I don’t see how you could say that any capitalism is favourable to another brand of capitalism. Well, except for perhaps saying that Western capitalism is definitely favourable to capitalism with Asian values, which is essentially capitalism deprived of individual freedom and monopolised by the state, ie authoritarian capitalism taking advantage of Western markets
I don’t view one type of capitalism as more favorable than another, but I do recognize the particular dominance and imperialistic qualities of western capitalism. In fact, I see the the current global conflicts in a similar lens to Zizek when he says:
[the existing western democratic capitalist] “system has lost its self-evidence, its automatic legitimacy, and now the field is open.”
The legitimacy of western democratic capitalism is (rightfully) losing credibility, and I even think it’s currently collapsing. I don’t share Zizek’s skepticism of… “Chinese-Singaporean capitalism with Asian values”. He has had some questionable takes on racial/national identities in the past - it’s been a while since I trusted his geopolitical cultural analysis. At the very least I think the ‘Socialism/Capitalism with Chinese characteristics’ has yet to play itself out, whereas there’s about a dozen examples of western imperialist intervention ending in absolute squalor for the working class wherever they’ve been active.
The point is that from a purely ML perspective, there’s nothing to be gained by dragging that conflict out. The working class will be in no better material conditions under either outcome, even if we freely acknowledge their occupation and annexation is both immoral and illegal. So long as western democratic capitalism retains its global significance, there can’t be socialism without a vanguard party to defend against western capitalistic subversion, at least not one that lasts.
There is a lot of war beside class war. Mainly, people doing actual war in places with war. Like Ukraine.
“No war but class war” isn’t a statement about the existence of war other than class war lol.
“system has lost its self-evidence, its automatic legitimacy, and now the field is open.”
I don’t disagree with this. And it’s actually nice to get into nuance with someone. The point is that I have a genuine reason to worry about Russia and Russian propaganda — basically everyone has but if they make more of move on Europe, Imma be 30km from the frontlines, and with the current drone technology, I don’t like my chances in what I’m doing, which is not something I’m gonna reveal here just in case there actually is a war. (My war time posting, that is.)
The legitimacy of western democratic capitalism is (rightfully) losing credibility
Sure, yeah, but you do realise what you sound like when you make statements like that? I’ll gladly discuss how fucked up Western politics are when I know I’m not talking to someone straight up worshipping Russia.
For one, I’ve already explained how I will defend Finland and Europe if it comes down to it, but how people just overhype Finland. “Happiest country in the world”? What fucking garbage. One of the most miserable countries in the world, when it comes to general enjoyment of life. Perhaps one of the safest countries in the world, sure, where you’ll usually have your basic needs met and won’t have to resort to violence or crime, but… “happiest”? Not even fucking close.
It’s not about racial or etchnic takes when Zizek talks about ‘capitalism with Asian values’. Essentially he’s remarking that a lot of Asian countries are pretty authoritarian, but know that they need to rely on making bank, which is why they successffully employ capitalism, but impose some authoritarian features on the people owning the companies doing the trade. Not exactly monopolising trade, which would mean no capitalism, but basically… monopolising the people doing capitalism… so… it’s not gonna “play itself out”. How would China starve itself of people and business, while being so resource rich? Even with super heavy regulation and authoritarianism, they could go all the way down to NK level and still have… a population. So you know… you won’t be seeing “the end of” anything like that…
“No war but class war” isn’t a statement about the existence of war other than class war lol.
Yes but you can also see how quotes can be interpreted in several ways, yes? And the importance of actual war goes above class war, no matter how I’d like to kick up a revolution and start building barricades.
It’s hectic. We can’t use hectic. I want to rage and break things and yell at morons. But unfortunately that’s just never worked and annoying as it is, we have to compromise with morons.
The point is that I have a genuine reason to worry about Russia and Russian propaganda — basically everyone has but if they make more of move on Europe, Imma be 30km from the frontlines, and with the current drone technology, I don’t like my chances in what I’m doing
I’m sorry you’re in that situation, genuinely. I don’t want to be one of those guys that confidently speculates about the future of geopolitical conflict, but Russia benefits a lot more from reactionary isolationists getting voted in throughout the western world and weakening resolve for joint sanction than they do with open conflict with Europe. They wouldn’t be able to march into Finland or Poland without NATO taking action, and they certainly do not want to get into open conflict with NATO - that’s half the reason they’re in Ukraine to begin with.
Sure, yeah, but you do realise what you sound like when you make statements like that? I’ll gladly discuss how fucked up Western politics are when I know I’m not talking to someone straight up worshipping Russia.
And i’d gladly discuss it when I know i’m talking to someone who understands that it isn’t just western ‘politics’, it is a matter of the internal contradictions within democratic capitalism itself. It’s not a matter of western nations ‘deciding’ not to be jackasses, they need to materially separate themselves from the needs of capital itself, and we’ll sooner sink to fascism than achieve that spontaneously.
Essentially he’s remarking that a lot of Asian countries are pretty authoritarian, but know that they need to rely on making bank, which is why they successffully employ capitalism, but impose some authoritarian features on the people owning the companies doing the trade. Not exactly monopolising trade, which would mean no capitalism, but basically… monopolising the people doing capitalism… so… it’s not gonna “play itself out”. How would China starve itself of people and business, while being so resource rich? Even with super heavy regulation and authoritarianism, they could go all the way down to NK level and still have… a population. So you know… you won’t be seeing “the end of” anything like that…
Err, yea… That is basically the only reason they’ve been as successful as a communist nation to begin with. I understand people’s apprehension to include China as a communist or socialist nation state given the idealistic non-violent vision that’s romanticized in the west, but the way in which they’ve enacted their “socialism with Chinese characteristics” is still consistent with a marxist vision of a ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’. I guess we’ll see if/how that system would be implemented in a hypothetical communist/socialist western world, but so far their system has been significantly less violent than even the most charitable characterizations of western democratic capitalism. That’s why I don’t share Zizek’s fear of Chinese authoritarianism taking over in the west - not just because I think the west has greatly exaggerated it to great effect, but also they’ve been downright benevolent with their partner states in comparison to western democratic capitalist states. I think it’s naive to think a western implementation would be the same (but holy shit is that an insane hypothetical given where we currently are)
And the importance of actual war goes above class war, no matter how I’d like to kick up a revolution and start building barricades.
Funnily enough, that is the opposite of what that phrase means - but I can see we’re about to reach the limit on what we agree on so I’ll leave it at that.
I don’t view one type of capitalism as more favorable than another, but I do recognize the particular dominance and imperialistic qualities of western capitalism. In fact, I see the the current global conflicts in a similar lens to Zizek when he says:
The legitimacy of western democratic capitalism is (rightfully) losing credibility, and I even think it’s currently collapsing. I don’t share Zizek’s skepticism of… “Chinese-Singaporean capitalism with Asian values”. He has had some questionable takes on racial/national identities in the past - it’s been a while since I trusted his geopolitical cultural analysis. At the very least I think the ‘Socialism/Capitalism with Chinese characteristics’ has yet to play itself out, whereas there’s about a dozen examples of western imperialist intervention ending in absolute squalor for the working class wherever they’ve been active.
The point is that from a purely ML perspective, there’s nothing to be gained by dragging that conflict out. The working class will be in no better material conditions under either outcome, even if we freely acknowledge their occupation and annexation is both immoral and illegal. So long as western democratic capitalism retains its global significance, there can’t be socialism without a vanguard party to defend against western capitalistic subversion, at least not one that lasts.
“No war but class war” isn’t a statement about the existence of war other than class war lol.
I don’t disagree with this. And it’s actually nice to get into nuance with someone. The point is that I have a genuine reason to worry about Russia and Russian propaganda — basically everyone has but if they make more of move on Europe, Imma be 30km from the frontlines, and with the current drone technology, I don’t like my chances in what I’m doing, which is not something I’m gonna reveal here just in case there actually is a war. (My war time posting, that is.)
Sure, yeah, but you do realise what you sound like when you make statements like that? I’ll gladly discuss how fucked up Western politics are when I know I’m not talking to someone straight up worshipping Russia.
For one, I’ve already explained how I will defend Finland and Europe if it comes down to it, but how people just overhype Finland. “Happiest country in the world”? What fucking garbage. One of the most miserable countries in the world, when it comes to general enjoyment of life. Perhaps one of the safest countries in the world, sure, where you’ll usually have your basic needs met and won’t have to resort to violence or crime, but… “happiest”? Not even fucking close.
It’s not about racial or etchnic takes when Zizek talks about ‘capitalism with Asian values’. Essentially he’s remarking that a lot of Asian countries are pretty authoritarian, but know that they need to rely on making bank, which is why they successffully employ capitalism, but impose some authoritarian features on the people owning the companies doing the trade. Not exactly monopolising trade, which would mean no capitalism, but basically… monopolising the people doing capitalism… so… it’s not gonna “play itself out”. How would China starve itself of people and business, while being so resource rich? Even with super heavy regulation and authoritarianism, they could go all the way down to NK level and still have… a population. So you know… you won’t be seeing “the end of” anything like that…
Yes but you can also see how quotes can be interpreted in several ways, yes? And the importance of actual war goes above class war, no matter how I’d like to kick up a revolution and start building barricades.
It’s hectic. We can’t use hectic. I want to rage and break things and yell at morons. But unfortunately that’s just never worked and annoying as it is, we have to compromise with morons.
I’m sorry you’re in that situation, genuinely. I don’t want to be one of those guys that confidently speculates about the future of geopolitical conflict, but Russia benefits a lot more from reactionary isolationists getting voted in throughout the western world and weakening resolve for joint sanction than they do with open conflict with Europe. They wouldn’t be able to march into Finland or Poland without NATO taking action, and they certainly do not want to get into open conflict with NATO - that’s half the reason they’re in Ukraine to begin with.
And i’d gladly discuss it when I know i’m talking to someone who understands that it isn’t just western ‘politics’, it is a matter of the internal contradictions within democratic capitalism itself. It’s not a matter of western nations ‘deciding’ not to be jackasses, they need to materially separate themselves from the needs of capital itself, and we’ll sooner sink to fascism than achieve that spontaneously.
Err, yea… That is basically the only reason they’ve been as successful as a communist nation to begin with. I understand people’s apprehension to include China as a communist or socialist nation state given the idealistic non-violent vision that’s romanticized in the west, but the way in which they’ve enacted their “socialism with Chinese characteristics” is still consistent with a marxist vision of a ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’. I guess we’ll see if/how that system would be implemented in a hypothetical communist/socialist western world, but so far their system has been significantly less violent than even the most charitable characterizations of western democratic capitalism. That’s why I don’t share Zizek’s fear of Chinese authoritarianism taking over in the west - not just because I think the west has greatly exaggerated it to great effect, but also they’ve been downright benevolent with their partner states in comparison to western democratic capitalist states. I think it’s naive to think a western implementation would be the same (but holy shit is that an insane hypothetical given where we currently are)
Funnily enough, that is the opposite of what that phrase means - but I can see we’re about to reach the limit on what we agree on so I’ll leave it at that.