Windows 10 EoL is fast approaching, so I thought I’d give Linux a try on some equipment that won’t be able to upgrade to Windows 11. I wanted to see if I will be able to recommend an option to anyone that asks me what they should do with their old PC.
Many years ago I switched to Gentoo Linux to get through collage. I was very anti-MS at the time. I also currently interact with Linux systems regularly although they don’t have a DE and aren’t for general workstation use.
Ubuntu: easy install. Working desktop. Had issues with getting GPU drivers. App Store had apps that would install but not work. The App Store itself kept failing to update itself with an error that it was still running. It couldn’t clear this hurdle after a reboot so I finally killed the process and manually updated from terminal. Overall, can’t recommend this to a normal user.
Mint: easy install. Switching to nvidia drivers worked without issue. App Store had issues with installing some apps due to missing dependencies that it couldn’t install. Some popular apps would install but wouldn’t run. Shutting the laptop closed results in a prompt to shutdown, but never really shuts off. Update process asks me to pick a fast source (why can’t it do this itself?)
Both: installing apps outside of their respective stores is an adventure in terminal instead of a GUI double-click. Secure boot issues. Constant prompt for password instead of a simple PIN or other form of identity verification.
Search results for basic operations require understanding that what works for Ubuntu might not work for Mint.
While I personally could work with either, I don’t see Linux taking any market share from MS or Apple when windows 10 is retired.
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I’m someone who grew up on Windows but switched to Linux and holy shit was it so much nicer. I don’t know if Windows massively improved or if people are just incapable of comparing something new with something they already know. Because Windows is hard.
99/100 basic users need someone to unfuck their windows install after what, one, two years?
Every time you need to do something non standard you’re basically going from training wheels to “good luck, deputy sysadmin.”
Broken registry. Orphaned cruft.
Malware, spyware.
Maybe 10-12 years ago. I have provided friends and family with tech support for a long time (20+ years) and I’d say I haven’t had any relatives call me for support in 5 years.
It’s part user education, but mostly that the OS is generally so stable and solid that it isn’t necessary anymore.
I personally have two desktops, one windows and one Ubuntu. I use them both equally and have more issues with Ubuntu acting randomly funky than Windows 11.
- Ubuntu – random funkiness
- Windows – malicious funkiness
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I have provided friends and family with tech support for a long time (20+ years) and I’d say I haven’t had any relatives call me for support in 5 years
That’s cause they don’t use their computer anymore. They do everything on their phones now.
To be fair, troubleshooting windows so I could play games in the 90s led to me becoming an actual sysadmin, so that’s cool I guess
Ah, the days of manually editing files in DOS so you could run Warcraft. No thank you.
But you have to admit warcraft was amazing and worth the hassle :)
Touche, mon frere. Touche.
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Same here, but DOS.
I don’t know what version of XP you’re using, but this is not true in the last decade. The only times I reinstalled Windows was when I bought a bigger SSDs to my notebooks and figure to just do a clean one and play with the partitions a little. I never, ever, needed to reinstall because something was broken, even after updates. And my company still have notebooks running for about 6 years without needing a reinstall, which would be a huge headache.
Now on Ubuntu, Fedora, elementaryOS… I always had those implode for one reason or another, usually thanks to system updates. I got my DE dead by installing an app. I got it locked by uninstalling an app. And I wasn’t even doing fancy stuff like using the terminal to hack stuff.
I really wish I could migrate from Windows, specially now withbthis AI crap. The truth is, Linux is an usability nightmare and it still has a long, long way to go. Even macOS is better, and that’s saying a lot.
Windows is fairly stable now. I have been averaging about 4 years an install and I have only been reinstalling due to new disks.
My windows install (unfortunately 11 now because I needed nested virtualization on AMD) was first installed in 2016.
Since then I have switched the boot drive twice, the processor and motherboard once, the GPU once, upgraded and installed non OS disks many times.
I have not reinstalled it a single time. I do know quite a bit about windows so I have been able to fix every issue so far (except a new weird one that’s annoying but not game breaking), but still it shows how stable Windows is these days. Updates have not broken anything that I can think of (except that annoying update that everyone got in February or something, which doesn’t work because it tried to do something which doesn’t work.).
And yes I know I should reinstall but that would be so much work.
My experience mirrors yours. Back in the day I used to have to do clean installs all the time, but I haven’t for years now, and I’ve swapped lots of hardware and disks, etc. it’s fairly problem free for the most part, except for the creeping sense of doom I feel with each new piece of adware they cram into the user interface. I am definitely planning on switching to Linux, I have an Ubuntu server and have installed a flash drive version of arch on my laptop before, but I just haven’t hit a wall yet that makes all the work of completely switching necessary yet.
It’s so wild that I have seen like, four Linux people in my lifetime admit the simple truth that every version of Windows and macOS, iOS and Android since conception have been geared progressively more toward being absolutely friendly to users that are dumb as rocks—in a good way—where Linux has absolutely not. And that this barrier is 100% of the difference between proprietary desktop environments and Linux. Linux is majority developed for power users, full stop. The closest I have seen to the contrary is like, maybe the Adwaita devs, and unfortunately they don’t have the reach to apply their knowledge to essential UX stuff like app installation or hardware compatibility.
This is why I get so frustrated with the “just switch to Linux, loser” crowd, because it’s so utterly disconnected with the reality that most people do not have the resources to invest in any kind of learning curve. It has to be intuitive and accessible from the start. Web developers understand this. MS, Apple, and Google get it. Like, even people who design public transportation understand that they must cater to a user who is drunk and not fluent in the local language when designing signage and systems. Why doesn’t the vast majority of the Linux community get it?
100% agree. I hope Cosmic DE can remedy some of those learning curves, but that is a tough ask from a desktop environment .
I mean heck, it took me several months to fully get accustomed to OS X Tiger when I switched from Win XP back in the day.
interesting, TIL! i will definitely look into this. but yeah it does speak volumes that this isn’t even in alpha yet and it’s 2024. specifically hoping the app store and the bluetooth/audio UX are watertight because those are the primary weak points i see for non-power users in GNOME and such.
also doesn’t exactly exude faith that one of their biggest marketing points is… yet another terminal with gpu rendering. hot take: the point of the desktop metaphor has been to bring the user beyond the terminal since 1970. expecting the average user to go back to relying on text commands for daily use should not be on the table if you are developing a desktop environment.
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Because a lot of them are the kind of computer geek who makes “normies” hate computer geeks. You know the type: condescending, arrogant, passive aggressive, a mild bully. The kind that enjoys making other people who don’t share their hobby feel stupid. I think they should be forced to work in an auto shop, or a house framing crew, or a plumber crew, and see what it feels like to be made to feel stupid on a skill you have no experience in. I worked IT, and these guys are repulsive, especially while they’re mocking and belittling the elderly, or the mentally disabled.
the *nix community has a toxicity problem, absolutely. it’s tradition at this point, a culture stemming back to rtfm. i highly applaud those voices in the FOSS movement that break this stereotype and embrace the user without question.
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I’m the same, I want everyone to be happy, and I like to see people win. I despise bullies of any type.
Linux is stuck in the I had to do X so you have to do it too mindset. They are generally opposed to user friendly options if it means removing pain they feel is core to the experience.
Nice rant. Doesn’t reflect anything I experienced. From all linux users I know just one is a nerd. And he doesn’t develop or interact with any community.
Stop ranting about your desired workflow and start implementing it if in desperate need.
I agree in regards to a through thought ux though!
Downvotes but non formulated opinion. Elaborate please. I strongly believe I am defending the correct intention.
downvotes because your comment was insulting, rude and bossy. it is very possible to defend the correct intention without being unkind and counterproductive.
You are implying quite a few things here.
And apparently under the assumption that you represent the majority/common sense - again.
mean comment - again, blocked lol
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big fax
careful with w7. not a professional but at least make sure you get a solid up to date antivirus and avoid the sketchier parts of the web :)
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Is it still an unpopular opinion if I just hate that I agree with you?
(Writing this from my linux gaming desktop. I don’t use arch btw)
Yes we can be unpopular together.
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I also currently interact with Linux systems regularly although they don’t have a DE and aren’t for general workstation use.
🚩🚩🚩
A line used by every concern troll.
Philosophy time: Is it unpopular opinion if 90% of PC users agree with you?
On the other hand, this is an unpopular opinion on Lemmy
Which is why I posted it. I was honestly hoping to be proven wrong, but instead I got a lot of victim blaming. Even Linux users aren’t ready to accept mainstream people coming from Windows.
Why do Windows users feel entitled to the free labor of others.
I don’t think open source developers should feel obligated to chase after “normal users”, they should just make great software. Linux is arguably the most successful OS that has ever existed, if it’s not dominant in one specific shrinking sector is that the worst thing in the world?
Linux (+ everything needed for a desktop) has been a great desktop system for 20+ years, most difficulties aren’t the fault of Linux, they’re the fault of vendors failing to support and/or Microsoft throwing up barriers to competition.
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Victim blaming? Who’s the victim?
Linux abused them. Have some compassion, you monster
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A bunch of people telling me I did it wrong, or used the wrong distro, or that 90% of normal windows users will know how to troubleshoot software that isn’t installing right by going into terminal.
The victim is either the typical normal user or me depending on these types of responses.
There’s some merit to offering other distros to try for you, the individual. We’re all nerds, it’s a problem we want to help solve. (Bazzite is my recommendation if you’re up for another shot lol.)
But in terms of “is Linux ready for the average user,” I think Mint is considered pretty widely to be a “just works” sort of distro. It’s certainly fair to use that experience as an example.
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Do I upvote this post if I disagree or only if I know most people disagree with it?
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I think there is no general answer to “Is Linux mainstream ready to replace Windows?” because the use case is so important to consider.
If you just need a PC to browse the web and consume media then Linux is absolutely fine. This should more or less apply to a large group of users that don’t do anything else with their devices.
Are you a gamer? Then I’d say more or less perfectly fine but it really depends on the games you want to play. Everything with the new, invasive anti-cheat tools doesn’t work (e. g. League of Legends) but smaller, single player, or many multi player games do work at the moment.
Are you a professional or are using otherwise specific software? This is the biggest hurdle I see at the moment. CAD programs for engineering are a big problem for example.
And last but not least: Are you using periphery that needs specific drivers? Printers, audio interfaces, and whatnot. Then you might be out of luck as well if you can’t script.
The last two points are the only ones that would worry me when I won’t have at least one windows machine lying around.
So Linux is fine until you need to print, use software and some other scenarios? Explain that to my niece.
your niece is using ChromeOS or Android and making fun of her uncle for still being on a desktop
Your niece sets her windows pc up herself then or how can I understand your example?
Thats the thing, setting up a windows pc is really easy for the average user Hear me out: They dont have all the expectations and knowledge about different OSses that we have so they just navigate their current system to get to where they need to be or else ask a PC-literate person. No PC-illiterate person was bithered by cortana in the setup process or the games or weather in the startmenu.
You tried Mint yourself. Wouldn’t you agree that setting up mint is exactly as difficult as windows? Only thing is that people aren’t accustomed to it, but it’s hardly more difficult. And those pc-illiteraze users don’t set up their PCs adter all I’d argue. It’s the pc vendor or nephew or whoever that sets up the rig.
Only thing is that it’s unfamiliar, not more difficult. But if that’s the problem, then it’s just ppl not wanting to adapt to anything for the sake of it.
To be honest, for a fair review I would have to define the “setup” better. For Linux Mint I had to prepare a USB to flash it and mess in the BIOS while all my Win machines came with it installed. But we dont count that I assume. Besides that the initial setup was easier/faster on LM. But then for the most people finding and installing further programms is easier on a Win machine is easier, because many things are already installed. Some things might be bloat for some people but for tech-illiterate people having they might be useful: They already have a mail client (or even two…), the whole office suit (just one login away), hardware that is compatible for sure (even the fingerprint scanner and camera for face-login), and so on. Me personally am bothered by bloat, long startup times, bloat, telemertry and so on like many tech-guys. But then I think to my grandma who opens her old Win10 laptop, then goes to set up her iron-board (for clothes, idk how thats called) because she is used to having old machines. Then she looks at the desktop and clicks the icon with the word “Mail” in it, because all she needs know is that whe wants to check her emails.
So if I set up my old laptop for her, its easier and faster to setup a fresh windows, arrange the already installed icons on the desktop and do the logins for her. With Linux Mint I would have to bother with finding a compatible mailclient. Altho its not really that big of a deal, I admit.
So my conclusion is, maybe 2025 is the year of Linux, when there is a very noob-friendly OS which has at least some “bloat” already installed.
Setup wasn’t evaluated because it’s a one time thing that a normal person wouldn’t need to deal with. It also seems unfair to compare an OS install when Windows is pre-installed.
A PC-Illiterate person does zero tinkering. They turn on their pc and it works. If distributors shipped computers with Linux, like they did with Windows, it would probably be a better solution for 90% of people who only want to browse the internet, and could care less about all the fancy bloat that windows adds.
Can you explain to my sister why she can’t play DVDs on her brand new laptop that she paid a fortune for that came with windows.
She’s not a complete idiot. probably average maybe slightly above-average.
She was on the verge of RMA-ing her perfectly functional DVD drive though.Ooh in actual know this one: licensing. It costs money to commercially distribute the decoder.
thanks, that might actually explain it.
I always thought those fees were tiny vs the price of the os.
But i guess they’re probably only charging dell a small amount on a pre install.They could still put a codec pack in the store though and have the user pay a few quid for it - or whatever.
They do that for hevc but I suspect they looked at the telemetry and realized no one was using their built-in apps to play dvds? I honestly don’t have a dvd player to even test it out. my ps4/5 does a good enough job.
Because no new laptops have dvd drives? Seriously do any new laptops whatsoever still have dvd drives?
If it’s an external drive I would just tell her to install VLC if the normal media play doesn’t work (but I think it does work pretty well for DVDs).
She could also try searching for “windows dvd” and pick the first article she finds and at least every article I found tells you to install VLC.
Sorry i wasn’t clear about my point - I’m pretty sure I could get windows to play a dvd if i really wanted to.
But all i needed to do was prove that the dvd drive wasnt broken, and a live linux mint usb did that in 3 extremely “complicated” minutes.My actual question was more like:
" how come - if windows is so simple and so much easier to use and set up for normal users - she couldn’t do something she’d been accustomed to doing for years."The windows software centre or whatever it is was not keen to offer VLC, didn’t seem to mention it, but it was very keen to tell her she could buy the film from MS store or something affilliated.
anyway, it’s ok, i think the next dude has given some interesting info.
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I print and use software all day.
Thank you for your bigoted take. You know very well that a) GNU/Linux can print, b) it can “use software” and c) deal with any other scenario.
How tf is that bigoted?
I was paraphrasing…
Using an awful example to showcase it as well.
Like the other dude said, your niece likely only wants to browse Instagram or tiktok… which a fresh install of mint or Ubuntu would work perfectly for.
Your average user isn’t going to go download a seperate browser, they’re just going to use the one pre-installed which… surprise surprise, means everything would work out of the box for a truly ignorant user who can’t help themselves.
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Who doesn’t trust that people can learn new skills? This guy.
You assume people can. Simply moving between browsers is a problem for most people. you overestimate how technical competent most people are.
They think we’re too stupid to switch app, extremely patronising.
You might not be. But have you ever worked in IT support?
I can speak to this. I did phone support for 6 years working with VoIP (internet phones). In my experience, it’s much less their ability to learn and much more their willingness. So many people I worked with never wanted to go off their beaten track of what they already knew how to do.
They would do it often because it was a management decision and they were stuck with calling support. Even just training a group of 4-5 people how to transfer a call could take 15-30 minutes of explaining all the details. They don’t want new phones. They just want to get back to the work they know.
There are certainly exceptions and occasionally they will even find it fun to learn something new or get new features, but this was definitely not the rule.
I’ve always considered the perfect technology to be one you never realize you’re using. Linux, as broad and powerful as it’s utility can be, is anything but seamless to someone who doesn’t already have years of experience with it.
Like linux on the steam deck. Very seamless console experience.
Who’s calling Microsoft IT support after buying a new laptop?
The type of people who are going to struggle adopting an entirely new OS that sometimes requires more than simply “using it”.
This minority struggles using any system, so switching alongside others, away from convoluted, anti-libre software, Windows/macOS, will ensure they continue to receive help.
I agree with the fact that they will struggle with any system… they MIGHT be a minority (I’m not entirely convinced of that to be honest) but it isn’t small minority that can be expected to simply “tag along” for something like this.
Addendum: My comment is not to say they handle windows better than Linux or vice versa…it is change that they will rebel against, not the adoption of Linux. Better the devil they know…
That sounds more like their issue if they struggle to switch software.
Let’s be honest, most of the time it’s a lack of willingness to learn how to use something or just ignorance. As opposed to anything else.
It’s not difficult to learn, most people just refuse to do so.
don’t worry about it. with the enshittification of win 11, that gap will close faster than copilot will record your activities.
Those upcoming changes are why I’ve been playing with the idea of a complete switch to Linux. While I use Linux regularly (but certainly not exclusively) and feel comfortable making the transition to it from Windows, my wife and kids would struggle with some aspects of Linux. And committing all of us to that OS transition would mean a commitment for me of troubleshooting, assisting, and educating the family.
Thanks OP for this post. I know you’re getting some shit for it, but I and others appreciate your honest findings.
I don’t think OP’s analysis should be taken as offensive or disingenuous by others here. And I don’t understand why they are getting shit. I’ve been using Linux off and on for 20 years. It’s come an insanely long way in that timeframe with its usability for less technical users. But yes, there are still some gaps to fill. And the way to fix them is to listen to honest feedback like OP’s.
For some reason you’re suggesting us to believe that your wife and kids do the maintainance of the windows machines like finding GPU driversbut couldn’t do it for Linux machines.
New windows computers almost definitely have a program that does this for you with a click of a button. You don’t have to hunt for the download button on a shady website to get a gpu driver anymore.
A New Computer with pre installed Linux also has all drivers necessary preinstalled.
Isn’t Nvidia a pain though?
I’ve heard differing experiences lately. It seems dependent on how old you card is and if it’s supported by Nvidia I guess
On GNU/Linux, the drivers and blobs come with the kernel, so every installation has, by the nature of the operating system, all the drivers it could ever need. The only exception here are proprietary drivers, but that’s not because of technical limitations, it is due to the philosophy of our free software movement. You can easily find distros that come pre-installed with proprietary drivers.
No, I’m saying that whenever they would run into any problem with the OS they would need to either figure out how to overcome it, or I works need to help them with it. It could be a more technical issue. It is could be a case of " how do you do this thing in the Linux UI? Because it’s different from Windows."
There is no “Linux UI” per se, the closest thing to it is Bash I guess. I find it important to make people understand that GNU/Linux is not bound to any particular GUI like Windows or MacOS are. With them, their less knowledgeable users equate the GUI to the OS, which is fair because they are so tightly integrated and not changeable. But for GNU/Linux, the visual UX+UI are entirely modular and not part of the operating system itself. As I said, the Bash shell may be interpreted as a kind of UI standard for FOSS Unix and Unix-like systems, but it’s also not necessarily required in that it can be replaced with another shell program.
Of course, not knowing you I cannot tell how experienced you are with GNU/Linux, so you could know all of this already, therefore don’t feel like I’m trying to belittle you or anything, this is meant to be genuinely helpful by giving people that have no prior exposure to GNU/Linux some glances into what makes it special.Edit: scratch that last part, I’ve just now noticed that you are the same person that said they had already transitioned partially
Well, there is always a curve for learning a new UI, even if similarly structured.
But then you could never escape Windows, because most users are trained for that UI and have certain expectations for it.
The Step from Win7 to Win10 maybe would be similar, lots of things changed. (even though we know Win10 had alot of Win7 things under the hood)
If OP is unwilling to learn basic features of the OS, of course they face criticism. This post is not a good contribution, it is once more a superficial review by someone who has jumped on the hating GNU/Linux bandwagon because they somehow personally identify with M$. But the Apple crowd is worse.
I’m OP, I’m not unwilling. I couldn’t turn this laptop over to anyone else though.
Also, I don’t hate Linux nor do I love windows. I hate windows probably more, for other reasons. The pinnacle OS for me is OSX as distributed on the BlackBerry passport.
I’m even on an Apple phone right now.
It’s not difficult to empathize with non-technical people though, which is why my post is about.
So 2025 is the year of Linux desktop? This time for real.
Cosmic DE is coming out this year tho
I need to disagree on pretty much all points. I switched both my mother and an old friend of mine to linux and neither of them had any major issues. They’re not technical people, but they understood the basics needed for everyday use without problem.
I swear, half the issues people report after trying out linux are entirely related to the nvidia drivers and nothing else.
You’re the monster I deal with the remains of at my job lol
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Your post misses the entire point.
While us nerds can work out problems and use a terminal, it doesn’t mean we’re happy to spend our time trouble shooting instead of actually getting shit done.
And the fact that so many of these basic issues should exist in the first place leaves one with the sour taste that they have to hold the OS’s hand forever.
Normal people don’t want to touch the terminal at all.
You really have no clue how inept “most users” are. I’d be extremely surprised if even 20% of the population would be able to use Linux without getting extremely frustrated at the first error, and unable to fix anything themselves.
I recently saw a meme that applies here, about experts/enthusiasts overestimating the “average normie” in their field even when they’re trying to account for most people not being on their level.
Yeah, and if you think that “most users” are ready for linux, you’re in that meme.
Windows isn’t good enough to replace the Unix/linux desktops I’ve been running for the past 35 years.
windows isn’t ready to replace windows. they never have been.
Poor take. 3.1, NT4, 95, 98SE, 2000, xp, 10. All were widely considered to be a considerable improvement over the OS they replaced.
Where Millennium and Visita?? :D
Vista was a sacrifice. They needed vista to be awful so 8+ could fly.
ME was designed by the marketing team.
I really liked Vista, it was the first stable Windows for me that I didn’t have to reinstall once in a while.
Never used 8, I hated it.
Millennium wasn’t just a stunt, but it got bad reputation bcs of not-really compatible drivers with W98.
sure good old fashioned stuff from when I was a baby or something excluding 10 which really didn’t offer much apart from more telemetry than ever and even more convoluted system settings menus. I’ll let the pre-10 releases that weren’t total garbage slide but any widely considered improvement going forward at least will be shills, bots, and ai articles, calling it now.
I suspect with MS pushing their products to be based on webview2 (teams, new outlook, etc) that the next OS they release will be designed for a more efficient cpu architecture, similar to what Apple is doing. Like vista, it will probably suck until it gains more mainstream support.
an adventure in terminal
That I do not understand. With APT, it’s usually a single installation command for any kind of software packaged by the distribution. An adventure would in that case translate to a one-liner by your standards?
Any problem that breaks the GUI version to such a degree that the user must resort to using the terminal is a problem. You and I may be content to use the terminal – hell, I tend to prefer it over most GUi options – but that doesn’t mean your average user will be happy to do so.
I would be surprised if 5% of the people that use a computer at all know how to work a CLI of any form.
Additionally, when you get a response from the command that the dependencies failed to install, what is the typical computer operator expected to do? They are already far outside of their abilities at this point.
I know jack and shit about Linux, but my laptop running Mint has happily taken every computer job, except for recording music, from my win10 desktop. I have opened the terminal exactly 0 times. There’s a flatpack for everything I have desired so far. oS geekness is not needed to run Linux. As I get used to the available music software I will have no further need of ms windows.
Anti-libre software forcing us to click through 69 boxes to fail without showing any error while banning us from sharing fixes source code, banning us from fixing the problem, is so much better. I would be surprised if 0.00001% can’t open terminal, type three words and press enter.
For media consumption, internet browsing etc, Linux is more than ready to replace Windows. However, problems do arise in exotic hardware combinations, but these days, this is the exception rather than the norm.
