- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ca/post/20749204
Another positive step in the right direction for an organization rife with brokenness. There’s a lot I don’t like about the organization, but this is something a love–a scouting organization open to young women and the lgbtq community. The next step is being inclusive of nonreligious agnostic and atheist youth and leaders. As well as ending the cultural appropriation of Native American peoples.
May this organization continue to build up youth, never allow further violence against youth, and make amends for all the wrongs. There’s a lot of good that comes out of organizations like this and I won’t discount it even though it’s riddled with a dark history.
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Please do atheism and agnostics next. I finished all the way up to doing my eagle project, all I had left was to finish some paper work and I would have gotten my eagle. I quit right about then, because what was the point? They were just going to take it away from me later for not believing in some magic book, I wouldn’t be the first they did it too. Absolutely ridiculous.
Edit: Any magic book** they don’t even discriminate against other religions is the part that drives me even crazier. You just NEED to believe in one.
What? As a complete outsider (I’m from Sweden,
scouts isn’t a thing here) what does scouting have to do with religion? Why would they discriminate against atheists?I thought scouting was about natural sciences, and helping out in the local community? Which to me sounds pretty nice!
Edit: Scouts are a thing here in Sweden. Thank you for the corrections, I’m quite baffled I’ve managed to miss that.
BSA has everything to do with religion. It’s a part of their oath, and advancement requirements (duty to God).
The Scout Law - “A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and REVERANT.”
Also the scout oath: “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;…”
In Canada they added a second option. Old: “On my honour; I promise that I will do my best; To do my duty to God and the King;…” New: “On my honour; I promise that I will do my best; To respect my country and my beliefs;…”
At my eagle interview, they asked me which point I would take out of the scout oath, and I said, Reverent
You should have tried to sneak in “revenant” to see if it gave you the ability to raise the dead.
you know, Im not gonna fix that lol
You didn’t mess it up. It just made me laugh thinking of it happening. I may have been reading too many bad horror books lately.
For the scout law, reverant doesn’t have anything to do with God necessarily. It is usually used in reference to God, but it could be reverence of nature or other things.
Exactly what I did to get Eagle.
Ooh. I suppose this is the answer I was looking for, though it still strikes me as rather strange. Was scouts established a very long time ago and did the religious bit just kind of cling on? Is there any type of push for making it secular? Because what little I knew, learning about natural sciences, and getting hands-on experience in various situations, as well as helping out the local communtiy just strikes me as a very positive thing. Squeezing in religion among all that just feels so out of place and foreign to me. It’s like one of those “find the odd one out” situations.
A lot of people have mentioned that the reverence can be loosely defined and doesn’t necessarily specify a certain god, but also a lot of it depends, I’m sure, on which part of the country you are in, which organization charters for you, and the volunteers that are actually part of the organization. Many people have barely had to say what they are reverent to and move on.
In the US they never dropped the mandatory overtures to religiosity. In fact, there was a period in the 90s-early 2000s where one sizable religious group who had replaced their prior youth organization with the BSA got pretty involved at the national level to the detriment of the program as a whole. While it’s not really required in any real sense at the troop level, you do have to affirm a belief in some “higher power” as an adult volunteer. (I’m an Eagle Scout and now atheist)
In Sweden, the Svenska Scoutförbundet was an outgrowth from the original UK scouting movement, but I don’t know how big it was/is.
Oh, the Mormons were deep into Scouting well before the 90s, they just starting throwing their weight around as it became less popular to the general public and outside social pressures (i.e. not being dickbags) starting being voiced alongside the churchy bullshit.
What I don’t know is when they started directly paying a negotiated rate in dues straight to BSA. I do recall when I was a little LDS kid bringing my dollar a meeting or whatever for Cub Scouts, but by the time in was in Boy Scouts in junior High they’d stopped asking for that and someone told me the church handled it.
I know. It just seemed to me that their influence began to ramp up even more (perhaps that was just my local troop though) when the LDS Church started paying registrations and activities fees in the early 90s but it truthfully happened slowly like boiling a frog over a long time.
I read it as “a little LSD kid”.
You know, we were subject to a lot of hallucinations…
Because the US is never more than a couple of steps from a Christian fascist theocracy.
What? Sweden don’t have scouts? My daughter was on a scout camp there last year and I believe there were swedish scouts also.
Regardless, in Denmark we have a few scout organizations. One of them KFUM (which would translate to the same as YMCA) which is the christian boy’s scouting org, that also allows girls, and the similar one for girls that don’t allow boys. Both of them has Christianity as a pretty foundational thing and most of the clubhouses are in or near churches and they have church services on camps and shit. Then there’s DDS (dark blue uniforms) and they’re not connected to any faith, but are still committed to the “spiritual development” of the scout. However this can be done in other ways than inflicting religion on children. In 1973 they merged the boy and girl scouts, so it’s just one thing now. The yellow scouts branched from DDS in the 80’s, with a mission to go back to more traditional scouting values. Not sure what that means, but they’re a also non-religious and non-political organization.
Finally there’s some Danish Baptist scouts but I don’t know much about them other than they’re likely a more religious variant of KFUM, attached to another christian flavor.
What? Sweden don’t have scouts?
Actually we do! I was corrected on this by @[email protected], and looking it up myself they’re actually quite prolific. Going by their website they exist in 220 out of the 290 municipalities here in Sweden. Honestly I’m surprised I’ve never heard of them before. They even have a folk high school.
Same reason Alcoholics Anonymous requires you to put faith in a higher power.
What! That’s also so bizarre! Isn’t AA just group therapy? Why does that require a deity?
Because it’s manipulative and they only care about helping the “right” people.
Vi har eller har haft (jag är inte uppdaterad) PMU Scout, KFUM/KFUK-Scouter, NSF-scouter och Svenska Scoutförbundet på rak arm, så scouterna har ganska många förbund i Sverige dock
Är religion en stor del av våra scoutförbund också? Måste medge att jag är lite paff att jag har lyckats missa att scouterna finns i sverige, så tack för korrigeringen. Vi svenskar är verkligen tokiga i att grunda förbund, föreningar, och folkrörelser så det känns ju rätt rimligt att scouterna skulle finnas här också.
Väldigt många har kristen grund men som så många andra sammanhang är det väldigt bredd på hur fundamentalistiska de olika patrullerna är.
Har mött scouter som ser kristendom som centralt i scoutandet medans andra ser det som survival training för ungar eller förberedande inför FBU, lump eller liknande
Norwegian who was in “Speider’n”. Nobody here cared about the religious parts of it.
I love that they’re called Speider’n over there. I can see how that can be read as scouts, but in my head, “spejarna” sounds more like some sort of spy school organisation. I’m also baffled there’d be religious parts of it even in Norway. Wonder if the Swedish organisation has it too, their website at least highlights that they really value diversity, it’d be strange if they were anal about religion.
Even then, religion seems like such a strange and unrelated thing to chuck in there.
The three core principles of scouting are:
- Duty to God (adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom)
- Duty to others
- Duty to self
When asked where religion came into Scouting and Guiding, Baden-Powell replied “It does not come in at all. It is already there. It is a fundamental factor underlying Scouting and Guiding”. Source
So unfortunately removing religion from the scouting would remove one of the core principle of the movement, I don’t think it would anytime soon.
Which is a shame because I really enjoyed my time scouting, I think it was a great balance of fun, education and learning responsibilities. But the religion aspect of it make me seriously reconsider to send my kids to do it or not.
Because 'Merica!
Yeah religion is shoehorned into a lot of things here. Alcoholics anonymous is religion based which makes absolutely no sense to me. Going to AA and being force fed religious bullshit would make me want to drink more.
It was also forced into some kind of rehab my buddy had to go to (court ordered after being caught with weed years ago). He took WAY longer than he should’ve because he’s very stubborn, and said he doesn’t need god to not need vices. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I was in a similar boat. Luckily they didn’t ask me if I believed in god during the actual board of review, so I got my eagle in the end.
Still a super shitty aspect of scouts.
I’m really sorry to hear this. One shouldn’t have to lie about this, but should be allowed to not practice any particular faith. It’s honestly one of the most frustrating elements for myself among the scouts.
This is one of the reasons why I have embraced my own magical book about my own magical being of my own making. When conversations inevitably go towards religion, I sometimes like to express my lack of faith by describing my mystical faith in the Cabra Cosmica. Yep, I’ve got mythos down and everything. Ironically, I really enjoy this form of make-believe faith. 😁
Please allow me to introduce you with a fantastic stained glass depiction:
if you dont want to DIY it the Satanic Temple, Discordianism, Secular Paganism and The Flying Spaghetti monster all “exist.”
Ramen to all.
Forgot the Jedi Order
Is that a nativity scene with spaghetti in the manger?
Don’t forget the Invisible Pink Unicorn (IPU)!
Where can I read lore?
What are the tenets of Cabra? How do you know its real? (I know its not but I love invented faiths)
The tenants are very much in kind with those of secular humanism. And the Cabra Cosmica is as real as I wish it to be, which is both simultaneously very real and very not.
I often give thanks for my good fortune to the Cabra Cosmica as I do the Cosmos itself. I just wish to be thankful towards a thing at times and it can help to personify it. I mean, I did it most of my life to another false deity. Why not any other.
I know the Cosmos. I exist within it. Science describes it and defines its laws. Sometimes I give it a face. And sometimes that is the Cabra Cosmica.
I love it! Thanks for sharing :^)
I just wish to be thankful towards a thing at times and it can help to personify it.
That aspect reminds me of the Shinto belief that everyday objects have little spirits in them. I don’t believe in spirits, but I can see how this could be an interesting or useful mental exercise.
Best of luck with your religion. Have you fought any holy wars yet?
The only holy wars fought thus far involve conflicts over the correct installation of toilet paper rolls. And there is a right way.
Some things are worth dying for.
There definitely is a right way. I hope your faith is on the right side…
ANY religion will do? As a ordained dudeist priest, I say you should give it a go. Just be chill about it.
Would they have accepted The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Would they have accepted The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Probably. Scouting America has been openly Deist for a long time and there is an official “Event” for Christians, Muslims, and Jews. So at least at the national level they don’t seem to care what Deity you jam too as long as you have one.
I think I read freemasons were like that. Didn’t care what you believed in as long as it was something bigger than yourself.
Yes, I did this for my Eagle.
I just didn’t mention my beliefs. I think I was asked vaguely about it and I vaguely answered, but if you’re still able to I’d say to do it. Having the eagle scout behind you can open some doors. It can’t hurt.
I was in a Mormon troop, and went through with it, though only by the skin of my teeth and my dad’s incessant badgering. 17.75 years old would have been right about the time I was muscling up the courage to go openly agnostic. They don’t exactly follow up.
Glad to hear about this change. I’m now somewhat less ashamed to mention it. I did the most cliche “picnic tables for the elementary school” project ever. I really didn’t give a shit about advancing, but a certain ex-marine father got a bug up his ass and decided he would be the troop leader until I finished the damn thing.
Sorry you didn’t get there, but you didn’t miss a once in a lifetime event either. Religion has no place in society or scouts. One day it will be gone and kids like you won’t have to deal with that.
No. I did mine and said I wasn’t religious, but I was spiritual and meditated. That’s all was needed.
Spiritual and meditated would fall into that some kind of belief thing for me. Saying I was spiritual in any facet would still be me lying to them, and I was just as stubborn then as I am now haha
TLDR: Scouts are about nature AND religion. Not just nature. There are many organisations that are just about nature. Feel free to join them.
Why should they not discriminate against atheists?
For real. Just because you believe it is about nature? Scout organizations are clearly about nature AND religion.
Join an organization that is just about nature.
In my country we have two strong scout organisations. One religious and one not. Religious one focused more on a personal growth and the other one more on nature skills. (Well some of my friends in religious one were atheists they just had to practice the same activities)
Churches do not accept atheists. Chess clubs discriminate against non chess players.
But if they would include non chess players, chess clubs would have no meaning.
One can see you do not hold religions in high regard, but please allow people with the same interests and believes to meet and express themselves together in a peaceful manner.
That might work in your country, but there isn’t some non-religious version here that’s popular. They also don’t advertise as religious at all, just the nature aspects. Religion wasn’t mentioned in the organization a single time until I was already in for… 6 or 7 years maybe?
What? Weird! This is against what this organization is supposed to represent. Sad.
That’s not true. You do not have to believe in a magic book. The BSA requires a belief in God, but does not define god. It requires religion, but does not define religion.
Why is the sky blue?
If you answer “because God wanted it to be blue”, you’re good.
If you mention something about physics and Rayleigh Scattering, you’re good.
If you answer “I don’t know. I’ve never really thought about it”, you’re good.
Even If you answer “who cares?”, you’re good.
The only surefire way to answer this question “wrong” is something like “it’s not blue because of God, because there is no god.” While that statement is true (at least for any supernatural definition of “god”), you’re not being asked what you don’t believe, but what you do. You’re not being asked to rebut someone else’s belief; you’re being asked about your own.
Do you hold anything to be “true”? Are the laws of thermodynamics obeyed in your household? Maybe Descartes’s First Principle is more to your philosophical liking: “I think, therefore I am”. 1+1=2?
The sum of everything you hold to be true, BSA refers to as your “god”.
I know people who have been kicked out for being an atheist, they didn’t really care to ask any of the questions you’re suggesting at the time. All they asked was if he believed in any higher powers and he said no. I wouldn’t say he was wrong, I don’t think science is a “higher power”.
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Can’t wait for the “the scouts are failing due to being woke” crowd instead of the real reason, all the sexual abuse cases.
I mean I had, and have met plenty of others who also had, the opposite experience.
I say this as a pretty vanilla person, not gay, not trans… not even vegetarian.
The Boy Scouts absolutely failed me as child interested in the outdoors because the troop was led by a bunch of adult men pretending their goal was to train a small military unit out of a Lutheran church on Thursdays.
I have met so many Eagle Scouts who were encouraged and taught outdoor skills… actually taught survival skills! Not verbally threatened by some 55 year old polish dude suffering narcissistic injuries…
not gay, not trans… not even vegetarian.
how unfortunate
Ha right? Call me boring… but that was not the scoutmaster’s problem.
They’ve been letting girls join for a while, but that won’t stop the reactionary crowd from freaking out. Also, they put a huge emphasis these days on preventing bad touch, for obvious reasons.
They have but the stigma sticks. For good reasons.
Good on them for cutting down on the pedophilia, it’s always hard to kick a habit
As a former boy scout, hell yeah.
Is an ex-scout a dead scout like the Marines? :-D - Also a BS!
I have the Scouts to thank for turning me into first an atheist, then through their example of militant protheism, I became a militant antitheist and a secular prohumanist.
I didn’t find my spirituality because of them, I found it in spite of them.
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Yes. I do not see any contradiction. My view of spirituality is a broad and subjective concept that relates to my search for meaning, purpose, and connection to something greater than myself—my role in the universe, and the universe’s role in my existence. Religion has nothing to do with that.
I practice meditation, mindfulness, and self-reflection in a way that does not require attachment to belief of supernatural phenomena.
Can an atheist be “spiritual” ?
I think probably yes.
Who doesn’t believe in liquor (spirits)? Liquor provably exists.
This post is a cesspool of hateful comments from anti-establishment people with zero actual experience with scouting. Scouts is a wonderful organization, full of volunteers who give children - especially disadvantaged children - knowledge, life experience, and a general sense of accomplishment and competence. My involvement with scouting was the best thing about my entire childhood.
There is a lot great about this article, but it’s hard to keep completely positive in light of the many horrific abuses that have taken place within the Scouts. Youth organizations and religious organizations are highly susceptible to this. Scouting America has gone to great lengths to reform and protect youth today, but the stain will be there for a long time especially since abuse still happens (this just reported on days ago).
To be frank, it’s a tense thing for me. Scouts was great for me in my youth and today as I’m involved with my children. However, I’m always on guard and paying attention. Whether it’s scouts or some other youth organization, they are vulnerable. I teach my kids to pay attention and remain ever vigilant. As great as such organisations can be, they are very very susceptible to predators.
There is a risk of abuse in life. Most children are abused by family or family friends. Unfortunately we can’t stop all of the monsters, but at least Scouts tries, and has some of the most proactive child protection policies in the country. I had abusive teachers when I was a kid that physically assaulted me, that doesn’t mean we condemn all elementary schools. School was still a vibrant part of my childhood. I’m not trying to diminish the suffering of children who suffered abuse in a place that was supposed to provide them safety, but we don’t need to bring it up literally every single time scouting is mentioned. Most of the people on this comment chain are doing it because they get some sort of sadistic pleasure from diminishing the merits of helpful institutions like this, not because they have any sort of real concern for the children.
Just to be clear, the Boy Scouts actively protected abusers to protect their reputation, and went out of their way to NOT PREVENT ABUSERS FROM JUST BECOMING SCOUT MASTERS AGAIN SOMEWHERE ELSE.
This wasn’t just a ‘bad luck’ sort of thing, the Boy Scouts were actively HELPING abusers because they didn’t want the bad publicity.
New policies do as much as they can to protect the kids at least. Not an excuse for the past, but something.
Scouting has a dark history, but I also made lifelong friendships and learned a lot of cool stuff through Scouting. I only learned of the history more recently… No abuse locally or in any of the troops we associated with when I was younger.
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This is great, as I understand it from my GS friends girl scouts was basically a glorified cookie sales rep position
Then fix the Girl Scouts…
But there’s this perfectly good organization already built that the girl scouts was meant to emulate in the first place. Why not just… Allow girls?
Also, this is the boy scouts of America’s decision to make. This is a positive change they can make in their organization. They can’t do anything to fix the girl scouts because that’s someone else
They had a shitty scout leader. My mother was a scout leader for years for the Girl Scouts and Cub Scouts, and she took the positions because she wasn’t going to have her kids miss out on camping, archery, fishing, etc. that the scouts are famous for teaching young kids.
I realize that the good scout leaders are few and far between. They have to care about the kids, or it ends up turning into arts and crafts, with a seasonal sales period for cookies or overpriced popcorn.
They have to care about the kids and also have the time, capacity, and energy to put into making scouting enjoyable. If they don’t have the support of other volunteers it makes it exponentially harder too.
“More Inclusive Scouting America” is a bit wordy but I guess has a nice ring to it.
“M’ISA like it.” - Jar-Jar
This is good. Scouting (in developed countries) in Europe is one and same for boys, nonbinaries and girls, mainly non-theistic (apart from the obvious theistic groups) and focused on making sure health, hygiene, happiness and life skills are taught and practiced. Girls, nonbinaries and boys coexist, do the same tasks, chores and sleep in the same tents.
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They’re two completely separate organizations. The girl scouts can do what they want.
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If they are both gender neutral then it seems a bit silly to have two
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Are they intending to stay that way?
Oh, also, the Boy Scouts have been letting in girls for a while now. I would assume they get separate tents but I don’t actually know because I’m not actually involved with the organization. But, girl members have been fairly common and this is really just a name change.
Not only separate tents, but the boys’ tents are grouped together and girl tents are grouped together with the adult tents in between those two groups. There also must be at least 1 adult of each sex.
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Why do some people get so upset if women try to exclude men?
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Women can join the misogynist club but men aren’t allowed to join the misanderist club. Because all men are sexual deviants or something.
Ask yourself why some people get so upset if men try to exclude women. The answer is mostly the same.
I thought we weren’t supposed to do stuff like that anymore
Right. Why can’t they all love sexism?
The Girl Scouts started accepting boys years beforethe boy scouts started accepting girls around106 years ago.They had boys and girls in different tents to prevent them from having sex. I’m not sure how they deal with lgbt scouts.
Edit: Boys Scouts first allowed girls into Venturing, a program for those 14-21st birthday. Girls were allowed into Boy Scout troops and in Cub Scouts in 2018.
Cis boys aren’t allowed in Girl Scouts.
The Girl Scouts absolutely do not accept cis boys.
I thought I had remembered them allowing some boys. I know of a male girl scout leader.
I’ll edit that part.
They accept trans boys, trans girls, and nonbinay kids. So they do allow some boys. Just not cis boys.
I think they allow male leaders because it’s hard to get people to volunteer for that position without even limiting to one gender.
In what universe are prepubescent children having sex?
Boy Scouts can join a troop at 10 and age out at 18. It’s not uncommon for high schoolers to begin experimenting sexually.
Further there’s also a branch of Boy Scouts called Venturing that is co-ed where participants age out at 21.
The Lemmy universe.
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Teenagers are full of hormones through puberty and many begin experimenting. Boy Scouts don’t age out until they are 18.
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Cub Scouts is age 5-10 Boy Scouts age 10-18th birthday Venturing 14-21st birthday
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This is not uplifting. Boys benefit from single-sex spaces just like girls do.
There’s separate boy and girl troops, it’s been that way for a few years.
Summer camp got slightly cooler.
Boys have tons and tons and tons of other male-only and male-dominated groups to choose from, they’ll live
I’ll bite - give me some examples of real-life male-only spaces that aren’t sports related.
Like what?
Do they really tho?
Rolls off the tongue a lot better than “traditionally masculine hobbies gang”.
Yeah, sewing and cooking are traditionally masculine hobbies. /s
A lot of the stuff they do are male focused, but they teach a lot of skills that are useful to life that aren’t masculine. That’s why I much prefer the BSA to the Girl Scouts. Girl Scouts seems to be purely feminine. It’s all about baking and crap. BSA (or the new acronym) is about developing a wide variety of skills, and it covers damn near everything. You won’t learn all of them, but you are required to earn cooking at least.
I know I did it. There are a lot more badges about camping and birdhouses and derby cars and engineering than cooking and sewing and crochet. I mean yeah there’s some there, but zi het that’s a victory from this same discussion 50 years ago.
Uhm… Why not just Souts of America?
Not all of us live in the Sout. Many youts live in duh Nort, too.
Did you say Nort?
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With the abbreviation of SA. Idk how they overlooked this.
The next step is being inclusive of nonreligious agnostic and atheist youth and leaders.
Technically, they already are, with the possible exception of nihilists.
The scout oath does include a “duty to god”, but they do not define what they mean by “god” or “religion”. Instead, they explicitly leave those definitions to the scout.
The only requirements they actually have on the subject of religion is 1. tolerance for the beliefs of others, and 2. “reverence” for your own creed.
Under their policy, “the laws of thermodynamics” is a perfectly acceptable “god”, and “In this house, we respect the laws of thermodynamics” is a perfectly acceptable “religious” creed.
“The environment” is a perfectly acceptable god, and “we must preserve and protect our environment” is another perfectly acceptable “religious” creed.
I readily concede that their policy is needlessly complex. It would be easier to just drop the “duty to god” and “reverent” requirements entirely.
I agree with most of your points, but I don’t know, I think I would keep the reverent in the scout law, even if the oath changed.
As a (nonreligious) scout, I always interpreted the reverent more as being respectful than actually religious. More like respecting the beliefs of others, or being respectful and solemn in a cemetery or a war memorial.
There’s nothing else in the scout law that conveys that feeling, and I feel like the law would be missing it if it were dropped.
Treating the oath as something that can be worked around using wordplay does nothing but make a complete mockery of the oath. We had this debate a over century ago when trial witnesses were required to swear an oath to god and atheists were prevented from being witnesses. The solution wasn’t to allow atheists to use god as a metaphor for reality, but to remove the requirement for a belief in a god.
The members of the organization decide how changes will be implemented. The members (citizens) of the US decided to remove the references. The members of scouting decided to keep the vague concept of religion, and leave it to the individual to determine specifics.
It is not “mockery” to understand that the religious aspects of scouting are defined by the scout and the scout’s family, rather than BSA or a church.
You are suggesting that it is acceptable to for scouts that do not believe in any god to lie and say that they do. Dishonesty goes against the scout principles.
Dishonesty does, indeed, go against scouting principles, but I am in no way being dishonest.
What I am doing is explicitly following BSA policy, both the letter of the policy, and the intent of the policy. That policy was specifically established to be inclusive on the basis of religion. Scouting follows it’s own law: it is “Reverent”, which includes a requirement to respect the beliefs of others.
Buddhism does not include a concept of a deity, yet Buddhist youths are welcomed within the BSA. The “God” that BSA refers to can be found within a religion that does not include the concepts of a god.
Unitarian Universalism does not require congregants to have a belief in a supernatural entity. While some UU members are theistic, there are many atheists and agnostics among them.
I mention UU specifically, because the BSA entered into an MOU with the UUA on the subject. UU organizations are welcomed to charter Scouting programs, without requiring their atheist members to abstain. The “God” that BSA refers to can be found within an atheistic Unitarian.
If I were asked how I, personally, perform my “duty to god” I would say that within my worldview, the concept that BSA refers to as “god” is usually thought of as “consciousness”. My duty is to utilize that consciousness in my daily life, to experience, to learn, to discover, to teach. I would recount one of my memorable experiences to my inquisitor, and thank them not just for asking, but for giving me an opportunity to perform that duty.
BSA policy charges me with defining “god” for myself, and nothing in BSA policy prohibits me from appointing “consciousness” to that role. I am, indeed, an atheist as the term is normally used, but my belief system is compatible with Scouting.
The UU memorandum of understanding is irrelevant. I am not a member, and I think most atheists are not either. People should not be required to join a church or a religion to join the scouts.
I don’t believe in any gods, and would never say that something was a god if I did not think it was a god. Consciousness is not a god, nature is not a god, the laws of thermodynamics are not gods. Labeling these things gods only serves to imply some sort of mystery thing about it when there is none, I would consider it lying to do so. Do you think they would accept me? I don’t.
If the religious aspects were truly left to the scouts and their families, outright atheists would simply be accepted, and there would not need to be a memorandum of understanding so that a specific organization could participate, because they would have simply been accept beforehand.
The UU MOU demonstrates that “atheism” is not inherently incompatible with scouting. The memorandum does not mean that if you want to be an atheist and a scout, you must also be a Unitarian. It means that the duty required of the oath can be fulfilled by an atheist. How is it possible to fulfill a duty to “god” without believing in “god”? That MOU serves to clarify the distinction between what the BSA refers to as “god” and what other entities refer to as “god”. It demonstrates that the BSA uses a non-standard definition of “god”, and that we need to understand what they mean by that term before we can make a meaningful judgment of their policies.
I don’t believe in any gods, and would never say that something was a god if I did not think it was a god. Consciousness is not a god, nature is not a god, the laws of thermodynamics are not gods. Labeling these things gods only serves to imply some sort of mystery thing about it when there is none, I would consider it lying to do so.
I consider it lying for me to deliberately substitute my meaning of a word for the meaning intended by another. What you (and I) would and would not call “god” is completely irrelevant to how BSA uses the word. BSA does not hold to the idea that “thermodynamics cannot be god”. Quite the contrary. If a scout wishes to define god as thermodynamics, BSA accepts it.
BSA does not hold to the idea that “consciousness cannot be god.” If a scout wishes to claim consciousness as god, BSA accepts it.
BSA does not hold to the idea that “God can only be a supernatural entity” or that “God refers to a sense of mystery”. If a scout does not wish to declare God to be a supernatural entity, BSA does not force them. If a scout determines that a sense of mystery is not necessary, BSA does not require it.
BSA developed their policies using one definition. You are using a completely different, contradictory definition. Your conclusions do not at all reflect their actual intent. It is intellectually dishonest for you to impose your meaning in place of their intended meaning.
The UU MOU demonstrates that they still discriminate. Any Christian denomination is automatically acceptable, for atheists they have to pick and choose saying “you’re one of the good ones”.
If a scout wishes to define god as thermodynamics, BSA accepts it.
OK, that’s irrelevant. Those were clearly MY opinions, a demonstration of how I refuse to label things with the term ‘god’, followed by the rationale for me doing so.
You are using a completely different, contradictory definition.
I am not using any definition of ‘god’, I am just saying that it has a definition, not any specific one just some definition, otherwise the term would be meaningless. And if I were to label anything ‘god’ it would be because that thing fulfilled the requirements for this unspecified definition. If I were to label something as ‘red’ it would be because it fulfills the requirements to be called ‘red’. If it did not fit the definition of ‘red’ I would not apply the label ‘red’. In the same way, I would not label something as ‘god’ unless I thought the label fit. If I were to label something as ‘god’ it would imply that there was something different about it when compared to something that I would refuse to apply the term ‘god’ to. And there is nothing that I would be willing to label ‘god’.
It’s a pity that I’m still ineligible to work with the Scouts. I have a lot of happy memories from my decade in Scouting, and still have a significant interest in many of the things that I did while I was in the organization. Unfortunately, my religion is, shall we say, disfavored within Scouting, and is not permitted for either youth or leaders.
Religion, while required, plays a very minor role practically speaking. Even your “disfavored” beliefs should be permitted.
My “belief” in my own imaginary mythos is enough to satiate the non-sectarian requirements thus far. I simply don’t speak about it any detail.
This thread has reminded me that talking to my kids about this is important because my eldest, practically speaking, is agnostic. I don’t want them to feel uncomfortable lying for Eagle, so I want to share some options. There’s a lot of ways for a scout to be reverent without actually believing in a deity.
Here’s a little more on the requirement: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/10/03/belief-in-god-scouting/
I can’t wait until this “integral” part of the program is made a thing of the past.
I am a Satanist; although it’s religious, it’s also explicitly atheistic. Per your blog, “By signing the membership application, each leader has already acknowledged the Declaration of Religious Principle which affirms a belief in God […]”. While I could quite truthfully say that I acknowledge myself as my own god, I do not believe in God, and I can not honestly affirm that I believe a belief in any external god to be necessary in order to be a good person and citizen.
“A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent”; I can’t be trustworthy without also being wholly honest, including that I don’t believe in an external god. “On my honor, I will do my best, to god and my country, to uphold the Scout law, and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight”; how could I say this without being deceptive? I know that the ‘god’ they’re referring to is a deity outside of myself, and it wouldn’t be moral for me to swear to this without also believing in some form of external deity.
I hear you and applaud the conviction.
I feel very okay acknowledging myself as my own god and yourself as yours. It’s certainly a reinterpretation, but I’m okay with that for the sake of offering this to my own children. Children hardly know what it means to believe in a god as it is, so I figure why complicate it. I love to teach them what it means to be reverent in a way that is different from the status quo.
In the end though, my preference is that atheists are permitted as they are. Period. Full stop.
We can teach reverence without an external deity.
Also while it may be true in some parts of the country, I cannot imagine the other volunteers will ban you for something as semantic as the “wrong” religion or a different definition of reverence.
I know that the ‘god’ they’re referring to is a deity outside of myself
That is false. They are very explicit in their policies that they do not define “god”. Their policies leave the definition of “god” to be determined by the scout, not the scouting organization.
The “duty to god” requirement charges you with defining your own god. You are not beholden to anyone else’s definition.
They do not define god, but they do constantly refer to God (capital G), and a requirement for faith. Faith ends up being extremely hard to define, but from the context in which it is used here, it strongly implies that faith requires a belief in an external deity.
The simple way to answer this question would be to simply ask; I can write to the Scout board, say that I’m an Eagle Scout–which is true–that I’ve had a change of faith since I was in Scouting, and that I now identify as an atheistic Satanist, and ask if I am eligible to work in adult leadership roles. Which I am doing right now.
Your link is to a site hosted by andividual scouter. It is not the policy of the organization.
Faith ends up being extremely hard to define
Correct. Which is why the organization does not actually define it. They explicitly state that it is to be defined by the scout and the scout’s family.
I, too, am an atheist, by the usual definition of the term: I believe in no supernatural deities. However, with BSA’s definition, “atheism” is only possible if I believe in nothing whatsoever. Some extreme form of nihilism. With BSA’s definition, I do, indeed, have a “god”: my own consciousness. I do, indeed, have a “religious” creed: logic, rationality, the pursuit of understanding reality. I wouldn’t normally refer to these as “god” or “religion”, but they serve the same purposes for me that gods and religions serve to theists.
and ask if I am eligible
That is not a question they can answer. They charge you with defining your “god”. You are the authority on the subject, not them.
If asked how I fulfill my “duty to God”, I would respond that within my worldview, the concept that BSA refers to as “god” is more commonly described as “consciousness”. I might mention that within my worldview, it is considered “impolite” and “imprecise” to refer to consciousness as “god”, but that I recognize there is no malicious intent behind the BSA usage of the term. If I got any pushback on that, I would remind the inquisitor that my family and I are charged with defining God and religion. I would further remind them that a scout is reverent, and reverent includes tolerance and respect of the beliefs of others.
I would explain that I fulfill my duty by experiencing, learning, teaching. I would describe a memorable experience, what I learned from that experience, and thank the inquisitor for giving me the opportunity to fulfill my “religious” duty by sharing the knowledge I had gleaned.
If I recall correctly, (it’s hard to look at previous messages with this app), you said you could truthfully describe yourself as your own god. Do you exist? If you exist and you can describe yourself as your own god, is it still reasonable to call yourself an atheist?
If you are your own god, what duty do you have to yourself? Are you fulfilling that duty? Are you reverent? If you can answer those questions (and it doesn’t really matter what the answers are), you are eligible to be a scout.
When your religion is defined by denial and opposition to all other religions, then it probably isn’t welcome where religious tolerance is a requirement.
Sorry, are you talking about Christianity?
Or were you talking about Islam?
Oh, wait, no, probably Hinduism.
Nah, surely Mormonism.
No I mean the literal purpose of Satanism is to oppose religion and particularly Christianity. That’s why it’s named after the embodiment of evil according to Christianity. It’s deliberately antagonistic. That’s not at all the same as believing that yours is the only true religion.
Goodness. You don’t really know a lot about Satanism, do you?
I don’t oppose religion, as long as religion stays in it’s own lane. As long as religion is personal, and not forced on other people, I simply don’t care; it’s literally not my problem, nor is it my job to ‘convert’ other people. If you’re happy being e.g. Catholic, that’s fine.
…Until you try to force me to obey the dictates of your religion because you can’t tell the difference between civil society and your religion.
Look, it doesn’t matter what you claim to be about if the name you choose is screaming something different. It’s like if you opened a restaurant called Hitler was right, and then acted surprised when people called you a Nazi. You can tell everyone that Jews are welcome, but nobody will believe you.
and yet my trans brother still isn’t allowed to join
Afaik, BSA has accepted trans boys since 2017.
The organization as a whole, yes. But some individual troops are still run by bigots that haven’t gotten the message yet.
I’d say fight it, because it can be won. Then again, I’d rather my child be a part of a troop that’s welcoming and safe. It’s hard to be a trailblazer.
There’s a lot of reasons to shop around with different troops. This reason is particularly important.
As we know though, trans youth have it particularly bad from every direction right now. 😖
Yeah, if you are looking for a troop for your kid, avoid the Mormon ones. And the boring ones who don’t go anywhere fun. And the “tough” ones with strict parents.
Remember that you can always just go to another one. And when you first get there, they will be on their best behavior. So if you don’t like what you see at the first meeting it will probably get worse.
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The most effective (though slightly petty) move would be to fight it until they are forced to accept you and then leave immediately.
why would you fight for someone that hates you? you don’t want to be in that group anyway.
I would absolutely report it. They can more than likely lose their affiliation entirely for not following rules
K
yes
It’s a risk with the autonomous Troop structure. You agree to follow BSA guidelines, but there’s a huge gap for individual Troop choice. Technically, atheists aren’t allowed in Scouts, but most Troops ignore that requirement.
