I’m guessing you don’t come from a region that has been historically Abrahamic. I’m secular myself but it’s interesting that you would throw Satan in there with the rest.
I do, and I’m not sure why what I said would make you think otherwise. The way Satan is popularly depicted today makes him indistinguishable from the “evil gods” of other religions.
Well, the way Satan is depicted in pop culture has little to do with actual christianity, and I am not sure why you felt the need to include him, despite the fact he is a very minor character in christianity, and also even in the popular depiction he is not nearly on the same level, as he was created by God, is not omnipotent, omniscient, unlike God, etc.
One of which that I’m aware is: the devil was deliberately created with the knowledge of its future rebellion to test the faith of people. Another is to wait for them to repent. I don’t follow any more, but deeper into catholicism there’s a surprising amount of theory. For a religion with an organized structure, it’s not very organized.
In the text, definitely. In the practiced religion (especially in America), not so much. And even in the text he has a much larger role than in its predecessor Judaism.
I think the pop culture versions of religions have become so deeply ingrained that they became a part of many adherent’s actual beliefs. For example, ask the average Catholic to describe hell and see how long it takes for something from Paradise Lost to pop up.
even in the popular depiction he is not nearly on the same level, as he was created by God, is not omnipotent, omniscient, unlike God, etc.
Why would that disqualify him as god-like? Polytheistic religions had gods of varying strengths, many created by other gods - the Greek pantheon is a tangle of lesser gods created by greater ones, and even Zeus came from Chronos, a Titan (which is somehow different from a god).
The whole assigning of godhood seems completely arbitrary to me. Archangels are more powerful than many full-on gods from other mythologies yet somehow don’t count, whereas even humans could have been (or will become) gods in other lives in religions such as Jainism or Mormonism.
Ok, I will concede to you that pop culture should be considered, however I would not say angels are gods.
The christian God is the supreme power, he is the monarch of the universe, so to speak, everything is under his authority. An angel is not a god, because he is a creature, not the creator, he is subordinate. He is not all-powerful, he is a servant. Within the logic of christianity there is absolute difference between god and everything else.
In greek paganism Zeus was the king of the gods. However, he was not allpowerful(there were some henoteistic tendencies, however), other gods were still powerful in their own right, and there were gods he was afraid of(in a famous passage from the Iliad that I do not quite remember, it is mentioned that he was afraid of Nyx). There was a revolution when Kronos was overthrown, as you mentioned. So those two religions are quite different.
In Jainism, the so called “gods” are a different thing altogether, no need to mention it.
I do not know much about mormons, aren’t they christians? I thought they were.
My point is that what constitutes a god differs between religions, and the Christian claim of monotheism uses a very narrow definition of god that excludes the many supernatural beings described in their religious texts.
If you use the standards of other religions, one could easily argue it’s a polytheistic religion - the Trinity, or one divinity appearing in multiple forms, is similar to other religions generally considered polytheistic.
It’s an endless debate because both sides talk past each other due to disagreeing on the basic definition of the term.
I do not know much about mormons, aren’t they christians? I thought they were.
That’s a matter of debate I’m not at all qualified to get into. They have some very [out there](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_(Mormonism\)) beliefs that they understandably don’t advertise to outsiders, and that only became common knowledge with the advent of the internet.
Yes, gods are different in different religions, but why would you, to determine whether something is a god in christianity use pagan standards?
My point is, that within the logic of christianity you can not say there is more than one god, it is unreasonable to say that christianity is polytheistic.
Also, “one divinity appearing in multiple forms” is not a polytheistic thing, since you only have one divinity. The trinity does not consist of three gods, but of three hypostases of the same god. My point is that it can only seem like those are three gods, but if you have more deep knowledge of christianity you will never say that.
I’m guessing you don’t come from a region that has been historically Abrahamic. I’m secular myself but it’s interesting that you would throw Satan in there with the rest.
I do, and I’m not sure why what I said would make you think otherwise. The way Satan is popularly depicted today makes him indistinguishable from the “evil gods” of other religions.
Well, the way Satan is depicted in pop culture has little to do with actual christianity, and I am not sure why you felt the need to include him, despite the fact he is a very minor character in christianity, and also even in the popular depiction he is not nearly on the same level, as he was created by God, is not omnipotent, omniscient, unlike God, etc.
Listen to Evangelicals rant about Satan. They won’t say he’s on the same level,. but they act like he is.
Evangelicals are decidedly not Catholic
Yes, notice I said not just Catholics. This meme is referring to the saints.
If Satan is less powerful, that means god can stop evil but chooses not to?
Oh boy… I think there have been entire books written about this argument like , 100’s of years ago?
Satan doesn’t do evil. He merely tricks people into doing evil. Kind of like a criminal lawyer than an evil god.
Isn’t manipulating and coercing people to do evil things also evil?
Either that or:-
is not as powerful as advertised
has a different definition of evil
doesn’t exist
Maybe some other possibilities.
One of which that I’m aware is: the devil was deliberately created with the knowledge of its future rebellion to test the faith of people. Another is to wait for them to repent. I don’t follow any more, but deeper into catholicism there’s a surprising amount of theory. For a religion with an organized structure, it’s not very organized.
Google “theodicy”.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/theodicies/
I’ll give that a read later and reply after
In the text, definitely. In the practiced religion (especially in America), not so much. And even in the text he has a much larger role than in its predecessor Judaism.
I think the pop culture versions of religions have become so deeply ingrained that they became a part of many adherent’s actual beliefs. For example, ask the average Catholic to describe hell and see how long it takes for something from Paradise Lost to pop up.
Why would that disqualify him as god-like? Polytheistic religions had gods of varying strengths, many created by other gods - the Greek pantheon is a tangle of lesser gods created by greater ones, and even Zeus came from Chronos, a Titan (which is somehow different from a god).
The whole assigning of godhood seems completely arbitrary to me. Archangels are more powerful than many full-on gods from other mythologies yet somehow don’t count, whereas even humans could have been (or will become) gods in other lives in religions such as Jainism or Mormonism.
Ok, I will concede to you that pop culture should be considered, however I would not say angels are gods.
The christian God is the supreme power, he is the monarch of the universe, so to speak, everything is under his authority. An angel is not a god, because he is a creature, not the creator, he is subordinate. He is not all-powerful, he is a servant. Within the logic of christianity there is absolute difference between god and everything else.
In greek paganism Zeus was the king of the gods. However, he was not allpowerful(there were some henoteistic tendencies, however), other gods were still powerful in their own right, and there were gods he was afraid of(in a famous passage from the Iliad that I do not quite remember, it is mentioned that he was afraid of Nyx). There was a revolution when Kronos was overthrown, as you mentioned. So those two religions are quite different.
In Jainism, the so called “gods” are a different thing altogether, no need to mention it.
I do not know much about mormons, aren’t they christians? I thought they were.
My point is that what constitutes a god differs between religions, and the Christian claim of monotheism uses a very narrow definition of god that excludes the many supernatural beings described in their religious texts.
If you use the standards of other religions, one could easily argue it’s a polytheistic religion - the Trinity, or one divinity appearing in multiple forms, is similar to other religions generally considered polytheistic.
It’s an endless debate because both sides talk past each other due to disagreeing on the basic definition of the term.
That’s a matter of debate I’m not at all qualified to get into. They have some very [out there](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_(Mormonism\)) beliefs that they understandably don’t advertise to outsiders, and that only became common knowledge with the advent of the internet.
Yes, gods are different in different religions, but why would you, to determine whether something is a god in christianity use pagan standards?
My point is, that within the logic of christianity you can not say there is more than one god, it is unreasonable to say that christianity is polytheistic.
Also, “one divinity appearing in multiple forms” is not a polytheistic thing, since you only have one divinity. The trinity does not consist of three gods, but of three hypostases of the same god. My point is that it can only seem like those are three gods, but if you have more deep knowledge of christianity you will never say that.
Back when I still went to (Catholic) Church I don’t remember ever hearing about Satan/the devil/Lucifer/whatever
Catholics don’t tend to obsess over him like Evengelicals, that’s for sure.
True if all of your knowledge of religion comes from pop culture I can see how someone might see it that way.
Like in Family Guy or other Seth Rogan shows Satan, Jesus and “God” are all depicted as equals bickering.
Thanks for your thoughts here. They’re interesting.
Yes yes, it’s actually a fallen angel, servant of god. Same animal, different cloth.
No pop culture needed, just listen to Evangelicals. To hear them tell it, Satan is this huge powerful force that meddles in human affairs constantly.
That just sounds like evangelicals.
Yes, and guess which type of Christianity is in power in the US now?
Oh is it the one full of hypocrites?
But yes.
Older versions of the Bible contain references to “Hades” which was changed to “hell” in the King James Version.
American Christianity has very little to do with the Bible.
I mean Americans do a lot of dumb stuff. And I don’t think we need to make every thread American centric.
American christianity is basically zoroastrianism