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- cross-posted to:
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Loss of state-of-the-art vessel in May or June is setback to Chinese push for naval parity with US
China’s efforts to achieve maritime military parity with the US have suffered a serious blow after its newest state-of-the-art nuclear submarine sank in a dock, American officials have confirmed.
The incident happened last May or June at the Wuchang shipyard near Wuhan – the same city where the Covid-19 pandemic is believed to have originated – and came to light, thanks to satellite imagery, despite efforts by the country’s communist authorities to stage a cover-up.
A US defence official told Reuters that the Zhou-class vessel – first of a new kind of Chinese submarines and distinctive for its X-shaped stern that aids manoeuvrability – is believed to have been next to a pier when it sank.
It is not known if there were any casualties – or if the submarine had any nuclear fuel onboard at the time, although experts have deemed that likely, according to the Wall Street Journal, which initially broke the story. The submarine was eventually salvaged but it is believed that it will take many months before it can be put to sea.
Many countries have navies with subs that don’t sink at the dock, blow up, etc. If by “Navy” you meant russian or chinese (or Indian!) navy then I understand you. Otherwise you are extrapolating issues from countries with deep structural issues to your situation when it may not be the most productive way of thinking. This doesn’t mean I think you should have joined or not - just stating that what you feared may not apply to your country, depending on where you are from.
Whatever point you’re trying to make without saying it out loud is false:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submarine_and_submersible_incidents_since_2000
What I am trying to say out loud is that China, Russia and India are not competent with subs at this point in history. Russia is not competent with any sort of navy.
My yardstick is “how many subs have been irretrievably lost with or without all souls on board in peacetime”.
Russia is the only navy that has submarines that even compete with America’s so not sure what you’re talking about there. Russian submarine hulls are made out of titanium and can dive ~1000 feet deeper than the US’s. In a lot of cases, they have much better submarines than we do.
Part of the reason the cold war was so scary was because of the supremecy of their submarines. Didn’t you ever see The Hunt for Red October???
Also, America has lost 2 nuclear submarines to accidents, the thresher and the scorpion. The thresher was during trials after repair, and (along with the loss of the challenger space shuttle) gave rise to modern day Quality Assurance practices in engineering disciplines.
Oh are those the Germans they poached while we grabbed the rocket scientists?
Chinese subs have been around for decades. They played war games with my ship in the 90s
Welp, it’s amazing how many accidents were caused by either running aground or crashing into another vessel, in an era where sensors are so common.
I guess telling how close stuff is underwater is hard.
I never imagined so many incidents of this type. 😬
I’m saying that I’m claustrophobic, and being in a submarine is a nightmare scenario, regardless of how safe it is.
Also: while I don’t know the selection process for US Navy submarines, my experience with the military is that you can have an opinion about how you want to be posted, but no actual decision-making ability. So I may hope to fly Navy jets, but the Navy can simply say: “fuck you, you’re going to be stationed on a submarine,” and there’s little I could do about it.
Also: accidents happen, subs sink, regardless of the country. It’s pretty high on my list of ways not to die, just below Nutty Putty cave and getting sucked into Bolton Strid.
Also: submarines are weapons of war, so there’s a non-zero chance someone, at some point, will be trying to make you sink.
Also: I was saying that were I a Chinese submarine crew, an incident like this would not fill me with confidence about my posting.
You not wrong in general, though with submarines in particular, longstanding policy in the US Navy is that you don’t put people in them who aren’t willing to give it a try, specifically because of those close quarters and limited options in an emergency. I have heard stories of people having a hard time getting other postings once they’re qualified sub-mariners, but having a crew full of resentful balls of anxiety is not worth it to them.
I guess in return, they get a little more money, better food (at least until it runs out), a vague sense of exclusivity, and a more casual culture arising from the close quarters and the actual risk of death being a constant motivator to do your job well.
Something tells me the People’s Liberation Army Navy might take a bit of a firmer approach to postings, but I don’t know for sure.
I completely believe you. Still, at the time I was making the choice, I didn’t know this; I knew for sure that while I was in, my self-determination would be strictly limited, but I didn’t know details, and there was no. fucking. way. that I was going to risk being stationed on a sub.
I have a recollection about this being a thing: that there’s a certain caché among Navy folks about being sub crew. I once knew a retired nuclear sub captain, and while he was a day drinker, he was pretty proud of his service. He also fell asleep in meetings, but I guess he did his job well enough for this all to be overlooked. I visited his office once (in our office in another city), and one of his bottom desk drawers was full of just bottles of whiskey. I’ve never encountered anything like that, before or since. But I digress.