• melpomenesclevage@lemm.eeBannedEnglish
    5·
    1 year ago

    A lot of us have been victims of the church(hi); its leaves a bloody trench in its wake.

    or tried our hand at activism and been smacked down by religious groups for doing the shit they espouse on paper (not strongly me, in any way I care about) and are understandably bitter.

    And it hits harder, because most people grew up hearing these are the paragons of moral virtue, and then then pull this shit.

    Plus they won’t shut up and get a ton of special treatment, but almost never use it for good (notice nobody’s talking shit about Harriet Tubman, john brown, or the quakers. Diggers levellers anabaptists, too, not even the ULC or church of Satan).

    They paint their own target.

    • rwhitisissle@lemmy.worldEnglish
      2·
      1 year ago

      Sure, and that’s terrible, but from a different perspective, most of these beliefs and behaviors you’ve identified would persist without religious institutions and their proponents formalizing them as policy. Religion can give people a way to justify a lot of the terrible beliefs that they had internalized anyway, because it’s part of the dominant culture. But misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, xenophobia, and moral hypocrisy aren’t caused by religion or religious beliefs, any more so than atheism or agnosticism causes people to be tolerant or accepting of others in spite of their differences. And that’s a foundational premise to many of the criticisms of religion I see on Lemmy. But it’s just objectively wrong. If you want to look at a historical example of the productive power of religion, look no further than the SCLC (Southern Christian Leadership Conference), which was one of, if not the most significant, political and religious organizations of the Civil Rights movement. It helped to organize people into a fighting force for real progressive change and it did so by way of lines of communication between black congregations across the country. For even more examples of religion as a tool of social progress, I recommend the wikipedia page on Liberation Theology.

        • rwhitisissle@lemmy.worldEnglish
          2·
          1 year ago

          I already mentioned that shoehorning criticism of religion into conversations that were unrelated came across as bitter and myopic. Your point was, essentially, that a lot of people are bitter towards Christianity, which is implied by my own observation. If you have nothing to add beyond restating what was already said by the person to whom you are replying, then I would suggest saving yourself the time in the future and just clicking the up arrow. Or doing literally nothing. Either of those are fine options.

          • melpomenesclevage@lemm.eeBannedEnglish
            2·
            1 year ago

            I was commenting after thatthat had been done. Youre arguing with the wrong person, regardless of how I feel about your points. I’m going to be the bigger person and leave now

            Then come back, after a cup of tea, and write this part.

            You can be all manner of shitty without religion, but religion as a framework is generally (and they’re not all the same) a tool for getting people to accept and do awful shit-partially, I admit, a (violent) selection pressure, but when you believe blatantly magical bullshit, you’re more easily manipulated against your stated conscience and general interest, and the people willing to do that tend to be the biggest bastards. Its also a mostly static model of reality youre very emotionally attached to, with no or problematic adjustment mechanisms, and those are always dangerous, even when they’re as or more accurate than other options (which none of the big ones are).

            Religion doesn’t determine good/bad, but it’s got its finger on the needle. That’s not to say it hasn’t produced things I respect; Spinoza, Hegel, guy whose name I can never remember how to spell who wrote ‘pedagogy of the oppressed’, but I’m not sure how much any of those are attributable to it, and a lot (most? One is too many) of those holy wars (including the worst ongoing genocide I’m aware of at time if writing) serve(d) little/no material interest, of anyone.

            So I’m only saying this because you basically walked up and asked me. But also I’m queer and it makes me feel very unsafe. Its a kind of volatility, if someone is, say, any of the abrahamic faiths, that they can just… Turn, almost instantly, for reasons I can’t argue or persuade or accommodate, for no real reason, against my very existence. Ive lost a lot of people to that. And it fucking sucks. No nonreligious person did this to me until ~2016. It took fascism, which I would argue is a (particularly bad) religion.

            • rwhitisissle@lemmy.worldEnglish
              2·
              1 year ago

              So your assertions here are the following:

              • religion functions by 1) lying to people about the fundamental nature of reality in order to 2) manipulate them into doing bad things and that central to this is the idea that doing point 1 actively enables or facilitates point 2.
              • religion constitutes a “static model of reality” to which people are emotionally attached, which is fundamentally dangerous.
              • religion does not “determine” good or bad.
              • Religious violence is a thing that exists.
              • You’re queer and religion bothers you.

              So, point by point:

              • many religions make complex assertions about the metaphysical nature of the universe, often including the existence of supernatural phenomena, individuals, locations, etc. I’m not going to try to argue for the existence of any mystical element of any particular faith, but I will challenge the innately reductive analysis of religion you’ve provided. Most religions, particularly the very old ones, incorporate historical, philosophical, artistic, communal, and ethical traditions. You seem to center your understanding of religious faith around the metaphysical or supernatural components and have asserted that these components warp the underlying perception of reality of its participants for the express purpose of making people behave in such a way as to “do awful shit” and act against your “conscience and general interest.” In making a causal assertion of this kind, however, you really need to be able to support that assertion with something that proves a causal link between what you describe as a belief in “blatantly magical bullshit” and a specific pattern of behavior. Why is it the belief in the supernatural and not, for example, hierarchical organizations of power, something that has existed as a component of organized religion for millennia, but also in virtually all political and dominant social institutions for just as long? Perhaps people are more inclined towards mob mentality or to fall behind powerful and charismatic leaders, regardless of the institution from which they’re working. For example, the Soviet Union under Stalin was a brutally repressive society that actively criminalized both organized religion and LGBT persons. The absence of religion did not magically produce a society devoid of people unwilling to brutally oppress their fellow countrymen.
              • you seem to be working with terms that don’t really carry a lot of significance or meaning for anyone other than yourself. What, exactly, do you think constitutes a “static model of reality?” And what, exactly, is problematic about that? Because in my mind, most people operate with a fairly static understanding of reality. Not to say it’s the same understanding of reality. Ideologies are as complex and different as the people that internalize them, and they inform our personal understanding of the world we inhabit. For most people, altering these beliefs about the world is non-trivial. As a staunch leftist, someone would have a hard time selling me on the merits of laissez-faire capitalism as an effective mechanism of distributing wealth in a society. My understanding of the fundamental nature of economics, human nature, and reality itself precludes this. Am I working from an overly static and inflexible model of reality?
              • religion is deeply concerned with the nature of good and evil. Admittedly, these are things you might not actually believe in. Perhaps you’re a moral relativist. Perhaps not. If you are, I don’t have much to say to you about this. You believe good and evil are culturally determined moral concepts and nothing else, from a personal perspective, beyond socially conditioned behavior.
              • religious violence, or “Holy Wars” as you’ve put it, are virtually all fought for the same purpose as any other war: the primitive acquisition of wealth and the expansion of a nation or nations hegemony. If you think what’s going on in Palestine is not driven by Israel’s desire for Palestinian land, then I have a bridge to sell you.
              • your experiences are both tragic and common. I’ve personally been physically and emotionally abused by members of specific religious organizations, for reasons and in ways I don’t feel comfortable sharing with strangers on the internet, and by people who were sociopaths that used religion as a cudgel to bully and control others. But I’ve also been comforted and treated kindly by other people for whom their religious faith was an important part of their lives - people who were sick and in pain their entire lives, but who found serenity and comfort through their beliefs and shared that with people around them who were also suffering. History is full of people who used religion as an excuse to do terrible things, but history also has a tendency to amplify monsters and forget the decent people whose faith may have driven them to have a more positive impact on the world.

              If you want to hate religion because you’re bitter, that’s fine. You can feel about religion any way that you want. But don’t be offended when you bring it up out of nowhere and someone tells you that your comments are irrelevant to the current discussion.

              The world doesn’t revolve around your personal bitterness.

              • melpomenesclevage@lemm.eeBannedEnglish
                1·
                1 year ago

                You’re saying I’m saying ‘religion is x’

                I’m generally saying ‘religion tends towards x’ so two twins, one raised religious, one not, you could end up with anything.

                A hundred sets of twins, one in each set religious, the other not influenced by it at all; the religious ones, on average, are gonna suck more, but only on average.

                I do think the concept that ‘the world doesn’t matter because its temporary and only heaven matters, therefore anything is permissible’ is terrifying, and should get you kept away from sharp objects heavy machinery and any position of authority over anything. There are a few specific points doctrine about beliefs like that, that only show up without religion in cases of extreme mental illness, and I think can skew the average of how shit people are, but they tend to differ even between people sitting on the sane pew.

                You seem very intent on picking fights about this though, and the things youre arguing against are not the ones I have said. (Some I believe, some I don’t, some you could maybe stretch to being a straw man of something I believe). You don’t seem to really be arguing with me here, and me engaging with what you say seems to be mostly ignored. Are you okay?