In light of the recent election, itās clear that the Democratic Party needs a significant leftward shift to better address the needs and concerns of the American people. The partyās centrist approach is increasingly out of touch, limiting its ability to appeal to a broader base and especially to young voters, who are looking for bold and transformative policies. The fact that young men became a substantial part of the conservative voting bloc should be a wake-up callāitās essential that the Democratic Party broadens its appeal by offering real solutions that resonate with this demographic.
Furthermore, one major missed opportunity was the decision to forgo primaries, which could have brought new energy and ideas to the ticket. Joe Bidenās choice to run for a second term, despite earlier implications of a one-term presidency, may have ultimately contributed to the loss by undermining trust in his promises. Had the party explored alternative candidates in a primary process, the outcome could have been vastly different. It is now imperative for the Working Families Party and the Progressive Caucus to push for a stronger, unapologetically progressive agenda within the Democratic Party. The time for centrist compromises has passed, as evidenced by setbacks dating back to Hillary Clintonās 2016 loss, the persistently low approval ratings for Biden since 2022, and Kamala Harrisās recent campaign, which left many progressives feeling alienated. To regain momentum and genuinely connect with the electorate, a clear departure from moderate politics is essential.
Thatās why I didnāt mention them. Agreed overall - the point is that having to campaign for a primary in 2024 would have exposed the faults along with putting āelectabilityā back into the picture. Exactly how this happens is less important than it does indeed happen.
I missed this. Conceded, youāre right.
Yeah, the WV loss was basically certain. Although higher hopes were had in Montana, obviously they didnāt pan out.
Yup, I remember this being an issue back in 2018 as well. Seeing that Senate terms are for six years, this makes sense. But that gives hope that 2026 will be more like 2020 with Dems barely retaking the Senate. Though that assumes there are still free and fair elections by then.
Agreed.
Youāll have to explain this. Based on the other speculative posted I referenced earlier, in terms of the popular vote it seems like Harris will have more than Clinton did in 2016 and only be short by a few million compared to Biden. If you look at EC numbers, Harris had more than Clinton, and the 2016 winner and the 2020 winner won by more than 300, while this year the number fell short of that.
Itās definitely a bad&painful result, but I wouldnāt call it the worst.
Ah, that makes sense.
The reason it was puzzling is because I had forgotten. Itās a personal bias (my inner circle of friends includes Latinos with very liberal families, but this obviously is due to a selection bias and doesnāt reflect the grouping in general).
I can give you a longer list if you like, of all the former Republican politicians who have gone on the record for supporting Harris. Itās not ridiculous at all. Itās fair to say it wasnāt enough, but itās more ridiculous to say it was just one person when we know the real number is at least more than an order of magnitude greater.
Weāre in agreement here.
I have nothing to back this up, but I had a feeling that once Harris was elected, actual action would eventually have been taken. She just couldnāt say anything but empty words prior to election day to avoid losing the Jewish bloc - but based on what we now know of the overall vote, it seems like that was a risk she should have taken.
I think the GOP would have had a field day with ābefore we were merely mitigating the damageā (why didnāt you just fix it? maybe because you donāt know how?)
Thatās exactly what Harris tried to do, as per https://www.npr.org/2024/08/09/nx-s1-5055895/harris-is-signaling-her-campaigns-priorities-the-economy-could-be-key-for-voters (fight price gouging, expand child tax credit, encourage more small businesses) and per https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardmcgahey/2024/09/30/harris-opportunity-economyācloses-the-economic-gap-with-trump/ (the opportunity economy).
Youād be right if you said trying to use this was a mistake, but - I feel she was trying to share in the credit for the good numbers on the economy as per https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/10/harris-inflation-solid-economy-00183210
Voters care more about their own personal finances. If things are more expensive for them, why do they care that the economyās numbers look good? Another thing I think a primary would have prevented.
I think at the time the thinking was being too distant from B would cause two problems. First, why didnāt she do anything more as VP? Second, not able to take any credit for the few good things.
No, the number did not fall short of that, itās just that Arizona and Nevada have not been called for Trump yet, but they will be soon. At that point, the electoral map will look exactly the same as 2016 except that Clinton won Nevada, which Kamala is losing. And Clinton won the popular vote while Kamala lost it. So yes, it is pretty objectively a worse result than 2016.
The only thing I was wrong about was that it wasnāt just 20 years. We actually have to go all the way back to 1988 to see a result this bad for the democrats, an election where George H.W. Bush won California.
An order of magnitude greater than 1 is 10. Thatās still completely insignificant, obviously. Individual politicians donāt matter unless they draw in constituencies (and donāt alienate other constituencies), which did not materialize.
This is essentially a conspiracy theory. Itās no different from QAnon people explaining away anything Trump does that they donāt like by saying that he had to say it to appease the deep state and get elected, TRUST THE PLAN. Itās completely baseless cope and every piece of actual evidence clearly contradicts it.
But even if it were true it doesnāt matter in the context of assessing why she lost, because there was no possible way for voters alienated by her public stance to know that she was lying and secretly on their side.
No no no. You cut off major parts of what I said. The only similarity is, āWeāre going to make the economy better going forwardā which every politician ever is going to say.
You do acknowledge the main point afterward though. I think weāre in agreement on it being a mistake for her to not distance herself from Biden and not sufficiently acknowledge peopleās economic problems.
Yep. I think thereās still a tiny disagreement here over whether or not Harris could have put enough distance - but we both agree that a primary would have proven it either way and solved the problem with a different candidate if it wasnāt possible, so thatās perhaps immaterial.
Both Harris and I provided more specific details than that.
Space limits on posting. But actually I agreed on those points and didnāt feel the need to respond to them - Harris never said the economy was really and painfully bad outright and never sought distance from Biden.
Agreed, the latest numbers do suggest that if there was split voting, it was in favor of the Dems downballot and orange voldemort rather than the opposite, like we saw in 2020 for Biden.
I was just pointing out that this did draw in some, but as you said it wasnāt enough.
Oh, thatās right. I spoke too soon - should have waited for the data.
But from your own wikipedia pages, Clinton wont 65,853,514 votes while the estimate at https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/18340229 says āKamala around 73 millionā so Harris objectively did better than Clinton on the popular vote in terms of raw numbers.
So worst case 2024 will still be better than 1988 in terms of EC numbers. Anyways, if Iām reading https://www.politico.com/2024-election/results/president/ itās still too soon to call - the reason being that itās mathematically possible for Harris to still win those two (if she won all the remaining votes left to be counted). So still too soon to tell.
So let me give some quotes here to back this up.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/4/harris-says-will-end-gaza-war-in-final-election-appeal-to-arab-americans
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/kamala-harris-says-two-state-solution-is-the-only-path-after-meeting-with-netanyahu-b2586161.html
Harris didnāt have much in terms of actual action, but her position post-Hamas was still for a two-state solution and to put an end to what was happening in Gaza.
The problem is there was no plan for that - but she only had three months to rush a campaign through. So less āTRUST THE PLANā and more āhope she can figure out a plan once sheās in office.ā
Itās not a conspiracy theory because she did actually say these things, but if youād question if these would end up as broken promises ā¦ it seems that the voters who cared about these things shared your questioning.
Again, it wasnāt secret, but was based on the speeches she gave, along with this bit of protestor inspired impromptu: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/harris-appears-to-agree-with-protester-accusing-israel-of-genocide-what-he-s-talking-about-it-s-real/ar-AA1szCVt
Obviously it wasnāt enough, but, it wasnāt kept as a secret.
Yes, Clinton got fewer total votes in a lower turnout election, but by every other metric the election was less bad than this one was for Harris, whether we look at the EC or votes compared to the other side.
As for Gaza, there is one very simple and straightforward action that Biden could have taken (or still could actually) or that Harris could have said sheāll do: place conditions on arms shipments to Israel (or even just stop them entirely). Refusing to do that is a complete endorsement of Israelās actions. Like I said, itās like saying that you disapprove of a mass shooterās actions while handing him another clip. Words and speeches are completely meaningless unless that is addressed, all she ever said was essentially, āWouldnāt it be nice if they could resolve their differences without fighting? But of course I fully support Israelās right to defend itself and will keep arming them unconditionally.ā There is no indication that she wouldāve been at all willing to take meaningful action.
It used to be the case that politicians would promise to do good things, and then maybe sometimes theyād actually keep their promises. Nowadays they donāt even promise anything and people just convince themselves theyāll do what they want regardless. Like, even if she had said that sheād stop shipments, sure I would support her, but it would not be entirely unreasonable to question whether sheād follow through. But in the case where she couldnāt even say it, the chances of her doing it are basically zero.
No need to rehash what I said above, beyond that Iām still waiting for the data.
Agreed. Now, my understanding is that Harris as VP canāt actually do this, that authority runs from Biden down to his cabinet secretaries. But she could have made that promise. Itās still not taking action, but maybe it would have been enough.
So minor disagreement here. You say complete, or 100%, while Iād say like 95% or 97%. Perhaps an immaterial difference.
But your proposal above, for Harris, is just more mere words: āHarris could have saidā
I think calling for a cease-fire is a mite bit stronger than that, but again perhaps the difference between us is so small as to be immaterial.
Agreed, definitely a problem. No need to rehash about the Jewish voting bloc stuff - we understand why this was done and we saw first hand that it didnāt work out. So with 20/20 hindsightā¦
After Oct 7, 2024, I would too. To say otherwise is an insult to the families of the hostages - telling them that they arenāt important enough to protect, that itās okay for this to happen to them again.
On here we completely disagree. āI will stop the Gaza war by any means necessary.ā seems like a pretty big indication.
Meanwhile,
Source: https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-trump-cease-fire (link to quote in the āfree reinā link on that page)
To be fair, the above is also a really big indication.
Thatās why I used the word, āunless.ā If the words are addressing that point, then theyāre meaningful, but as long as they arenāt, they are not.
Does it now? There are lots of ways to stop a war, for example, by destroying the other sideās willingness or capability to keep fighting. You know, like Trump said, āfinish the job,ā and then there wonāt be any more fighting because one side would all be dead. Youāre choosing to interpret it to mean what you want it to mean, and a supporter of Israel would interpret it to mean what they want it to mean, typical equivocation with no indication of what it actually means in practical terms.
What you donāt understand is that politicians are most responsive to voters in the lead-up to an election. After they get elected, then theyāve already gotten the votes they needed, so they can focus more on lobbyists and corporate donors. Thatās why there is zero chance that she wouldāve become more pro-Palestinian when in office, because the voters are far more favorable to Palestine than the donors and lobbyists are.
Ah I think I got your meaning now.
Yes.
I assume this is just an example and you arenāt seriously suggesting this is what Harris means. Harris has been very clear on the need for an immediate ceasefire.
Well, the alternative meaning doesnāt fit with what Harris has said about getting to an immediate ceasefire - you canāt have a ceasefire if youāre trying to kill every last person on the enemy side. That contradiction makes me think Iāve interpreted it correctly.
I got that. I figured this was an important constraint on Harris being able to speak in support on Gaza in fact - AIPAC withdrawing their support of her.
This is a good point, AIPAC would still be around after the election.
I think zero chance is too extreme. Consider this,
Source: https://www.politico.com/story/2012/05/obama-expected-to-speak-on-gay-marriage-076103
Also, the goal wasnāt necessarily to make Harris pro-Palestine, but simply more anti-genocide. As the situation in Gaza worsens, I could see a possibility where from the grassroots a movement of change, going thru e.g. Sanders and AOC, would eventually convince Harris to evolve her position here as well.
Now, as you point out there are powerful forces that would resist that, but the outcome of that battle would not have been a foregone conclusion.
Quick question, how do you feel about Trump talking about immediately ending the war in Ukraine?
Optimistic. As per https://sopuli.xyz/post/18928087 it seems that āZelensky was somewhat reassuredā
Previously I had thought that this guy would just withdraw all support and hand free reign to Russia, but Zelensky is no fool. If heās feeling it, then Iām very happy indeed to be proven wrong about this point.
Another silver lining - if the US withdraws from NATO, then at least, they canāt block Ukraine from joiningā¦