Good points. I agree with the paradox of tolerance and your other points.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. This type of discussion is why in use social.media but it is rare to get past the partisan brigading.
Civil disobedience is an interesting point in this case. Personally, I probably would have acted as this Canadian woman did.
What I am struggling with is understanding what counts as a disinformation campaign. I read in your post that you’d answer this as a society and with research however, if you were put in charge of this research tomorrow, do you have a draft definition of a disinformation campaign?
I ask as I try to see the world in black and white and steer clear of the grey however, this is rarely possible.
Free speech being a good example. It’s either a 1 or 0.
We learn what is true through observation and math. We establish things that we know to be true with scientific studies. When we see a campaign spreading information we know to be false, that would be a disinformation campaign.
Here is argument from that comment supported by that source:
Gender affirming care involves helping trans people, both youths and adults, to transition to their gender identity through the use of therapy, puberty blockers, and hormone therapy. It is lifesaving care. Unsubstantiated attacks to gender affirming care are a threat to the lives of all trans people. Threatening the lives of people with a disinformation campaign is a breach of the social contract of tolerance. When fascists attempt to spread life-threatening disinformation campaigns, people at all levels of society should stand up to them.
We aren’t going to be able to come up with a definition for all possible disinformation campaigns. We do not know everything. However such a definition is not needed to prevent specific disinformation campaigns. And it is possible to know things. Things we know to be true should be held up as the truth. We wouldn’t want the mail service to spread a disinformation campaign advocating for putting exposed radioactive material in people’s homes. We know radiation is harmful to carbon based life.
Shouting fire in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire is not protected speech. Which is a specific rule about a specific kind of disinformation in a specific circumstance. But we have free speech. So free speech is not a 1 or a 0. Free speech rests on the foundation of the truth. If we know the truth about some topic that is critical to life, we should not allow spreading falsehoods about that topic. Gender affirming care should not be an exception to this principle.
I think we’ve found the crux of our 2x points of view:
Without a definition of a disinformation campaign it is difficult to set rules that can be enforced. Example: do religious leaflets count as disinformation as they aren’t based on scientific fact? If not then why is there an exemption for that case and not others?
I preface this with: I am not in the field but am biased to the views of the British NHS. The scientific sources you’ve listed, though through, are contradicted by other scientific sources (note, I’m not talking about “these are my facts” but actual institutional research).
Puberty blockers (gonadotrophin-releasing hormone analogues) are not available to children and young people for gender incongruence or gender dysphoria because there is not enough evidence of safety and clinical effectiveness.
So in summary there are 2x challenges I see:
Reputable scientific sources do not agree on this issue.
Applying a purely scientific principle will break existing norms and allowances. Principles agrees for this area and applied to other areas will cause an impact.
I’m keen to get your views on this as this is where my own thought processes usually get stuck.
Sorry for long text replies but this is helping with forming a more concrete view for myself :)
We should be interested in stopping disinformation in general, but we should do it on a case by case basis. Any banning of a disinformation campaign should be based on a body of empirical evidence. Which we have in the case of gender affirming care. There are numerous studies that have determined that these treatments are safe and effective.
The UK recently had a now debunked report, commonly referred to as the WPATH files. The WPATH files are not accepted by the general scientific community and the report has been retracted. Unfortunately this report was used to spearhead anti-trans policies in the UK. This is the kind of disinformation campaign we should not want in society.
Reputable scientific sources do agree on this issue.
do religious leaflets count as disinformation as they aren’t based on scientific fact? If not then why is there an exemption for that case and not others?
In the US, we have freedom of religion. Everyone is free to practice their religion in a way that does not harm others. We have separation of church and state. The state cannot be used to push any religion on anyone. The United States government cannot send religious leaflets to anyone. Individuals and groups can send whatever religious leaflets they want.
It is not the mail being sent that needs to be based on scientific fact. It is the restriction on the mail that needs to be based on scientific fact. There isn’t any harm in religious groups spreading their religion via the mail. There is harm in a targeted disinformation campaign attempting to ban gender affirming care.
A thorough scientific analysis is what should be the basis of any restriction on speech that is considered and deliberated by our democratic institutions. A body of empirical evidence is what should be used to upend existing norms and allowances. In the absence of a body of empirical evidence we should not restrict any speech.
Good points. I agree with the paradox of tolerance and your other points.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. This type of discussion is why in use social.media but it is rare to get past the partisan brigading.
Civil disobedience is an interesting point in this case. Personally, I probably would have acted as this Canadian woman did.
What I am struggling with is understanding what counts as a disinformation campaign. I read in your post that you’d answer this as a society and with research however, if you were put in charge of this research tomorrow, do you have a draft definition of a disinformation campaign?
I ask as I try to see the world in black and white and steer clear of the grey however, this is rarely possible.
Free speech being a good example. It’s either a 1 or 0.
We learn what is true through observation and math. We establish things that we know to be true with scientific studies. When we see a campaign spreading information we know to be false, that would be a disinformation campaign.
Here is a comment where I cite sources:
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/16679003/10778009
Here is a source from that comment that has a comprehensive overview of gender affirming care:
Here is argument from that comment supported by that source:
We aren’t going to be able to come up with a definition for all possible disinformation campaigns. We do not know everything. However such a definition is not needed to prevent specific disinformation campaigns. And it is possible to know things. Things we know to be true should be held up as the truth. We wouldn’t want the mail service to spread a disinformation campaign advocating for putting exposed radioactive material in people’s homes. We know radiation is harmful to carbon based life.
Shouting fire in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire is not protected speech. Which is a specific rule about a specific kind of disinformation in a specific circumstance. But we have free speech. So free speech is not a 1 or a 0. Free speech rests on the foundation of the truth. If we know the truth about some topic that is critical to life, we should not allow spreading falsehoods about that topic. Gender affirming care should not be an exception to this principle.
Thank you for this detailed reply.
I think we’ve found the crux of our 2x points of view:
Without a definition of a disinformation campaign it is difficult to set rules that can be enforced. Example: do religious leaflets count as disinformation as they aren’t based on scientific fact? If not then why is there an exemption for that case and not others?
I preface this with: I am not in the field but am biased to the views of the British NHS. The scientific sources you’ve listed, though through, are contradicted by other scientific sources (note, I’m not talking about “these are my facts” but actual institutional research).
Source: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/
Puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones
Puberty blockers (gonadotrophin-releasing hormone analogues) are not available to children and young people for gender incongruence or gender dysphoria because there is not enough evidence of safety and clinical effectiveness.
So in summary there are 2x challenges I see:
Reputable scientific sources do not agree on this issue.
Applying a purely scientific principle will break existing norms and allowances. Principles agrees for this area and applied to other areas will cause an impact.
I’m keen to get your views on this as this is where my own thought processes usually get stuck.
Sorry for long text replies but this is helping with forming a more concrete view for myself :)
We should be interested in stopping disinformation in general, but we should do it on a case by case basis. Any banning of a disinformation campaign should be based on a body of empirical evidence. Which we have in the case of gender affirming care. There are numerous studies that have determined that these treatments are safe and effective.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8496167/
The UK recently had a now debunked report, commonly referred to as the WPATH files. The WPATH files are not accepted by the general scientific community and the report has been retracted. Unfortunately this report was used to spearhead anti-trans policies in the UK. This is the kind of disinformation campaign we should not want in society.
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/fact-check-216-instances-of-factual
https://www.transgendermap.com/issues/academia/gender-critical/environmental-progress/wpath-files/
Reputable scientific sources do agree on this issue.
In the US, we have freedom of religion. Everyone is free to practice their religion in a way that does not harm others. We have separation of church and state. The state cannot be used to push any religion on anyone. The United States government cannot send religious leaflets to anyone. Individuals and groups can send whatever religious leaflets they want.
It is not the mail being sent that needs to be based on scientific fact. It is the restriction on the mail that needs to be based on scientific fact. There isn’t any harm in religious groups spreading their religion via the mail. There is harm in a targeted disinformation campaign attempting to ban gender affirming care.
A thorough scientific analysis is what should be the basis of any restriction on speech that is considered and deliberated by our democratic institutions. A body of empirical evidence is what should be used to upend existing norms and allowances. In the absence of a body of empirical evidence we should not restrict any speech.