult of failure.
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Yeah ok. Plenty of people were saying the same thing while letting Hitler rise to power too. But what could we possibly learn from history?
You do, of course, realize Hitler was put into power by the conservatives, right? Like, von Pappen was Centre Party, von Hindenburg was a nationalist. They turned to Hitler to avoid losing power to the left.
And come November, what are you suggesting? Biden or Trump, because those are your only viable choices.
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They’re our only viable choices now because the primaries are over, and as much as people here want a super leftist candidate, the reality is that when it’s time to vote, those candidates don’t get enough votes either because these same people don’t actually vote, or this stance isn’t nearly as popular as some may think. I say this all as a Bernie supporter, but vocally against the disinformation agents who push agendas like “both sides” or the previous “Bernie or Bust” mantra.
Like it or not, the reality is, come the general election it’s either Biden or Trump. Unfortunately, anything other than a Biden vote helps Trump.
Gnash teeth and complain all you want, but that’s reality. Anyone pushing another agenda is lying or naive.
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It’s not just the president, you need to vote for house of reps and Senate. Obama only had control for 2/8 years. In that time he got the ACA. The remaining 6 years of Obama the GOP were more than happy to block everything. They even shut down the government. If you need charisma to feed your emotions every 4 years, yeesh.
*Oh I caught on, it’s the thiny veiled Biden bad, hinting he has no charisma and nobody wants to vote for him. “They just have to run someone else nudge nudge. Someone else to run the party wink wink.” Nuts to that, Biden is doing great.
I get people want to fall in line at this point and I have and will vote for Biden, but your head is deep in the sand if you believe Biden’s senility and lack of charisma isn’t hurting him here. The only thing we’re lucky on is that Donald is running again who is for all intents just as senile and far more deranged and far less compassionate.
But Biden doesn’t hold a candle to Obama.
There it is again “senility”. Everyone working with him says he’s sharp, but you just gotta get it in. Would I prefer younger? Sure. But he’s not senile JFC. Lack of charisma? The guy presents absolutely fine and does great work. How much does one need to appeal to emotions.
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This “we need someone charismatic and then we’ll vote” is the emotion for the supposed logical, informed, left wing voter, who votes based on policy (or lack of policy when they protest no vote).
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Funny because I think it’s the other way around, people screaming “but but but charisma! But but but old!”
I thought maybe it was someone else I just told but no it’s you. These are the supposed logical people waiting for the supposed logical platform. But no, they want emotions. Notice that doesn’t add up?
And you’re still trying to sneak it in. Biden is just fine charismatically.
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Not the guy you’re discussing with, but on this rare occasion I’ll toot my own horn for once: If only the average American were as intelligent — or at least informed — as me. Unfortunately one must get on their level, sometimes. Besides, having a logical platform and having the charismatic youthful platform are not mutually-exclusive things.
Welcome to America, where everything from high school to your career prospects is basically a popularity contest as opposed to a formal job interview based on legitimate experience and qualifications.
They who can thread the needle between populism and substantive policy win.
I’m just happy Donald is the nominee again because I don’t think Biden could’ve beat anyone else.
Okay, dude — Just humor me for a second:
NOW, here’s the thing: less time needs to be spent trying to shore up the bullshit argument that Biden is “sharp as ever,” and more about pivoting to Trump’s incoherent rambles and his own age. Acknowledging Biden’s age is actually a great one-two punch to use for anyone on the fence because it gives you a point where both can agree: “Yeah, I agree Biden is showing his age clearly. No differently than McConnell… No differently than Donald (give examples), but I think Biden is at least a more compassionate person… And say, while we’re at it, can we agree we should have an age limit if we already have an age-minimum on the Presidency?” <clinks-beers and everybody laughs.>
This wasn’t about him being old, this was about you saying “senility” and whoever didn’t believe that had was “head is deep in the sand”. But when I call that out, you have to pivot that to old.
Ok I should have said people that meet him say he’s sharp. They are not beholden to him. One guy met him said he remember meeting his mom like a decade prior and remembered her and all the details. Fuck that’s better than I do. Now in case you say “but that’s not work”, but yes also the people that work with him say he’s sharp too. Seems to me you just want to get the ‘senile’ bit out any way you can.
Wow and now you’re trying to ignore that he does in fact have a stutter? Ok that’s about it, you’ve shown you’re dead set on vilification no matter what. Stutters come and go, how prepared you are for a speech, etc. It’s not consistent that never changes one bit.
Thanks for showing the world that your mission is to bad mouth Biden. You sneak in “senile” then pivot when called out. You say everything good must be bootlickers. And you preemptively try to ignore that he has a stutter. I’m probably not going to reply anymore.
Geriatric, old, senile — same thing for all intents of this discussion. Yes, they are head-deep in the sand.
Hell just watch the clips from this Daily Show skit of Biden.. I can tell you three things: (1) Obama never did this, (2) Biden never did this during Obama’s first term in office, and (3) this is clearly a sign of senility no different than McConnell just freezing during a press conference.
Not what I said. Work on reading-comprehension, please. Try again and stop putting words in my mouth.
Also I didn’t “sneak” senile in anywhere — I said it quite in the open, really.
senile /sē′nīl″, sĕn′īl″/ adjective
Relating to or having diminished cognitive function, as when memory is impaired, because of old age.
Being a disease or condition whose cause is primarily advanced age. “senile cataracts.”
No not the same thing.
And attacks. Ciao.
Yes, that’s the correct use here.
I’ll repeat the deflected:
Hell just watch the clips from this Daily Show skit of Biden.. I can tell you three things: (1) Obama never did this, (2) Biden never did this during Obama’s first term in office, and (3) this is clearly a sign of senility no different than McConnell just freezing during a press conference.
You already attacked, hypocrite. Auf wiedersehen.
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You missed basket of deplorables which is likely the exact moment she really lost.
Pokemon Go to the polls. That campaign had a death by 1000 paper cuts. Yet she still won the popular vote.
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I’m no Hillary fan, but I thought the consensus was she lost because of Comey’s bullshit October surprise.
Her Basket of Deplorables remark is actually the moment she MOST energized her base and grassroots coalition. That was a blip of authenticity I and many others appreciated.
You know, the people who actually go out and do the door-knocking, phone-banking, fundraising, and pushing back against Uncle Bob and their parents while dragging their friend to the poll out of voter-enthusiasm.
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And she was fucking right, like she was about everything, and I suspect that deep down you people know it, and are ashamed, and that’s why you lash out at her.
Right!?
Young and charismatic. That’s all that is necessary for Dems to sweep elections. Proven time and time again. With a hearty message of progress and love.
It’s that fucking simple.
(signed someone who ultimately voted for Hillary and Biden but they were far from my 1st preference in the primaries).
Edit: Typo.
Young and charismatic might mean higher taxes for the rich and more progressive policies.
The Democratic leadership doesn’t want that. They really like the neoliberal consensus, they like having funding parity with the Republicans. They like being seen as “very serious people “ and they’re deathly afraid of being called socialists.
The problem is that their apparatchiks all came of age, politically, in the 1990s under that same neoliberal golden age. That’s not the world they’re in anymore. They aren’t running against Bush the Elder, and cutting taxes while playing jazz isn’t going to cut it when they’re losing working class votes to fascists.
We saw this play out horribly in the UK: where Labour’s party leaders would rather sabotage their own leader because he was too progressive then risk him winning and give socialism credibility.
The political left really liked the 1990s, but it’s a bygo era and it isn’t coming back.
I agree that the third-way shtick of the Clinton era must go. Watering down reality to appeal to ignorance just doesn’t work.
How long til they all die of old age?
Do we have that long?
Not if Drumpf gets the electoral college majority.
I mean, big nuts that’ll ever happen. There’s no glut of idiots no matter what generation you look at, I’m sure they can just keep appointing cynical self-interested assholes to succeed them whenever they drop.
The last time the Democrats ran a progressive candidate allowed Nixon to sweep every state except a few in that election. I mean, just look at this shit!
So yeah, if anyone is wondering why the Democrats don’t run progressive candidates, this is why! They’ve only moved further to the right since then. Expecting Democrats to run a progressive would likely sweep the whole nation blue, but if you thought tRump was bad, a progressive would be just as bad for monied interests, which have only grown more emboldened and enriched the last 40-45 years.
It will take a lot of time, I’m afraid, to undo the damage Republicans have have done with their shitty ideals and politics, starting largely with Reagan’s racist, homophobic, anti-union, and regulation gutting bullshit!
In fairness I emphasized young and charismatic — was McGovern charismatic? I don’t know about that.
Still, I think this is the exception as opposed to the norm, considering we can point to FDR, JFK, Carter, Clinton, and Obama. RFK was setting up to be another obvious front-runner.
It’s a race to the bottom to put forward someone who will water their rhetoric down and cater to ignorance; but of course, some of the country isn’t educated enough to understand why progressive policies must be better — hence why you run someone young and charismatic — hence why Obama swept traditionally red counties that neither Hillary nor Biden picked up.
When the other side are fascists openly running on a platform of doing fascists, needing to feel excited to fall in line and vote against them just makes you a fascist who thinks they can get bribes out of it.
Who cares?
What works is running charismatic candidates.
So why not run charismatic candidates and beat the fascists?
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I can’t control how other people vote, but the party’s can. That’s their job.
I knew the DNC fucked up when they tanked Bernie’s run.
And look what we got.
It’s insane that in my lifetime I’ve seen the Dem party at the point where they’ve completely given up on courting and just yell at people that they have to vote for them.
Like, who the fuck is coming up with this strategy, and why is anyone listening to them?
It just makes zero sense.
YOU DO HAVE TO VOTE FOR THEM
THE OTHER OPTION IS LETTING FASCISM HAPPEN
WE HAVE FOR OVER TWENTY YEARS NOW ACTUALLY BEEN IN A SITUATION WHERE, YES, GENUINELY, YOU DO ACTUALLY JUST HAVE TO VOTE FOR THEM
GOOD PEOPLE DO NOT TO BE MADE TO BE EXCITED BY DOING THEIR DUTY TO PROTECT THE MOST VULNERABLE WHO CANNOT SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES
YOU DO ACTUALLY JUST HAVE TO VOTE FOR THEM TO NOT BE AN AWFUL FUCKING HUMAN BEING WHO DESERVES SCORN FOR BEING FUCKING AWFUL
When you only have one choice, you don’t have a choice.
Yea obviously we’re at the point where the only non fascist choice is to vote for an unpopular incumbent, but it seems like the choice has been completely removed from the democratic process in the US and you have to wonder how much of it is exactly by design, and whose.
It’s by the design of the Democrats, though I think our current situation is an unintentional cascade effect.
It’s the result of one of the oldest election strategies in the world that remains incredibly popular for one simple reason: it’s easy and it works. “Vote for me because I’m not the other guy” is a much easier policy to convince people on than actually having any policies of your own.
For many years now Democrats all over the country have been funding the campaigns of the most unhinged and extremist of their opponents to set themselves up for an easy win - there was even a lady who wrote a book about her doing it, only to lose to that same extremist in the very next election.
And that’s why we find ourselves in the situation that we’re in. Because the Dems keep thinking that they can court some mythical moderate Republican voting block by propping extremists up as the nominees. But that doesn’t exist because the Republicans have always been voting against Dems rather than for people they like. Republicans don’t care if the nominee is Bush, Biden, Putin, or Stalin himself, risen from the grave to finally put an end to capitalism. So long as they have an R next to their name instead of a D, that’s who they’re voting for.
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damn, never thought about it like that, but that’s a pretty succinct way to put it
But why are the uncharismatic conservative candidates the only other option when we know for a fact they’re not what Dem voters want?
Why not run someone voters actually like and who will get the most votes?
Why don’t you understand that gets the most votes for the Dem candidate?
Although I would like to thank you for not insulting me this time, we’re making progress. Would all caps help you more? I know it’s easier for some to read so I can do that if you’re doing it so you can read easier.
Depending on what you’re using you can make the text appear larger or a better font too.
I notice you’re doing your one sentence per paragraph again.
Ok let’s go through this chronologically (not that I agree Biden is conservative, he’s center).
Bill Clinton: When you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you run from the center. So that’s what he did.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!
Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don’t stick your head out. He ran on vague “hope”, hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush’s disastrous wars. And he won.
Hillary Clinton: After the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, she stuck her head out just a tiny itty little bit with the Map Room to fight climate change. And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters!
On to Biden. Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don’t stick your head out left. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. He’s actually been governing more from the left, but he ran center.
And you’re amazed that they don’t run an extreme left platform? Every time they stick their head out a little itsy bitsy tiny bit left they lose. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, like they’ve lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the centre to find votes.
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People shouting at others not to vote don’t deserve to get their asses kissed. This isn’t grade-school where we are all supposed to be nice to the kids throwing temper tantrums so they’ll stop.
They’re showing their asses. They don’t get to whine when people start kicking.
So what are you suggesting come November? All I read when I see comments like yours is “I just want to complain and wish really hard that the Democrats had a unicorn for a candidate”.
Reality is there are only 2 choices in November, and one of those choices will lead this country directly into facism.
Big caps with bold! Listen to meeeeee!
Maybe if y’all were capable of saying shit that didn’t instantly wanna make me pull my hair out at the sheer, oh I dunno draw a fucking deadly sin out of a hat at this point, I wouldn’t feel like y’all need the markdown equivalent of the gunnery sergeant hartman treatment to explain basic morals to you abject failures of human empathy.
Naaah… a better strategy is to do absolutely nothing at all, suggest everyone do the same- and expect everything to magically change, right?
We don’t need to be courted. This isn’t a fucking love story. We don’t need a thing handsome and charming hero to swash buckles. We need an effective politician.
Everyone is always whining about Sanders all the time- he was NONE of those things. Ever.
It he is an effective politician.
So stop with the constant bullshit reasons to not vote. Especially this one. It’s probably the word you’ve come up with yet.
Tanked his run by counting all the votes not cast for him?
Why am I still surprised that people who need to be dragged kicking and screaming to generals, nevermind primaries think that people who don’t need any convincing not voting for their guy for them is cheating?
No, by obstructing his and his supporters efforts in key primaries, because the DNC knew they wanted Hillary for reasons.
This is a rather unique thing you see on Lemmy I’ve noticed. I mean everyone knows the Democratic Party pulled some bullshit during that primary, but the delusions you see on Lemmy take it so much further. It honestly kind of reminds me of Lost Cause myths. It’s very much in the same vein.
I have legit seen people suggest the very normal and totally socialist thing of counting individual donations instead of ballots as the only legitimate way to run the primary.
The socialists. Wanted to create a literal donor class. That is recognized in party procedures. Because they were that mad that working class black voters identified more with the southern lady than a darkhorse from Vermont who’s not even a party member 99% of the time. Even after a bunch of white liberal arts majors talked at them about how he’s totally down with the culture because he got arrested at a protest one time.
Mate…
Do you think you can have this argument with tens of millions of Americans, and it will convince them?
We know what will get enough votes to beat Republicans. But for some reason people just keep repeating that these “moderate” and uncharismatic 70+ year olds have a better shot.
They don’t.
We’re not even arguing if they should have a better shot because of their views.
Because we have literal decades of history to show they’re not what wins elections.
So if all that matter si beating trump, why is this the third election in a row we’re not using the best strategy?
What’s the point of running more conservative candidates than voters want when it makes it more likely the fascists win?
Nah bruh. They think they’re arguing against you. That if they abuse you enough that you’ll cow: but if there is one thing we have excellent evidence for, its that abusing or guilting voters into doing what you think they should does not work. Not for Democrats or Republicans.
They are taking the criticisms they should be putting at the feet of the DNC and its associated cheerleaders in media, and blaming the voters. But we all know, they’re just wrong. Like, they’re completely wrong about how voting works, how campaigning works, and how winning elections work.
If they really cared about winning elections, they would bring this criticism to the DNC and demand better candidates; and not budge until they do so. But they actually don’t care about winning the election. They know (I believe) they’ve committed to a losing strategy, and they are setting up the rhetorical case on the back-end so that they have some one to blame for them insisting we do something that isn’t going to work.
Mate how about you stop making excuses for fascists and stop giving them the benefit of being presumed to have a reasonable position that deserves anything but getting called out for their collaborationist shit.
“Tickle my funny bone or I’ll let your kids get sent to camps!”, that’s the mentality you’re trying to argue is fair and reasonable and worth having a debate with as if it’s anything but abject failure of one’s own ability to not be one of the worst kinds of people imagineable.
“Make me excited about not letting the morality police happen!”
“I wanna feel good about preventing contraceptive bans!”
“What am I getting out of preventing them putting machine gun nests on the wall with orders to shoot to kill anyone who approaches?”
Yeah I agree Biden’s boring, I agree Clinton and Gore and Kerry were boring too, doesn’t change that they ran against christofascist candidates, and the supposed not fascists of this country abjectly failed to do their bare minimum duty because “I don’t really feel like it.”
Who’s doing that?
I’m saying we need to do what has the best chance to beating the fascists.
Which is run a charismatic candidate who agrees with Dem voters.
You on the other hand, keep insulting people and saying voters need to compromise but politicians don’t.
That’s not democracy. Especially when the DNC has argued in court they can interfere with a primary as much as they want, because the results are non finding anyways.
Think about that.
It means Dem voters never get any day in who represents them.
When the goal is getting more votes than fascists, that’s not a good plan. We need to start out with a popular candidate that most Dem voters already want to vote for. Not pick someone most dont want and then try to breathe literally tens of millions of people into holding their noses.
You just have a bad plan, and I feel like maybe if you just calm down, you could realize that what matters is beating republicans, so we should run candidates Dem voters want.
Dude, you’re killing it! Never let up.
^Someone who doesn’t actually want to win elections.
“It’s not our job to campaign or do politics, the Democrats cannot fail, only be failed” - Democrats, totally caring about fascism.
If you need more than “the fascists will win if we lose”, you’re a fucking fascist.
Quit trying to make your wanting to be bribed to not let concentration camps happen some kind of moral cause or “well they should have made me want it more!” realist cynic take.
If you need more than “the fascists will win if we lose”, you are a fucking fascist, and will be treated accordingly when the people who you’re actually hurting have their chance to reap justice for what you let be done to them.
I’d take it more seriously if the Democrats did or treated this as a serious issue. Instead they use it as an excuse to be 99% fascist and use it as an excuse to not campaign or take up popular issues because if they lose, it is because the voters didn’t fight to have 99% fascism instead of 100% fascism.
You’re totally right they should just put their hand inside the magical candidate bag where all the charismatic candidates are stored, say the magic formula, and pull one out. How stupid can they be!
We could try running a fair and open primary…
If we really want to focus on getting the most popular candidate with voters rather than the corporate favorite moderate…
Dems have complete control of their primary, they can get corporate money out of it at literally any second.
But they dont.
Because the people running the party don’t want the candidate that voters are most likely to vote for. They want the candidate that will get the most donations from corporations and billionaires.
Lots of people keep trying to explain why if beating Republicans is the only thing that matters, everyone involved in the process should make choices that maximize the amount of votes that the Dem candidate gets.
However “moderates” keep insisting the wealthy and corporations gets what they want and everyone else need to support them unquestionably…
Which is already what the Republicans do.
So if both parties are catering to the rich and powerful…
Why not try giving the millions and millions of voters what they want and making the rich and powerful compromise?
Why do they always win no matter what?
Historically giving Dem voters a candidate they want translates to a Dem president.
Biden won by less than 100k.votes spread out between 3-5 battleground states. And has nowhere near his 2020 support. Probably because in 2020 he was pretending to be more left leaning.
And 2024 he’s just ignoring anyone that’s saying anything besides unadulterated praise.
No!…it’s the voters who are wrong. Better blame theme some more, as that will surely boost our historically abysmal national voter turnout come November.
/s
I’m starting to think that the corporations (who own both parties, but prefer republicans) are sabotaging the democrats. That’s why they ran Hillary. And now we have an absolute joke of a Supreme Court that will suck every single nanoliter of jizz from the corporate dick any time day or night.
Oh my god you’re so frustratingly close to realizing the truth that we’ve been telling you all along.
The corporations (and Putin) did sabotage the Democrats. But not by some bizarre overcomplicated plan of infiltrating of the DNC to send up moderate candidates who consistently win the popular vote yet are just unlikeable enough to not win swing states. They just used propaganda to get people like you to hate perfectly good candidates.
You can see controlled opposition in the Green party and RFK Jr. They put up shit candidates and then try to pull some people away from Democrats. If the corporations and Putin could infiltrate the Democratic party, they would just have the DNC close up shop and we would have Republicans forever. Why the fuck would corporations try to put up a candidate who wants to raise their taxes?
You’re coming up with these insane scenarios because it’s embarrassing to admit that you are one of the ones who fell for the propaganda, but think about it. Occams Razor. That’s the simplest explanation.
Ok
Blackstone wants democrats to win while Blackrock wants republicans to win. To corporations, the choice between biden and trump is like Coke vs Pepsi because they largely win either way even if they’re a bit disappointed they have to drink Pepsi when they wanted Coke.