A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.
That will never happen while Netanyahu and his regime are in power. And the only time steps were taken in that direction, the Israeli Prime Minister got assassinated.
Assassinated by hard line Israelis who refuse to accept any type of two states solution. I have always wondered if we would have seen a true two state solution if Yitzhak Rabin hadn’t been shot. I think it probably would have happened.
After reading his biography I fully believe that he could have created Middle East peace he could have been so fucking great he was a good man
The crazy thing is he wasn’t some flower in the hair, love and peace is all we need kind of guy. he was part of the IDF and fought in several of the early conflicts. Then once he entered politics he was the defense minister for 10 years. He had the makings of any hardliner. But he was a guy that believed that peace was the only way forward for a conflict. A soldier who knew war and knew peace was the better choice.
Yeah that’s the best part about it… I firmly believe he was the last chance
Basically one part of the Israeli independence war was a small civil war between left and right Zionists. The lefties won (being more numerous and frankly more popular, after WWII and all) and created a left-nationalist secular state with some meritocratic pretense, friendly with USSR but also with France and UK and USA.
Then they realized the need for pluralism and let the righties back into politics (because of need for their participation and their representation in the military and elsewhere). The righties frankly were more normal then, but that both made them an acceptable force in Israeli politics and still didn’t remove the memory of that small civil war.
And then, after this assassination, a new force came in - the new generation of Irgun cosplayer righties, which wasn’t normal in any sense of the word. By now these cosplayers have hijacked the social discourse in Israel to the level where they both demonize the remaining lefties and the remaining lefties barely make any difference.
The problem with cosplayers is that they need to be grotesquely evil. Otherwise they won’t seem real enough. They also need to be grotesquely dumb. Otherwise their ideology’s inconsistencies will break them apart. Same as with Turkish state being (somewhat) more vegetarian and intelligent than Azerbaijan.
nor will the Hamas remain peaceful…
Considering they’re the only ones offering to lay down arms, I’d say they’re more likely to be peaceful than the IDF and Netanyahu, who are not making such an offer.
They also justified the terrorist attack on the 7th of october, welcomed the large attack on Israel, are not “ashamed to say that Israel has no place in their land and has to be removed” and “will do it again and again”.
So yeah they may lay their weapons down, but they never remain peaceful.
Source: https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html?guccounter=1
Okay? I still only see one side saying they’re willing to lay down arms. “This will end when we get an independent state” vs. “this will end when you’re all dead?” The former seems more reasonable to me. Your mileage may vary.
Your mileage may vary.
It does. I agree that Netanyahu has to go and Palestine should have the chance to be independend, but the Hamas has also to be put down for good. With those terrorist fucks and their degenerated supporters, there will be no peace in the middle east.
How did ‘Al Qaeda has to be put down for good’ work out for the U.S.?
How did ‘Al Qaeda has to be put down for good’ work out for the U.S.?
Not that bad since Osama and Zawahiri are dead. Their last big terrorist attack against America was when, 2010? Against the west in general, in France 2015? Since then they pretty much done or in a clash with the Taliban. If we can do the same with the Hamas, I would call it a win.
Mission Accomplished! Haliburton won ^ every contract^
You can’t shoot an idea. The only way to kill Hamas for good would be genocide. Or actually solving the underlying problem with Palestine, and so starving them of redicalised recruits.
They shouldn’t be ashamed to say it. Israel has no place on their land and should be removed. We aren’t talking about mom and pop tourists but militants that are forcing people out of their homes and killing their children.
What the fuck are you smoking?
If Palestine wasn’t oppressed, no one would be joining Hamas and they would have no power. This is a problem Isreal created for themselves.
I recommend this video, it really shows how what Isreal calls peace is still so oppressive.
It’s pointless arguing this on Lemmy. Everyone here is convinced that the Islamic jihadists are oppressed and just want peace despite what they actually say and do.
I’m not saying that. You guys seem to think Arabs are born angry, though, and so can’t be dealt with just by not being consistently a bastard yourself.
Hey what’s your thoughts on manifest destiny? Just curious
Never heard of it
How do you feel about Irish independence then?
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They also justified the terrorist attack on the 7th of october, welcomed the large attack on Israel, are not “ashamed to say that Israel has no place in their land and has to be removed” and “will do it again and again”.
Now do Israel with the same energy.
Hamas does not break ceasefire deals. Israel does that.
Israeli troops fire at Palestinians attempting to return to northern Gaza during cease-fire
What is it with your constant attempts at whitewashing Hamas? There were four alerts in Israel due to rockets launched from Gaza on that same day.
That day was at the start of the ceasefire.
The Hamas rockets were after the ceasefire.
Notice the week in between?
He needs it as background for his “Voting for Biden is voting for genocide”-LARPing. In my opinion he’s a rightwinger trying to muddy the waters (as if Trump would do fuck all about Gaza)
There was an effective ceasefire before 7th October (apart from the random rockets fired Israel’s way) that was broken pretty badly. Making a ceasefire deal with terrorists that attacked you and took hostages and will never stop attacking you makes no sense.
Effective ceasefire = israel commits Genocide and nobody fights back?
24 September 2023 - Israeli airstrikes hit Gaza for the 3rd day in a row as West Bank violence intensifies
Nobody fights back? You’re having a laugh. They attack Israel constantly. That’s their faith and their purpose to get to paradise. Stop ignoring what they actually say
Israel just “defended themselves” onto Palestinian land and those Untermensch in their concentration camp should shut up and do nothing back for the rest of their lives! How dare Palestinians resist against their brutal oppressors! They should roll over and die in without fighting back like PA does in the West Bank!
But anyways, what was that about a ‘ceasefire’ before oct7?
You’re a terrorist sympathiser. They are not fighting in resistance because they’re oppressed. They’re trying to wipe out Israel because their holy book tells them to.
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Did you read the date before jumping in to defend israel? Not a single goalpost has been moved here.
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I think Clinton may have been the last individual human that could have prevented catastrophe in Gaza. He should have capitilised on it and essentially refused to take no as an answer from Israel. Instead, he just kind of went “oh well”, and here we are.
or while the us is interested in maintaining their geopolitical presence in the region.
honestly i doubt it would be that easy at all.
Lmao, fuck this guy. He doesn’t give two fucks about Palestine or its people.
The fact that a large number of people in the West are denying this and portraying Hamas as freedom fighters is very worrying.
The fact that a large number of people in the West are waking up from the Zionist propaganda is very worrying to you?
Israel being evil doesn’t make Hamas the good guys. If you butcher unarmed men, women, and children, then you’re fucking evil. Fuck Isreal, and fuck Hamas.
“Hitler being evil doesn’t make the Allies the good guys! They bombed Dresden and killed many German civilians!”
“Everyone who does a war crime is equally evil and if you aren’t perfect when you fight back against being Genocided you are equally as evil as the party doing the Genocide!”
Is the PA going to stop israel doing Genocide? Were you doing it? Was America doing it?
Nobody was doing it. Nobody cared. So Hamas fought back. Nobody did anything when they peacefully protested in 2018. Don’t complain now.
Hamas “fought back” by breaking down the doors of Israeli homes and slaughtering the families cowering inside. Gunning down teenagers at a music festival and kidnapping the survivors. That wasn’t strategy. That was fanatical hatred, cowardly, and evil.
Hamas are cowards, perfectly happy to sit back and watch innocent Palestinians be slaughtered in the aftermath.
The IDF has killed 11 thousand men, 9 thousand women, and 14 thousand children, making 34 thousand total killed (an unknown number of which were civilians). Hamas has killed 0.6 thousand military personnel and 0.8 thousand civilians, making 1.4 thousand total killed (57% of which were civilians).
The number of children killed by Isreal (only children) is 17 times larger than the number of civilians killed by Hamas. Of course that doesn’t make killing civilians OK, but I struggle to see an argument that Hamas is worse than the IDF. And if Hamas is the only method by which Palestine can defend itself, then there is a solid argument to be made for it being the lesser evil.
Both groups are murderers. One is just better equipped for it. Hamas hasn’t killed less civilians out of some kind of restraint or combat disipline, they just don’t have the same capability as the IDF. Meanwhile, Israel is gleefully using all the free shit that it’s allies are supplying it with to kill every man woman and child in sight. Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.
And accidentally killing 33% IDF soldiers and destroying every military base next to the Gaza strip. Just pure coincidence.
Hamas has the civilian casualty rate which israel claims the IDF has. And israel has to lie about it.
Actually 45% soldiers. 824 civilians were killed and 678 soldiers and police were killed on October 7th, according to Israel.
Hamas killed soldiers so that they would free to go on their rampage against civilians. Israel accidentally kills civilians as they are trying to fight an enemy that hides behind them and camouflages themselves as civilians precisely to blur the lines between civilians and soldiers. That’s the difference between the two.
If you ever find yourself on either side of asymmetric warfare, and you’re killing kids…you’re the bad guy.
At some point you might learn that simplistic, childish concepts of pure good and evil rarely apply in this world. Yes, the Allies were the good guys in WW2. Being the good guy doesn’t mean you’re perfect, because absolutely nothing is.
At some point you might learn that lesson yourself.
Go find out what the ANC did in South Africa to free themself from their colonizers. Go find out how the Haitans rebelled against their colonizers. Go learn how the American Natives fought back against their colonizers.
Hamas colonial resistance was probably one of the most targeted in all of history with a 33%+ soldier kill rate. But of course nothing is good enough for those that demand absolute perfection from angry people in a concentration camp.
Like the other user said, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa only became successful after it abandoned violent resistance - and citing Haiti as an aspirational example is downright hysterical.
There’s also a massive difference between demanding outright perfection and not applauding people who behead Asian guest workers (who, as I’m sure you are aware, but equally willing to ignore, are not “evil Zionist colonizers”) with a rusty gardening hoe while live-streaming the torture-murder on the Internet. Coincidentally, you seem to have no trouble with demanding outright perfection from the IDF, who, by the way, has a roughly similar soldier kill rate in this conflict according to most estimates - but I bet you are not willing to applaud them for that.
As for what Gaza actually was, here’s what this supposed “concentration camp” looked like before the war:
The ANC in South Africa was largely ineffective. Mandela specifically is a great example of how people can get much more done as moderates than violent radicals. He would never see any sort of true progress until after his imprisonment and subsequent putting down of arms.
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Israel is further from completing their Genocide than they have ever been. They used to be able to just slowly take over land with full international support. Israel is now the pariah of the world and the Abraham accords are gone. Hamas has taken off the mask and shown israel as the Nazis they are.
but rather poured gasoline on the fire.
TIL fighting against the fire = pouring gasoline on it.
People keep claiming that what Hamas did will lead to nothing for the Palestinians. The only thing we can be certain of is that not fighting back will have ensured they burned to death slowly. We’re currently seeing mass protests on college campuses, is that because people are really mad israel is doing a Genocide in the West Bank right now too?
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Pick pretty much any conflict other than WWII. Like WWI. All bastards.
That’s the fun part about ww2. People in concentration camps makes everything very black and white.
Unless they are brown I guess.
It’s not a concentration camp, it’s just a non-exitable area surrounded by barbed wire with not enough food let in. (mostly /s, the OG camps were worse, but really, is that the bar we want to set?)
In Western news and media, everything has to boil down to a good vs evil story. It’s part of the reason our society has become so polarized. In reality, there’s often no good sides in a conflict.
Trevor Noah had a great segment on this, about how it always has to be X vs Y. The example he used was cat people and dog people who get into arguments – “why can’t we just agree that they’re both cute?”
There’s something in the world of intelligence called the “useful idiot”. It’s basically someone who drinks the Kool aid you’re selling and unwittingly works for your agency/country/organization.
Don’t overestimate the wisdom of the average Joe of the Western world.
I just love how many people from “the world of intelligence” knowing all their stuff you can meet on the Web. That’s an /s .
Don’t overestimate the wisdom of the average Joe of the Western world.
My first step in approaching the wisdom of any specific Joe, though, would be whether he considers himself all that smart and cynical or, well, about average. The latter would be wiser.
Well then who is Israel attacking? If Hamas is in Qatar?
You can’t be seriously asking this in good faith.
The Hamas leadership are a bunch of wealthy old men who live abroad in comfort.
Sounds familiar
It is. There’s remarkable symmetry to this (and most) conflicts, in a way.
I would personally reject this deal.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.
I would personally reject this deal.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas.
Instead, they deserve to live under the genocidal tyranny of Israel. Clearly that’s the much better choice.
Why do all of you message me specifically to use the same dishonest bad faith debate tactics?
You said the thing they’re responding to. What are they gonna do, shout their reply down a well? Also, it’s not bad faith just because you disagree with it or don’t understand it; there has to be some intent to deceive or mislead.
They also do not deserve to live under an Israeli genocide.
I mean yeah, but why can’t we have a two state solution that gets rid of Hamas as a governing authority and also stops genocide?
The thing you will notice about these accounts is that they aren’t actually allowed to make unqualified anti-Hamas statements.
Because they almost certainly aren’t real accounts.
Everyone who thinks different than me are not human.
Clearly humans are operating the accounts, friend.
Are you being forced to jump to the defense of Pro-Hamas accounts, or is it a hobby?
Oh, it’s just that everyone that thinks different than you is under duress huh? Or paid? I guess I’m that case I don’t think you’re being vacuous.
I have probably 15 accounts in my inbox accusing me, an explicitly pro-Palestinian person, of being pro-genocide, because I have made anti-Hamas comments. You being one of them.
Perhaps you have a better explanation. Is the movement so full of idiots who can’t differentiate between Hamas and the Palestinian people, or is something else happening here? You tell me.
Hey it’s you again… Getting paid overtime this weekend I hope
Probably thr same rate as you. Though somebody told me they aren’t actually paying you, just offering vague promises of virgins in the afterlife.
Lol there is no afterlife my guy. So ain’t no promise of virgins is going to convince me to do anything.
Why would I want to fuck virgins anyway? I’d prefer the ladies be somewhat experienced… Otherwise it’s boring.
I wouldn’t accept payment for this, I have a real job that’s actually productive and makes peoples’ lives better in tangible ways. That’s enough for me. This is just bonus.
Maybe that’s just a “leftist” attitude that you can’t comprehend.
Are Pro-Hamas tankies actually part of the left though? I don’t know, man, so far I would say you are severely too rightwing for me.
The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972. After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted. This has been a deliberate tactic of De-development.
Gaza Policy Forum summary: Experts agree that Israel’s dual-use policy causes acute distress
Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986. (Arguably, the economic terms of the Gaza—Jericho Agreement modify the situation only slightly.)
- page 240
In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60 percent over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50 percent decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (com- bined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.
- Page 402
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
What specifically in this wall of text is a direct response to what I said?
After Ireland gained independence they fought a civil war. Same in countless outer places. The Greeks fought one while fighting for independence. I fully expect the Palestinians to do the same.
The thing is: the Israelis don’t get to decide any of this. That what independence from Israel means.
Israel is preventing this self determination by enforcing the weapons blockade on Gaza. All Israel has to do is nothing. Just stop actively preventing these people from being armed, and the human spirit will do the rest.
And just to be clear, I do NOT mean “CIA should go train some paramilitary to take down Hamas”.
Instead I mean “This is a gun store. Any adult may come here and trade money for a gun. That gun is now yours to do with as you see fit. You can hang it on your wall. You can use it to make sandwiches. You can shoot cans in an alley. Whatever. It’s your gun.”
Literally just let these people exercise their rights.
Americans, man.
I dunno the question but the answer is more guns B-)
Israel is preventing this because, in practice, most people don’t want to die in a civil war. This would just lead to better-equipped terrorists killing even more Jews.
It said a free Palestinian State not Hamas rules
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I don’t believe that. Right wing fuckheads with weapons don’t generally give up their power, especially after they had already taken away the right to vote.
A lot of dead Palestinians will be on your hands if you are wrong here. The price of being wrong is too high for me to agree with you, though I wish I could.
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I’m not personally willing to settle for a choice between genocides Palestinians or Jews, and with Hamas in power, you are going to get both.
If Hamas wants to prove me wrong, and responsibly lead their people, maybe their political apparatus should stop being cowards, leave their Qatari skyscraper, and return to Palestine, and prove they want the responsibility of leading a nation.
They don’t want that. Stop taking terrorists at their word just because they are the underdog.
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So if the Hamas terrorists are in Qatar why is Israel bombing Palestine
I ask myself the same thing.
Right-wing fuck heads with weapons? You mean like israel? And you say the price of being wrong is too high for you to agree with someone… there is no price for you!!! You live in comfort, not being bombed everyday. You’re an armchair critic who pays not 1 ounce of a price for your dumb opinion.
The price is more dead Palestinians and Jews.
And no offense, but you aren’t paying that cost either. Doesn’t mean we deny the cost will be paid.
I mean there are literally almost no more Palestinians alive on Earth anymore but go off
Hamas has been given millions of dollars by Israel over the years while any other potential political group has been surpressed. Without Israel they may actually have a chance at forming alternative groups. There is already the blood of nearly 40,000 Palestinians on our hands.
You might have blood on your hands, but I don’t.
You mean to fight the occupation?
Haha. Some fight. Millions of people living and dying in poverty and malnourishment so they could do a mass shooting of 1,300 people. They really showed em!
They have zero chance of fighting Israel and the only proper course for Hamas is an unconditional surrender and whatever peace terms Israel will grant them. They should be lucky to get the rights due prisoners of war. Usually you have to put yourself in a uniform to get those rights.
Hamas went all in hoping that once all of the other Muslim nations saw their merry slaughter of Jews, they would happily and immediately join in and attack Israel from all sides to complete the attempted genocide. They forgot about or chose to ignore a few things:
Israel has nukes and would use them if they felt fundamentally threatened, Israel has conventionally defeated every army that has ever attacked them (if sometimes by the skin of their teeth), has made reluctant, but reliable allies out of some of their former enemies and crippled others. Hamas didn’t consider that Biden would protect Israel and fully commit to it, they kept the preparations for their attack so secret that only Tehran and Moscow knew about them, but crucially not Hezbollah (which ended up being muzzled by the American carrier groups anyway) and they gave nobody the necessary heads up for the months of buildup required for a full on war, because that would have given the whole thing away. While Hamas skillfully (with Russian and Iranian help) overcame the border defenses, they wasted the element of surprise on random carnage instead of overrunning the same airfields that have since been launching thousands of sorties that are, day by day, obliterating their organization.
And so on and so forth. The entire idea was foolish from the start and had no chance of success. Not that Moscow and Tehran expected any. They just used Hamas as pawns, hoping to weaken the US with this conflict. It’s the standard zero sum game that autocrats love to play so much.
The Palestinian cause was already dying and it was only time before they were erased or expunged. What hamas did was revive that cause, even if you don’t agree with them killing civilians (which i dont either). Most Palestinians were already living in terrible conditions and not because of hamas but because of the israel blockade of gaza. Which rendered it essentially to concentration camp.
The 1300 figure wasnt all by hamas. And from what we know so far about 300 were soliders, 300 were killed by israel themselves in the crossfire, and 300 were indeed civilians.
So far hamas has done pretty good for it self and has made some losses for israel. At the very least you can see its not a victory for israel.
Bud anyone that died in the chaos on October 7 was killed by Hamas. That’s how criminal culpability works.
The blockade too was caused by Hamas and its ideological allies and predecessors. Every fucked up thing about Gaza in 2024 is traceable to poor decisions by their own leadership. They turned every public institution into instrumentalities of international terrorism. Hamas is the enemy. It’s sad they have used psychotic interpretations of Islam to convince apparently significant portions of the Gazans public that Martyrdom™ is a civic duty, like where a legitimate state might have jury service or voting, but an evil, fanatical thing, not civic at all.
By your logic, Israel’s government is just as culpable: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Every fucked up thing about Gaza in 2024 is traceable to poor decisions by their own leadership
What a disgusting lack of knowledge of the areas history, wow
This is the reality no one wants to accept. Either surrender unconditionally, or be ethnically cleansed because it’s clear the rest of the world’s governments don’t care.
Yeah, it’s clear ethnic cleansing, God of Blood, only 2.06 million of 2.10 million Gazans are left!
Yeah, and we’re 7.5 months into the war. Over all of WWII, the Nazis couldn’t kill all of the Jews (and everyone else they were trying to kill) in Europe. Give it time. If they’re allowed to keep this up, there will be a more complete ethnic cleansing.
…can you be more clear about what your comment means in reference to what I said?
“tunnels to commit terrorism from” is hardly objective. Terrorism is what oppressors call fighting for one’s freedom, and Israel is invading territory which is not theirs, ergo, your comment appears to be cheering from the wrong side of history. The way your comment stands, it seems to end on a different sentiment than it starts off with.
Before I engage with a blatantly Pro-Hamas statement, please first explain how Hamas is fighting for the freedom for Palestinians, including women and LGBTQ citizens.
If unable, and you refuse to revise your Pro-Hamas stance, you will immediately be blocked.
An anti Israeli (Zionist) stance isn’t equal to pro Hamas.
The guy was literally stating what happens during an occupation.
The victors write history
Unless you are responding under a different account, I am going to give the original commentator a chance to respond and revise his statement.
Claiming that the modern political apparatus of Palestine are mere freedom fighters is a lie, and I will not engage with it.
No, not same person.
So in other words you’re a Zionist?
GREAT! /s
Every action has a equal and opposite action. Eg you attack civvies you create ‘terrorists’ aka Hama’s
Israel created a problem that allows them to syphon money from other countries for committing genocide
What does it matter if they have other political motives? The world is enabling their utter annihilation, children, babies, innocent people with no political ambition. That must be stopped before we wring our hands about what they might do with freedom. They are human beings, people with lives and families, not wild rabid animals.
Ahh yes. Reject the deal, continue the starvation and murder of thousands and thousands of Palestinians by Israel. Because what would be more liberating than being murdered?
I see statements like “Free Gaza from Hamas” to justify the continued genocide. It is no suprise, given that the Nazis wrote “Arbeit macht frei”. “Work makes free”,
Twisting genocide into claiming it to be a liberation of the people they are genociding. Now i am not sure, if you belong to these bad faith people, but if you wonder, why you are getting backlash, it is because your statement seems to be advocating for that.
Why do you automatically assume somebody who is anti-Hamas is pro-war?
Probably so you have an excuse to call people Nazis.
I won’t be engaging with that nonsense. You can message again with an intent of more respectful dialog or you can be blocked.
If you are not arguing in bad faith, then you should acknowledge the consequences and the context of “not taking a deal from Hamas”. And these consequences are continued death and destruction. You didn’t address that context. Which is why i provided the context of these kind of statements by people using these stances in bad faith.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas
Depends. Does conversion to a political party imply free elections and opposition parties to exist?
No, obviously Hamas would not take a deal that is conditional upon [the UN?] removing them from power and holding elections.
Not obviously. Hence my request for clarification.
Which terror groups that took full power restored the right to vote after having already stripped their people of that right?
A terror group with full power is no longer a terror group.
So… You concede that there are no terror orgs who have expanded the rights of the people they control?
The basis of your statement is nonsensical.
Terror organisations don’t control the rights of people. (If they did, then terrorism would not be needed)
Which is why they won’t be handed autonomy over Palestine.
Glad we are in agreement.
But are Hamas asking for autonomy over Palestine? Conversion to a political party doesn’t necessarily imply this.
The first step toward true justice is removing the weapons blockade from Gaza. Allow the people to exercise their god-given right to be armed, and give them the chance to kill Hamas themselves. It’s a ruling junta, not a legitimate government. Palestinians haven’t consented to Hamas in decades, and Israel is keeping them disarmed (which obviously is only affecting the regular people, and not doing anything to keep Hamas from arming).
Let them arm themselves. Let them do as they will with their overlords.
Why would that go better in Palestine than in Afghanistan where the people didn’t fight the terrorists even after decades of training, arming, and attempted nation-building?
Because it would be a different strategy. In Afghanistan we coddled them, acted as their trainers and support structure for two decades. Of course they weren’t going to fight when we left. We didn’t train them to fight we taught them military tactics. People fight on their own if they’re able; it’s human nature.
In Gaza what I’m proposing is to stop blockading weapons. Nothing more. It’s a violation of those people’s rights to deny them weapons.
I think an autonomous zone like we see in Syria would be a great thing.
I’m not familiar with it. What is that and why do you think it’s a good idea for Gaza?
An autonomous zone is a geographical area in which the established state has lost (whether temporarily or permanently) authority, and the people within the zone are governed through direct democracy. I believe democratic anarchism is the term most autonomous zones fall under.
I think the Palestinians, or at least Gazans could strongly benefit from this. But of course, to set something like this up, we need to get the Palestinian people food, water, weapons and radios, all things are which both Israel and Hamas are preventing the Palestinians from having.
I agree…but one thing at a time. When Palestine is free, then they can get rid of Hamas. But right now, they’re on the same team against Israel…against literal genocide. A violently oppressive fundamentalist government is obviously something to shed when you have a state to expel them from. But they’re living under the worst case scenario right now. Hamas is their only defense at the moment against genocidal colonialist state. Fighting a battle on two fronts is a recipe for complete destruction.
If you consider that Hamas only exists to fight against Israeli oppression over an ineffective PA, it makes sense that if the oppression ends, Hamas becomes irrelevant.
It’s important to note that for most of its existence, “fighting against Israeli oppression” explicitly meant Israel no longer existing. This is the first time I can remember them even implying that they would accept a two state solution.
they accepted a two-state solution previously, the isreali PM that was negotiating with them at the time was assassinated.
Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli law student who didn’t believe in the peace talks. Hamas didn’t even kill him, Israel did it. No fucking surprise there.
Hamas was also not in power back then, in no position to accept or reject any solution.
You saying Israel killed him is like saying Palestine committed Oct. 7th’s terrorist attack.
Israel didn’t kill the guy, a lone Israeli student did. This is one of those times when facts and nuance matter.
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That was in the 70’s, he was killed by a student, not the government.
And the PA, including Yasser Arafat, have turned it down 4 or 5 times. Yasser Arafat turned it down last time in 2002/2004(?). They have never taken it seriously.
Camp Davis and the Oslo Accords were a way for Israel to change the De Facto annexation of the West Bank into a De Juro annexation. While giving the PA a ‘semblence’ of a state still under Israeli Military Control. There was no offer of a sovereign state, nor of right of return. Arafat didn’t reject a Two-State Solution, he walked away from a verbal ‘offer’ of taking 90% (later ~80% once written up in Oslo) of the Occupied Palestinian Territories, while ignoring all Palestinian wants such as Right of Return and Sovereignty with an end to Occupation.
Camp David: a tragedy of errors - The Guardian
Deconstructing Camp David - Al Jazeera
What Really Happened Between Barak and Arafat at Camp David? - Haaretz
Oslo accords: 30 years on, the dream of a two-state solution seems further away than ever - The Conversation
If Arafat wasn’t serious about negotiations, why sit down at all and risk his position in the PLO? For decades the ‘Three Nos’ stunted any Arab-Israeli diplomacy, and the maximalists still hold sway today as they did then
Israel refused the right of return for Palestinians as a whole, while for decades doing all within their power to boost Jewish immigration, bankroll Aliyah flights, rubber stamp naturalization, and regular ‘missionary’ trips to visit US and European nations - all only for ethnic Jews, and their spouses.
A two-tiered system based on race is hardly a fair deal, especially in a democratic system where your people are denied fair representation whilst Jew from the world over are invited to jump on a plane and become a full citizen after three months
Every offer has been in bad faith, though, designed to be a non-starter so that Israel could claim they tried.
Better check that history video again. It wasn’t Hamas at that table
Before 1948, Palestinian Leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State for decades: Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928, Arab Higher Committee advocating for Unified State 1937, Arab League advocating for Unified State 1948
After the founding of Israel, the Two-State Solutions were utilized to further annex the Palestinian Occupied Territories and enact military control over Palestinians while denying them human and civil rights. This is apartheid. Despite this, both Fatah and Hamas have accepted a Two-State Solution on the 1967 borders, with the two most important factors being the Right of Return of Palestinian refugees and an end to the permanent occupation.
Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ
History of peace process - The Intercept
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
- Avi Shlaim
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
They wanted a unified Arab state, and they wanted the non-Arab immigrants out
And failing that, they tried to put a genocide on them
Small details, I know
They wanted a unified Arab state, and they wanted the non-Arab immigrants out
It’s true they wanted it to be an Arab state, since the vast majority were Arab. It’s not that they wanted ‘non-arab immigrants’ out, it’s that Zionist Settler Colonialism was quite different from normal immigration. Instead of integration, the early land purchases led to the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians in the early 1900’s. Many Palestinians opposed the Zionist Land Purchases and Immigration because of fears they would be forced out of their homes and communities, not because they were Jewish.
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
And failing that, they tried to put a genocide on them
Are you talking about the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians? Because that was planned and carried out. There was nothing remotely equivalent from Palestinians or the Arab Liberation Army.
It’s true they wanted it to be an Arab state, since the vast majority were Arab
If you have sympathy for that argument, what’s the difference with jewish people who want the same? Both wanted to be the first class citizens in their country.
the early land purchases led to the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians in the early 1900’s
That’s true, but it’s not different from renters who are forced out after their landlord sells the property. It’s not a ‘nice’ part of humanity, but it’s generally accepted as ‘fair’. Of course it’s true that most zionist immigrants had no plans to integrate with non-jews. Partly because of their own religious backwardness, partly because they moved there specifically to escape religious oppression.
There was nothing remotely equivalent from Palestinians or the Arab Liberation Army
There certainly was: Nebi Musa riots; 1929 Palestine Riots; etc. certainly showed the intent of many Palestinian Arabs to put an ethnic cleansing on the jews.
You’re quite wrong if you don’t think the ALA or others didn’t go in with the same intent. You should look up their logo or statements from their organizers prior to their attack. The only reason one side won is because the other side lost
Well, they did fuck around and find out. Now they are facing an existential threat of their own and suddenly reasonable?
Funny how that works
They said they would accept 1967 borders in their 2017 charter, so it’s been done before. It was also less antisemitic than their previous charter. I think they’re trying to be less extreme and more flexible to get more recruitment maybe, but that’s just my guess.
They’ve publicly held this position for nearly 20 years now. When they publicly adopted it and got elected as the new Palestinian Authority because of it, Israel immediately declared war and prevented them taking power.
4 or 5 other times it was offered and every time it was shot down by the PA because either it wasn’t from the river to the sea or all jews have to leave.
It was never about sharing, it was about keeping it all to themselves.
That’s a chicken and egg problem, though, isn’t it: Netanyahu’s government wants Hamas because the conflict keeps Bibi out of prison, and Hamas wants to remain relevant. All the same, the Israeli and Palestinian people are the ones who suffer due to both regimes being in power, and Hamas doesn’t shed its guilt just because Israel doesn’t want a reasonable Palestinian government. Neither side wants to blink because they have multi-generational hatred for the other side, and that means popular support for further violence probably isn’t going anywhere. You back down! No, you back down!
The result is that neither side is going to take real steps to deescalate, because both sides benefit from the conflict. That the Palestinians are suffering more, by orders of magnitude, doesn’t make either side’s position any less entrenched: Bibi wants to stay in power (and free), and Hamas wants to remain relevant and in power, and they’re more justified now than ever. Both regimes need to be replaced.
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’
-Article 7 of Hamas’ founding charter
They were founded to kill Jews and push them out of Palestine. They’re not righteous freedom fighters.
“Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”
-prayer of Sheik Ahmad Bahr
They’re just as genocidal as Israel has been as of late, they just lack the same capability Israel does.
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. Hamas wants an end to Israel as an Apartheid State, not an extermination of all Israelis. Under Ahmed Yassin in the 1990’s, truces were offered in exchange for Israeli to withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank to the 1967 borders. The 2017 Revised charter explicitly accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he’s not Palestinian.
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
No I don’t support Hamas as a ruling party, I want Palestinians to be able to have free fair elections.
Thanks for the links, I’ll give this a read later today.
I think that person you’re replying to’s point is they won’t be able to recruit at the same right without the huge group of angry, oppressed people that Israel keeps producing. They’ll wither away out off non-relevance.
Hamas exists because it and Islamic Jihad are the militant wings of The Muslim Brotherhood, a group founded in WWII as unit of the Waffen-SS Afrikakorp.
Their goal was and always has been the death of every single Jew on the planet.
Holy misinformation batman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
Hassan al-Banna founded the Muslim Brotherhood in the city of Ismailia in March 1928 along with six workers of the Suez Canal Company, as a Pan-Islamic, religious, political, and social movement.
They were opposed to colonialism, both in the form of British occupation and the threat of Zionism - the direct result of which we’re seeing today.
They did side with the axis powers in WW2, but we’ve seen that elsewhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army - the logic being that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Also,
al-Banna and other members of the Brotherhood voiced admiration for aspects of Nazi ideology, including its militarism and its centralization revolving around a charismatic leader but opposed others like its racial policies and ethnic nationalism.
At this point we can’t say the same about Israel given it is entirely founded on ethnic nationalism.
Exactly. I can’t understand why** people clutch their pearls at brown people siding with the Axis while accepting as an unfortunate side story the same thing from, say, Finland and nationalists in the Baltics or Ukraine.
Fuck Nazis but let’s be consistent in our standards about it.
**I mean, I can understand what racism is.
Hamas has lied about peace and democracy in the past. They became the state of Palestine by winning an election in which they promised to stop attacks on civilians and be democratic, then refusing to hold an election for 2 decades.
Israel is a genocidal regime and needs to be stopped. But that doesn’t make Hamas the good guys. A long-term solution can’t include the current governments of either Israel or Palestine.
Hamas won an election in 2007, which no other country accepted the results of. Israel responded with a blockade. Not saying they’re the good guys but it’s not like it’s a level playing field.
What! They “won” an election that nobody outside HAMAS found legitimate??? And then the country they promise to exterminate reacted? No way!?!?!?!?
Don’t let facts get in your way:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
International observers noted that the elections, for the most part, were conducted fairly and in accordance with international standards.
There were some reports of voter obstruction - caused by Israel.
Yes also don’t forget that Fatah immediately led a coup against them, with public support and arms from Israel and support from US.
Quite a long term they have, 17 years and counting.
I thought we don’t accept the results of the election?
Immediately after the election, Fatah, with US and Israeli support dismissed the Hamas government, which Hamas obviously disagreed with.
At this point there’s a stalemate where we (the West) and Fatah don’t recognize the Hamas government and Hamas can’t call an election because they have not officially governed.
Nothing is stopping them from holding another election. There’s clearly a desire for one, since Hamas has violently quelled dissent in the past.
The fact of the matter is that Hamas is looking out for Hamas, and that they haven’t held elections in 14 years heavily underscores that.
To be absolutely clear, Israel is still the greater evil here. But that doesn’t mean that Hamas isn’t an authoritarian dictatorship either.
HAMAS exists to exterminate Isreal and its inhabitants. Their offer is ‘free Palestine, let us be the dominant political party, and let us form and official national army, then we chill for 5 years! Don’t worry what we might do after that!’
Hamas isn’t going to just die out if they win. Isreal would be suicidal if they agreed to the ‘deal’.
Hamas ran in the 2006 election under a completely different name, in an effort to demonstrate that they can in fact separate themselves from their militant faction.
Remember, Israel also had its origins in armed struggle (against the British).
Edit: although this is probably Israeli projection, given that the armed factions did become the Israeli military. And we all know what they’re up to.
Oke, and Israel exists to exterminate Palestinians and other arabs in their holy quest for greater Israel. Why is Israel continuing to settle the West Bank if Hamas is the big bad?
Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you’re just back in the same place. If it works then you have peace.
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Follow the North Ireland model independent verification of compliance (on both sides).
The Hamas guy in the OP is literally talking about how they would lay down arms and become a party. IRA to Sinn Fein.
(Will there be splinter hardliners? Sure! There is a civil war at the end of Independence. But there is a promise of peace after the civil war.)
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A better organized Palestinian military is a natural consequence of independence. And ideally yes, the best trained Hamas fighters will be joining it and be under government control, fighting against the hardliner splinters to enforce the hypothetical Independence Peace agreement, rather than being the hardliner splinters.
The road to peace will be very very messy. It is the bed Israel made and has to sleep on. The time when a relatively clean, peaceful transition to 2SS could have happened was right after Oslo. But here we are and it’s either a super messy transition to 2SS that will require nerves of steel to not intervene in the civil war, or a super messy transition transition to a democratic post-apartheid 1SS that will also require nerves of steel and a political and cultural transformation. Or … the ethnic cleansing, which hardliners in both Israel and Palestine dream of and we all dread.
hamas can’t commit large-scale attacks on israel… Nobody can… Does anybody remember the iron fucking Dome that they have? Nobody is attacking Israel it’s retarded to think that they are.
Peace means Israelis can’t steal land from people their government murdered.
Peace doesn’t sell arms (weapons)
Gotta love the wording in this article “Hamas, which is committed to the destruction of Israel…”
It’s because the “state” of Israel is inseparable from a military blockade that imposes a starvation regime and illegally settles lands in the West Bank in direct defiance of the UN. It’s like saying I’m committed to the destruction of the US because I’m committed to ending criminal wars of aggression, unconstitutional mass surveillance, and a prison system with 2 million residents.
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.”
Made up tripe should be treated as such, and people who believe in any kind of religious doctrine are delusion and deranged. We shouldn’t trust religious people with positions of authority or power, look at where this has gotten humanity.
Fully agree.
And to be crystal clear - that applies across all religions. It’s all bullshit and none of it should influence people in positions of power in any government.
“Best we can do is value menu holocaust.”
Even that they are failing hard at. Despite all the unimaginable cruelty and choicest Western weaponry, all they have succeeded in is causing utter destruction and wholesale slaughter; they have neither decisively defeated Hamas or broken the resolve of a people they have blockaded more or less since 1967. What a bunch of losers.
With them on top of that new state? There will never be peace as long as Netanyahu and Hamas are in power. They all need to go
It’s interesting how you select one person from the israeli government but all of Hamas.
Hamas is far more peaceful than israel. They have proven this in 2018 with their peaceful march. The problem is that israel does not respond to words.
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Hamas is the elected head of a stateless people who’s land was stolen by Europeans. You label them terrorists, I label them as justified warriors for the land and genocide to which they have been subjugated.
This isn’t a both sides argument, as western media tries again and again to frame every fucking story. This is the oppressed fighting back.
Terrorist labels aren’t used for armed forces protecting settlers as they rampage Palestinian villages. Terrorist labels aren’t used as hospitals are leveled. Terrorist labels aren’t used when they drop leaflets to tell civilians to move to a place to avoid getting shelled and then SHELLING that place. Terrorist labels aren’t used when a large percentage of children of a whole People grow up without parents because of mass murder. Terrorism isnt used for the decades of genocide. Decades.
Terrorist labels get used when those children become adults and respond how most of us would respond to the conditions of the open air prison in which they reside and will likely die early. Why on earth would you expect them to be peaceful?
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And why haven’t they had an election in 18 years? Because they are a subjugated people and Israel won’t allow elections.
There are no good sides here, but that’s a particularly bad gotcha argument.
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Living under an Apartheid State with no human or civil rights, subjected to violence Occupying Force on a daily basis, is not ‘having a border with them’
Edit:
To clarify, my point is that free and fair elections are impossible under an Apartheid Regime.
Hamas certainly tortures and kills political rivals, and has been exposed for corruption. In addition, Fatah is also corrupt, seen as working at the behest of Israel at the expense of Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Both have been funded by Israel as part of a Divide and Conquer tactic. Israel also has a long history of assassinating more moderate and leftist political Palestinian rivals.
Hamas Victory Driven By Desire To End Corruption WPO
Hamas Political Violence in Gaza - HRW 2009
Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict - Amnesty
Gaza: Journalist facing prison term for exposing corruption in Hamas-controlled ministry - Amnesty
Palestinians furious and fed up with corruption of Abbas’s ‘mafia’ PA - MEE
“Divide and Rule”: How Israel Helped Start Hamas to Weaken Palestinian Hopes for Statehood - DemocracyNow
Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations – review - The Guardian
If they were so in favor of Elections how come Hamas is the ones who cracked down on all those Palestinian protests the previous summer?
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Because Netanyahu is not Israel and Hamas is not Palestine. Why do I not name Hamas leader? Maybe cause it’s not common knowledge since they hide in Egypt and Jordan, in their villas and don’t come out except to bomb malls and steal humanitarian supplies meant for Gaza.
But seriously why are you defending terrorists? I’m not defending Netanyahu, I’m saying he needs to be gone.
I’d love to see your thoughts if you’d been in the area to experience Hamas’ “peace” on October 7th.
Why would I visit an apartheid regime that colonizes stolen land?
I certainly hope you’re not an American and have never been to the United States, because I’ve got some unfortunate news about who that land properly belongs to.
Are Americans actively being resisted against by the people they are occupying or has there been a peace treaty somewhere?
I wonder.
Unfortunately, in a recent poll 80% of israeli said that israel should take into consideration the suffering of civilians. Only less than 2% said they believed the IDF is using too much fire power. I think there is a deeper issue with people’s sentiments.
I think Israeli leadership has already made the decision that all of that region is their land and they’re not sharing it with anybody, or if they do, it’ll be smaller reservations, similar to American Indian reservations in the US. They just want the Palestinians to eventually fade away. Violent groups like Hamas just help them more than anything because it gets Israelis riled up and gives their military an excuse to go in and carve out even more territory, so I’m sure they don’t even care about this, they’re like, “Why would we want you to lay down your arms?”
I think Israeli leadership has already made the decision that all of that region is their land and they’re not sharing it with anybody
Left unchecked, this is only going to be the beginning.
Jordan condemns far-right Israeli minister over “Greater Israel” map
Jordan accused far-right Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich of violating the peace agreement between the two countries after he gave a speech in Paris at a podium featuring a map that included Jordan and the occupied West Bank as part of Israel and said the Palestinian people were “an invention.”
https://currentaffairs.adda247.com/greater-israel-map/
The term “Greater Israel“ has been a contentious and debated concept related to the State of Israel and its territorial boundaries. This article explores the controversial idea of a “Greater Israel” and the various interpretations surrounding it. The concept of a “Greater Israel”, according to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, is a Jewish State stretching “from the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.”
And they pretend to be outraged when they hear “from the river to the sea.”
That map is disgusting.
it’ll be smaller reservations, similar to American Indian reservations in the US.
The genocide of Native Americans happened when the world was less civilized, people as a whole were less aware and more disconnected. Allowing genocide in any era is unacceptable, it shouldn’t happen now.
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Terrorism is a verb.
Terrorists are people that commit terrorism.
Official count is now 42,000 dead Palestinians, but that is because the ability to count the dead no longer exists. The number is probably closer to 100,000
Israeli doctors have come forward to detail how amputations are regular for Palestinian prisoners who have been zip tied for months now.
Any definition of terrorism that includes Hamas, also includes the Israeli government.
Edit: recognizing your username, now is when you’ll call me antisemitic.
The number is probably closer to 100,000
Based on what exactly?
Based on time under starvation conditions, the mass graves the IDF seems constitutionally incapable of not leaving behind, and counts of missing family members.
It is interesting that Lemmy is so small that I can recognize the usernames of genocide defenders so easily.
Tell me: is there any line crossed, any action taken by the IDF that you wouldn’t automatically defend?
Do you think it is right that Palestinians prisoners should be zip tied long enough that their limbs die and need too be cut off?
Based on time under starvation conditions, the mass graves the IDF seems constitutionally incapable of not leaving behind, and counts of missing family members.
Can you share your methodology of calculating this number? You are not basing this on anything but your gut-feeling. Given how most of your comments consist of blindly parroting propaganda instead of even trying to form any in-depth understanding of this topic, that’s not surprising. Hell, you once attacked me for trying to bring nuance into this debate, at which point I was done with you for that day, because could there be anything more intellectually bankrupt?
is there any line crossed, any action taken by the IDF that you wouldn’t automatically defend?
Sure thing. If orders to deliberately exterminating Palestinians came to light, that would certainly be it. Those should exist if the goal of the IDF, as frequently claimed by people like you who make up fantasy numbers to then feel outraged about, was genocide. Of course, this clashes with various efforts of the same IDF to prevent Palestinian civilians from being harmed, which is kind of odd, don’t you think?
So either they are using e.g. roof knocking and a whole range of other warning measures just for PR-purposes (even though it significantly hurts their military efforts and their PR - Hamas can escape and the moment any building is being roof-knocked, dozens of cameras are immediately on it in order to film it, with lots of people feeling perfectly safe, trusting that this building and only this building will be hit; strange that) or the truth isn’t as simple as you are so desperately trying to make it be. You haven’t exactly been writing particularly well thought out comments on this topic at any point. Not that this limits your enthusiasm for your self-righteous preaching. Dunning, meet Kruger.
Do you think it is right that Palestinians prisoners should be zip tied long enough that their limbs die and need too be cut off?
No, but good job trying distracting from your fantasy numbers. This might constitute criminal neglect. Those responsible should be punished and measures should be undertaken to prevent this from occurring. While internal review processes are far from perfect at the IDF, they do at least exist and are being applied. Two senior officers responsible for ordering the recent air strikes on aid workers were sacked, for example. The same could happen here as well.
I would like to bring this back around to said mass graves the IDF is denying:
That takes more than a couple of people
Said mass graves that have been there for longer than the IDF? Of course they are denying them.
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360891624665180
Nitter link (might not always be working):
https://nitter.poast.org/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466#m
GAZA STRIP: Famine is imminent as 1.1 million people, half of Gaza, experience catastrophic food insecurity - Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC)
Would you mind providing the source of this visualization so that I can read further into this? Thanks!
I get that this is the other side of the conflict, but this is a whataboutism. All of that which you wrote can be true without invalidating what the previous person wrote.
When one side is committing a genocide and intentionally killing children then maybe, just maybe, it’s important to call that out.
What the OP did was try to justify an ongoing genocide by calling the other side terrorists.
That is what you’re defending by calling responses to that as whataboutism. Good job.
One side? Both sides are doing this. The details are different, but both sides are being evil here.
Hamas did some war crimes by taking civilians as hostages, which is bad, and I condemn them. But they aren’t perpetrating a genocide like Israel is. It’s two very different scales of evil here, and it’s important to point that out.
Since it’s inception, putting a genocide on the jews has been a stated goal of Hamas. They glorified those that put this into practice. The only reason they haven’t been as effective as the zionists is their lack of respective capability. But don’t ever doubt they are evil
Not for lack of trying, which you people intentionally ignore to suit your own narrative.
What the OP did was try to justify an ongoing genocide by calling the other side terrorists.
I don’t believe that is what their comment was implying at all. Again, both things can be true. Hamas can be terrorists and Israel can be guilty of exceptionally disproportionate violence fueling an agenda of unforgivable genocide.
Reality doesn’t exist in black and white.
You’re at the very least anti-partsofspeech.
You just got downvoted for correctly realizing that terrorism is literally a noun. Strange times.
My comment was terrorismed.
I didn’t downvote you, but I didn’t understand your comment are all. But, I probably couldn’t diagram a sentence anymore.
But, at the risk of being stupid here, wouldn’t terrorist be the noun and terrorism the verb?
Terrorist is someone who uses violence against a civilian population to enact political change, and terrorism is the act of using violence against a civilian population to enact change?
Thanks for asking. I respect that.
Terrorism is a noun. It is the use or act of political violence to create fear in a populace. It’s a little tricky because those sound like doing something, which would be a verb. But we’re describing the thing those people are doing.
Terrorists do acts of terrorism. People do things. What do they do? They terrorize. They terrorized. They will terrorize. She terrorizes. That’s the verb.
Terroristic would be the adjective.
Huh, okay, I think I see where you are coming from.
The only issue I have with trouble with understanding is that I don’t think terrorism and terrorize can be considered the same word.
If I’m a terrorist, I do a terrorism, I don’t terrorize.
Similarly, I terrorize my cats when the get poop on a paw with water, but I don’t commit a terroristic act against them when I wash their feet
Of course, I think most of that comes from creaturely a poorly defined word with an amorphous meaning that is based off of, but isn’t, a similar word.
Terror may be a root word for terrorism, but I fell like the definition has changed enough that the conjugation is different
I honestly don’t understand how people who think this is easy can think math is hard.
Than you got your previous response, too. I did find out useful.
Edit: to be clear, I am fully aware I have no idea what I’m talking about here, language wise, so the above ‘I think I can see where you were coming from’ was meant more as a ‘I think I understand’
What’s the difference between terrorists and the resistance to an occupation?
I suspect you are not asking in good faith, but I’m answering anyway: Methods and goals. Hamas methods are clear: Legitimate resistance doesn’t deliberately and as a core policy murder, abduct and rape civilians. Hamas are no different from IS in this regard, which nobody calls resistance or freedom fighters.
Goals: Hamas actual and openly stated goal is the creation of a global Islamic caliphate and the murder and/or enslavement of all “nonbelievers”, not the liberation of the Palestinian people.
How many Palestinian prisoners do the IDF hold from the west bank?
How are they taken?
What level of evidence is required for them to be ‘arrested’?
Do they face the same legal processes as the Israeli ‘settlers’ when arrested?
What is the difference between the words ‘hostage’ and ‘prisoner’ to you?
How many Palestinian prisoners, including children, are reported raped each year in prison?
I’m all for the establishment of a free Palestinian state, but Hamas has to go.
Preferably through police action rather than the genocide that is a military intervention by Israel.
Anyway, the Israeli government is in the wrong on all the counts you raised, but Hamas still needs to go. They’ve been fully co-opted by all sorts of outside groups, and their rule in Gaza before October 7th was one of fear and oppression. They are no one’s saviors, they’re just the meanest bastards in the prison, lashing out at the guards while abusing the other prisoners.
The actual path to peace is a multinational police and peacekeeping force to come in and take over from the IDF, keeping the IDF out of it completely, and then opening up Gaza and the West Bank to the rest of the world. Possibly even ejecting the settlers from the West Bank and giving the land back.
But a large part of this would be arresting Hamas leadership.
And don’t think I’d let the IDF and Israeli government off scot-free for their part in all this. I’m sure there’s plenty of room in the local prisons for all the bastards in this mess.
The end goal might be a single, secular state, where all people are guaranteed full rights and protections by the government.
There is no opening Gaza or The West Bank to the rest of the world though, every nation bordering either one has built walls, minefields, and razorwire barriers to prevent any movement into or out of those areas, and there are no air or seaports.
There is no opening Gaza or The West Bank to the rest of the world though, every nation bordering either one has built walls, minefields, and razorwire barriers to prevent any movement into or out of those areas, and there are no air or seaports.
There is no opening Gaza or The West Bank to the rest of the world though, every nation bordering either one has built walls, minefields, and razorwire barriers to prevent any movement into or out of those areas, and there are no air or seaports.
Well that’s a lie.
This seems to directly contradict the claims of the actual Hamas statements we are looking at right now.
Interesting that you can pick and choose which Hamas leader statements to believe in forming this narrative. Also, it is a little ironic that you claim others are engaging in bad faith while you manipulate which statements are valid from the same source.
The distinction comes from the ends they seek and the means they go about achieving those ends.
Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”
-prayer of Sheik Ahmad Bahr
I could easily get behind a platform that acknowledges that 7 million Jews now live in Israel and forcing them out (or even worse, killing them) would be a humanitarian catastrophe, but instead Hamas’ position is just as unyielding and genocidal as what Bibi’s admin has been waging upon the people of Gaza and the West Bank. They’re only now talking about laying down their arms because it benefits their attempts to paint themselves as the reasonable party in this conflict which I find to be a farce. More conflict and death benefits both Likud and Hamas.
Are you going to spam the same quote from some dude that’s already dead all over the thread? The fact you can’t find anything more recent than is astounding. Let’s do it the other way around:
I posted it twice, somehow that qualifies as spam, fucking lol. Fuck that lady and the other genocidal maniacs at the wheel in Israel.
”The cleansing of Palestine of the filth of the Jews, and their uprooting from it, Allah willing”
“the establishment of the Caliphate, after the nation has been healed of its cancer – the Jews – Allah willing.”
-Fathi Hamad, 2018
That recent enough for you? Fathi is still kicking as well. It’s quite easy to find more.
Yeah thats indeed a bad statement. Looks like Hamas made him walk it back and he apologized.
Hamas official walks back call to Palestinian Diaspora to kill ‘Jews everywhere’
A senior Hamas official on Monday attempted to walk back his call for members of the Palestinian diaspora to kill Jews around the world, as the terrorist group distanced itself from his remarks.
He added: “Our resistance to this usurping entity will continue in all of its forms whether that is armed or popular peaceful struggle.”
It is a pretty pathetic indictment of Israeli leadership when Hamas has the more responsible rhetoric. I hope it’s not just them yelling at him for saying the quiet part out loud. My hope is Hamas can follow a similar trajectory as the IRA/Sinn Fein did in Northern Ireland, but I unfortunately don’t see that happening with Likud on the other side of negotiations
“Whoopsie! So sorry I called for a global genocide there. Never meant a word of it”
Oppressed people tend to conflate the attributes of their oppressors and generalize everyone with those attributes.
Slaves often started to hate every white person instead of just slave owners.
As israel constantly screams they represent all Jews, and commit all their crimes in the name of Judaism, some Palestinians (mistakenly) conflate the two.
Luckily Hamas as an organization does not and clearly separates the two. Hamas has also never murdered a Jew outside of israel. Because they do not target Jews. They target the people that colonize their land.
Unlike israel where half the cabinet screams they want to murder every Arab and Ethnically Cleanse their land.
Certainly not the views of some western kid who only cares after 7 decades because the internet told him to be outraged
Here’s a fun game: Ask people who shout “From the river to the sea” which river and which see are meant and what this statement implies. The results are unsurprising.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he’s not Palestinian.
I married a Jewish woman who told me she doesn’t know what that means. Cause she’s Canadian and has no interest in the politics of a country across the planet. So why people like you take it out on her, simply because of her heritage, I have no idea… Oh no wait I do, as a native I am well aware of your tactics.
That quote reminds me of another one I heard “from sea to shining sea” where you guys colonized, raped and killed us and took all our land from sea to shining sea
I’m not American. You criticized me for making an assumption about people by making an assumption about me.
Also, is it really that unreasonable to ask of people to look up what they are shouting? To have even a passing knowledge of what they decided to protest for or against?
A political organisation can have an armed wing but whatever.
Israel is a terrorist state
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Great news, too bad israel has zero interest in a Palestinian state nor peace. Israel wants to ethnically cleanse all Palestinians and expand their Lebensraum That much has been fully proven over the last six months.
With Biden sending 26 Billion dollars to reimburse all the costs of this Genocide, without strings attached, it’s clear that the path forward for israel is to now fully commit to their Gaza Holocaust.
The “genocide” would halt immediately if Hamas returned the hostages and surrendered themselves. Hamas has zero interest in that, and the Palestinians have zero interest in that.
No israel has only said they will do a 6 week temporary pause and then continue the Genocide your claim is false.
This article is more than 2 months old - Netanyahu rejects Gaza ceasefire deal and says victory is ‘within reach’
Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected the terms of a ceasefire in Gaza proposed by Hamas and rebuffed US pressure to move more quickly towards a mediated settlement to the war, saying there could be no solution to Israel’s security issues except “absolute victory” over the militant group.
Furthermore israel is currently also committing Genocide in the West Bank. Do you blame Hamas and hostages for that too?
I stand corrected. Makes sense if you’re close to wiping them out. Otherwise you go back to the previous situation.
Do you have evidence for a genocide in the West Bank? Thought not.
More than 2 months old
Yeah they’re real close. Just a few more years and they’ll get there.
Israel just committed Genocide in a hospital in north-Gaza which they claimed to have already conquered because Hamas popped up. So even the areas they claimed to have under control were not under control.
Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993 during Blinken visit
It must be difficult to stay in control with the tactics Hamas use, not caring at all about civilian lives, using human shields, suicide bombs, fighting from civilians buildings etc.
The IDF probably knows far more about that than we do
So you’re still defending IDF and israel now that all of the Hasbara got debunked.
So you’re still defending jihadists and their supporters
Wat?
The genocide has been on-going in slow motion for decades, so there’s not chance in hell that Israel would stop, no matter what Hamas does. It’s baked into the country’s political system: It can’t have a one-state solution and remain a Jewish ethno-state, and it can’t have a two-state solution because the settlers are a vital part of the governing coalition. The only solution that Israeli politics can allow is to remove the people of Palestine. I’m sure they’d be happy with ethnic cleansing, but no other country can practically take in that many refugees, so the final solution is to simply kill them, which the IDF has shown no hesitation to do.
Oct 7th would’ve never happened if israel didn’t treat the Palestinians like human animals. If your excuse they hide terrorists whats your excuse for how they treat Palestinians in the west Bank where hamas isn’t a thing?
ISF reported 305 shooting attacks committed in or emanating from the West Bank in 2022, more than triple the attacks (91) recorded in 2021. In press reports, Israeli officials described these incidents as terror attacks
Hamas may not be based in the West Bank but other Islamic terrorists certainly are, and Hamas is certainly widely supported there.
Where do you live? How would you treat neighbouring countries that rocket attacked you constantly and wanted you wiped out in the name of their religion?
If anything Israel showed significant restraint prior to October
come to another persons land
steal their land and homes
kill their children and rape their women
humiliate their people
surprised pickachu face when they get radicalized and fight back
I dont endorse the extreme actions of hamas or any other group. But lets get something straight are you saying that all the oppression Palestinians face can be explained away by extremeist groups? Do you reject all the accounts of human rights organizations which have documented the plight of the Palestinians? And do you condemn the actions of israel?
It’s a tragedy whats happening to civilians in Palestine. Hamas needs to be destroyed and I hope Israel can minimise further collateral damage. (Though it must be exceptionally difficult with the tactics Hamas use)
But I hold the jihadist organisation Hamas (that still has widespread support) fully responsible for this tragedy, as I would hold the Nazis responsible for German civilian deaths.
So why extend the destruction to hamas who commits extremists actions but not israel?
Hamas butchered innocent civilians. They’re ruthless and evil. The IDF is butchering innocent civilians. They’re also ruthless and evil. There’s no good side to this.
That’s a false equivalence. Sure, there are extremist actions which you can point to. But to completely omit that it was the Palestinians people which were expelled from their land and massacred is disingenuous.
The Palestinians pushed the Jews out before too. People have been fighting over the land for almost as long as people have been growing crops.
The Palestinians are the natives. Most have cannanite DNA. Palestinians aren’t just the Arabs/muslims but also include jews and Christians that have lived for as long. Jews who came from EU have no claim to the land
You say this as if the Jews weren’t expelled from their home and massacred.
The charter of Likud says
Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
so let’s see if Israel chooses security or expansion this time. Every other time they have chosen expansion and a Greater Israel, but hopefully they choose peace this time.
sounds reasonable but on the other hand I wouldn’t trust that terrorist dipshit a second. The Hamas does not care about Palestine or it’s people…
So what’s the downside? If they break their promise you just end up in the same place you’re already in. Are you afraid there might actually be peace?
Can indepent mean independent from Hamas (which was basically crafted by Israel)?
According to the definitions of the words yes it can
Pre-1948 borders are the real solution for the Palestinians to have their own place. I support pre-1948 borders versus everything we are seeing today. People are behaving exactly like the people they feared and despised the most. It’s weird, but so are they.
Pre-1948 as in going back to the borders of the one state Mandatory Palestine? Any solution that entails the destruction of the state of Israel is dead in the water for the international community.
What the official is proposing here (two states) would be about the only way to peace.
I would be happy with Palestinians having equality
