President Joe Biden, speaking to the nation from the Oval Office Wednesday evening, framed his decision to step aside from the 2024 presidential race as a matter of saving democracy and passing “the torch to a new generation.”
Your argument here might hold some weight if it weren’t for the fact that the only reason this conversation is even happening is that the presumptive Democratic candidate just voluntary withdrew from the race when it became clear that he couldn’t win. The last guy staged a fucking coup after he lost.
How many months did you just spend bitching and moaning about how anyone would be better than Joe? Now you have anyone else and you’re still salty about it. I wonder how you could make it any more transparent that your goal is just to discourage people from voting.
Since you seem willing to engage in discourse about this, I feel similarly to the person you replied to and can explain my position. I don’t want to discourage anyone from voting, I have two goals:
Don’t concede the White House to Trump
Fight back against the Democratic Party’s efforts to reduce the voice of the people.
I’m guessing we agree on #1 and disagree on the premise of #2. I see #2 as a systemic pattern that really launched after the 2008 primaries when Obama disrupted the plan to place Hillary in the White House. It came to a head in 2016 and has been rippling ever since.
I never believed Joe should have run again in the first place, and in the last month it became clear that him running was detrimental to #1. So we push for him to step aside, while I still think he shouldn’t have run in the first place. He steps down, and you feel satisfied because goal #1 is protected. But I’m deeply unsettled by the damage that has been done to #2. The Democrats just figured out how to skip the voice of the people entirely.
The last time this happened (1968 primaries, eerily similar) the Democrats launched a committee to reform the primary process into what it is today. A big improvement over what it was before, but Biden just revealed a significant weakness in it.
I’m happy to vote for Harris to fulfill #1, I’m thrilled that there was a surge in registrations. But if the Democrats don’t address the critical problem of this process we all just witnessed, I fear #2 becomes unreachable. The Democrats are our only hope of saving our democracy, so if they abandon democracy within their party (like I have seen happening over the last 16 years), it’s a hollow victory.
I’m not convinced that the party rallying behind the incumbent president and/or VP is nearly as much of a problem as you’re making it out to be. Hillary got more votes than Bernie in 2016 and I know all the Bernie bros complain that the party conspired against him, but they always ignore the fact that Bernie is only a Democrat during the campaign and an Independent the rest of the time. Why would the DNC throw its weight behind someone like that rather than someone who has been active in the party for decades?
Joe probably shouldn’t have run again, but it’s not really a surprise that he did. What would have been nice is if Kamala had been out there pushing some policy and letting people know who she is over the last four years, but for some reason that didn’t happen and here we are. Maybe the party’s processes do need reform. Super delegates are inherently undemocratic, but I don’t think they’ve tipped the scales one way or the other too badly recently.
You can also just look at give’s history. He was relentlessly “genocide joe, blue maga, both sides…” for months. Even on articles that had nothing to do with Biden or Gaza and has developed a reputation for not being a good faith participant in any of the discussions around here which is why I felt the need to call him out. Especially when he keeps yelling about how the democrats are just as bad as republicans in an article about the Democratic president voluntary backing out of the race.
I tried to engage you in honest discourse explaining my position and you immediately went straight to all of your favorite one-liners designed to undermine without actually addressing anything.
All of your points are easily refuted and I’m happy to write them out if you need me to, but it’s a conversation that’s been done to death since 2016. I’ll do one: “Bernie Bros” voted Hillary better than Hillary supporters voted for Obama. Leave your sexist bullshit at home unless you want to admit your camp is racist.
Sexism and racism? Jesus Christ man if accusations of prejudice are the only response you have to my comment, seemingly triggered by two words in the first paragraph, you clearly weren’t actually interested in honest discourse and have ensured that none is possible. Piss off.
I’m guessing we agree on #1 and disagree on the premise of #2. I see #2 as a systemic pattern that really launched after the 2008 primaries when Obama disrupted the plan to place Hillary in the White House. It came to a head in 2016 and has been rippling ever since.
THANK YOU. It’s fucking insane seeing people claim “well uhhh nobody ever complained about this before! maybe you should’ve complained about this before, maybe then things would’ve changed!” just because republicans decided to adopt it as a talking point since they’re scrambling to come up with a new strategy and their plans have gone to shit. It’s partisan brainworms of the highest order. I guess it’s not surprising that they haven’t heard these complaints or noticed these trends when they all only become fixated on keeping the pendulum republican candidate out for 6 months out of every four years at most and then completely go back to sleep for the rest of the time.
God, these people are so fucking intolerant of any criticism of their party, it’s absurd. I really tried to engage in an honest discourse and the person reverted straight back to petty sexist bullshit and nonsequitors, ignoring what I said entirely.
It’s such an embodiment of the out-of-touch Democratic party and how they can’t possibly fathom any other point of view.
Are you really this butthurt that I calmly disagreed with you? I guess it’s my own fault for actually believing you when you said you wanted an honest discussion.
Calmly? You invoked a sexist term and then when I called you out on it you called me “triggered” and now “butthurt.” It’s very clear what kind of person you are now, and it’s not the even-tempered tolerant person you like to paint yourself to be.
I do want an honest discussion, my first comment was very respectful of our differences of opinion. You then immediately brought in bigotry-charged name-calling to the thread.
Being a bigot “calmly” isn’t something anyone should ever tolerate.
Your argument here might hold some weight if it weren’t for the fact that the only reason this conversation is even happening is that the presumptive Democratic candidate just voluntary withdrew from the race when it became clear that he couldn’t win. The last guy staged a fucking coup after he lost.
How many months did you just spend bitching and moaning about how anyone would be better than Joe? Now you have anyone else and you’re still salty about it. I wonder how you could make it any more transparent that your goal is just to discourage people from voting.
Removed by mod
Since you seem willing to engage in discourse about this, I feel similarly to the person you replied to and can explain my position. I don’t want to discourage anyone from voting, I have two goals:
I’m guessing we agree on #1 and disagree on the premise of #2. I see #2 as a systemic pattern that really launched after the 2008 primaries when Obama disrupted the plan to place Hillary in the White House. It came to a head in 2016 and has been rippling ever since.
I never believed Joe should have run again in the first place, and in the last month it became clear that him running was detrimental to #1. So we push for him to step aside, while I still think he shouldn’t have run in the first place. He steps down, and you feel satisfied because goal #1 is protected. But I’m deeply unsettled by the damage that has been done to #2. The Democrats just figured out how to skip the voice of the people entirely.
The last time this happened (1968 primaries, eerily similar) the Democrats launched a committee to reform the primary process into what it is today. A big improvement over what it was before, but Biden just revealed a significant weakness in it.
I’m happy to vote for Harris to fulfill #1, I’m thrilled that there was a surge in registrations. But if the Democrats don’t address the critical problem of this process we all just witnessed, I fear #2 becomes unreachable. The Democrats are our only hope of saving our democracy, so if they abandon democracy within their party (like I have seen happening over the last 16 years), it’s a hollow victory.
I’m not convinced that the party rallying behind the incumbent president and/or VP is nearly as much of a problem as you’re making it out to be. Hillary got more votes than Bernie in 2016 and I know all the Bernie bros complain that the party conspired against him, but they always ignore the fact that Bernie is only a Democrat during the campaign and an Independent the rest of the time. Why would the DNC throw its weight behind someone like that rather than someone who has been active in the party for decades?
Joe probably shouldn’t have run again, but it’s not really a surprise that he did. What would have been nice is if Kamala had been out there pushing some policy and letting people know who she is over the last four years, but for some reason that didn’t happen and here we are. Maybe the party’s processes do need reform. Super delegates are inherently undemocratic, but I don’t think they’ve tipped the scales one way or the other too badly recently.
You can also just look at give’s history. He was relentlessly “genocide joe, blue maga, both sides…” for months. Even on articles that had nothing to do with Biden or Gaza and has developed a reputation for not being a good faith participant in any of the discussions around here which is why I felt the need to call him out. Especially when he keeps yelling about how the democrats are just as bad as republicans in an article about the Democratic president voluntary backing out of the race.
I tried to engage you in honest discourse explaining my position and you immediately went straight to all of your favorite one-liners designed to undermine without actually addressing anything.
All of your points are easily refuted and I’m happy to write them out if you need me to, but it’s a conversation that’s been done to death since 2016. I’ll do one: “Bernie Bros” voted Hillary better than Hillary supporters voted for Obama. Leave your sexist bullshit at home unless you want to admit your camp is racist.
Sexism and racism? Jesus Christ man if accusations of prejudice are the only response you have to my comment, seemingly triggered by two words in the first paragraph, you clearly weren’t actually interested in honest discourse and have ensured that none is possible. Piss off.
You were the one who brought the sexist term “Bernie Bro” in. That’s a cheap smear campaign term designed to invoke sexism. Stop using it.
When you want to talk without your unnecessary insults and sexist terms, I’m happy to talk.
THANK YOU. It’s fucking insane seeing people claim “well uhhh nobody ever complained about this before! maybe you should’ve complained about this before, maybe then things would’ve changed!” just because republicans decided to adopt it as a talking point since they’re scrambling to come up with a new strategy and their plans have gone to shit. It’s partisan brainworms of the highest order. I guess it’s not surprising that they haven’t heard these complaints or noticed these trends when they all only become fixated on keeping the pendulum republican candidate out for 6 months out of every four years at most and then completely go back to sleep for the rest of the time.
God, these people are so fucking intolerant of any criticism of their party, it’s absurd. I really tried to engage in an honest discourse and the person reverted straight back to petty sexist bullshit and nonsequitors, ignoring what I said entirely.
It’s such an embodiment of the out-of-touch Democratic party and how they can’t possibly fathom any other point of view.
Are you really this butthurt that I calmly disagreed with you? I guess it’s my own fault for actually believing you when you said you wanted an honest discussion.
Calmly? You invoked a sexist term and then when I called you out on it you called me “triggered” and now “butthurt.” It’s very clear what kind of person you are now, and it’s not the even-tempered tolerant person you like to paint yourself to be.
I do want an honest discussion, my first comment was very respectful of our differences of opinion. You then immediately brought in bigotry-charged name-calling to the thread.
Being a bigot “calmly” isn’t something anyone should ever tolerate.