But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Of course Trump is worse.
Now let’s not pretend that the Democratic Party has any love at all for these protestors. Let’s not pretend that the prevailing sentiment in this community isn’t that these protestors should shut up and stop criticizing US support for Netanyahu’s genocide because they’re worried it makes Biden look bad.
And let’s not pretend that the US isn’t a two-party system.
Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Your choices are Trump or Biden.
And I’m voting for Biden.
Then why are you campaigning for Trump?
This whole thing of “you need to lie about the facts to make one side look way better than they are or else you are campaigning for the other side” thing needs to go. It just needs to go. It isn’t fooling anyone, and it just makes everyone doing it come across as idiots. Own your stance, be honest about what we can all see, and try to explain why you feel like you do from base reality. I know you’ve been told it makes you a traitor or whatever, but it simply doesn’t. It makes you come across as a genuine person, and it makes the things you say have more weight.
Removed by mod
My agenda is to see more honest discussions. It is not a hidden agenda. I am very open about it. I, and many other people, honestly believe that Joe is doing a horrific job. I also honestly believe that Trump would do a horrific job. I am disgusted by the fact that nobody who could potentially make it into the White House has shown anything but complete and utter contempt for the innocent lives in Gaza.
I absolutely refuse to pretend that Biden is great for Gaza in some pathetic attempt to trick idiots who somehow haven’t paid attention into thinking that Biden isn’t floating in am Olympic sized pool of children’s blood. I’m not saying Trump will do any better, and I’m not saying I will vote for Trump. All I am saying is that we will all be better off if vocal people like yourself were to at least try to have honest dialogs. No strawman, no hidden agenda, just plain, honest discussion. The thing that has offended you so deeply can be summed up in a single word. Honesty.
I’m happy to engage in nuanced, fair, complex discourse about US politics with anyone who wants to have it, and I have criticisms of my party.
Do tell. What criticisms do you have of the Democratic Party?
One can dislike Biden without liking Trump.
Question: Does this heightened level of nuance transfer onto a FPTP voting system?
Answer: absolutely not.
Your comment should read “One can dislike Biden without demanding voters elect a bigger dipshit”…
But it doesn’t.
I’m not campaigning for Trump.
That is not at all what’s happening. The world is much less black and white than you think.
Removed by mod
@[email protected] is gonna twist it around, call you a centrist, and cry about being bullied.
Now compare your fanfic to what actually happened.
I guess you’re conveniently forgetting about yesterday where you made an absolute fool of yourself and got caught lying.
Btw I’m STILL waiting on that answer.
Oh I know. Trust me, I don’t engage with these people with any illusions. There’s no arguing with the agitprop element here. The point of responding at all is just to identify them to the general public.
Removed, civility.
No sarcasm whatsoever - thank you.
Biden thinks the protestors have a First Amendment right to speak out. Repubs want them attacked by the National Guard and/or deported to a war zone.
I did not mention Biden’s opinion regarding the protestors.
Yes, that’s why it’s important someone did mention it.
Yes, it’s vitally important to change the subject and argue against something I didn’t say.
You guys never have the courage to say what you mean, just hint at it. Say what you mean.
Thank god I have centrists to tell me that I mean tons of shit I don’t say.
No he doesn’t. He wouldn’t be painting them as violent protests that allows everyone to dismiss their first amendment rights if he did.
The prevailing attitude on Lemmy seems to be that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Comments that don’t support the protesters are quite rare.
Not many people outside of the full-on tankie brigades are arguing that Israel has no right to exist as a country. On the other hand, they are arguing that Palestinine also has a right to exist as a country, and that the land that Israel has unjustly taken, and continues to take, should be returned. And that Israel should need to make reparations for the Palestinian non-combatants they’ve killed, and the land they’ve stolen.
It’s clear that Israel as a country will never allow Palestinians to have a full voice in their government, so the only reasonable choice at this point is a two-state solution.
Israel is sure doing their best job to try and make that the prevailing attitude. And frankly, I don’t know that I disagree anymore. Get the civilians out of harms way, and then wipe out the government and the IDF, alongside Hamas.
spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
Vote for Biden, of course. There’s no better choice, to my utter dismay.
spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
Real change won’t occur within the next few months.
Congratulations.
spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
Sorry. I’m coming to this with the understanding that delay means that many fewer living Palestinians and that much closer to Netanyahu completing his genocide. I consider this situation to be too time-sensitive for incrementalism, and I have a tendency to regard calls for patience in the face of this to be callous.
I also firmly believe that Biden is harming his own chances of defeating Trump by supporting Netanyahu’s genocide, and that the future of democracy in the US rests on his willingness to cease his support.
If Biden does not change in the next few months, I fear things will get much worse and may never improve for the human species.
deleted by creator
Let’s pretend about that world…
As trump gasses these folks…
But it’s someone else gassing people… it’s not the same republicans that did it back in the day with the patriots act. No that was different…
So what are you going to do about it?
Vote for Biden in November and criticize his support for genocide until he stops. I’ve said this more than a few times already.
This is the way
let’s ask the Gazans if they want Trump or Biden to win in November
If they want any chance in hell, they pick Biden.
Trump rolls out the red carpet for Netanyahu and tries to secure the rights to build a hotel and golf resort on the beach in Gaza.
you wanna hold your breath with me while we wait for that chance Joe “Im a Zionist” Biden gives them?
If that’s your best option, that’s what you have to do.
This is how logic and critical thinking work.
Can you provide a better alternative?
I’d say Jill Stein would probably be the best option for them of the choices we have.
She’s not an option given the current state of the democratic system used in the country.
The only way it works is if people banded together and changed the system, then a 3rd party system becomes viable.
sure she is, votes count the same for her as for anyone else.
Do you mean russian asset Jill Stein?
You talking about that one photo? You wont believe who else has been to Russia several times.
she’s not a russian asset. this is libel.
edit
have fun with this comment chain. it’s a wild ride.
The “Best Option” placed 4th in 2016 and her party did worse in 2020:
2016:
Donald Trump Republican 62,984,828 - 46.09%
Hillary Clinton Democratic 65,853,514 - 48.18%
Gary Johnson Libertarian 4,489,341 - 3.28%
Jill Stein Green 1,457,218 - 1.07%2020:
Joe Biden Democratic 81,283,501 - 51.31%
Donald Trump Republican 74,223,975 - 46.85%
Jo Jorgensen Libertarian 1,865,535 - 1.18%
Howie Hawkins Green 407,068 - 0.26%Yeah, more people should be voting for her. Like, if you care about stuff like Biden using emergency powers to bypass congress to send missiles to Israel to help kill more Gazan civilians.
I don’t think Stein is still the Green Party candidate, if that’s what you’re referencing
She is
Actually if they want a chance they will go with a wild card because they already know what Biden would do.
If you think trump is a wild card on this topic I really don’t know what to tell you.
Based on this article, I think they’d want Biden.
There is a very clear choice now, that many of us have been trying to explain. Trump would be infinitely worse for Palestinians, and he proves it to you here. If you actually care about the Palestinians, it’s clear which of the two you should vote for.
If you only care about scoring political points however and using the Palestinians as pawns to that end, I could see why your voting decision would be more challenging.
I dont think you understand how dire things are for palestinians right now. Even if Trump were elected and Gaza was completely wiped off the map, he’d only be responsible for like 10% of the destruction. Its about to be completely gone, Rafah is the last place in Gaza and its already being bombed. Really tired of this lame excuse for Bidens genocide.
deleted by creator
Biden
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
Okay. How is trump better for human rights? Or… anything.
Take your time.
In what way did I even argue anything was better with trump?
And just makes it worse when Biden is doing some of his polices.
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
The only reason it “makes sense” to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Yeah in response to
But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Bidens literally continuing trumps immigration policy and trying to get even more right wing immigration policy in.
The only reason it “makes sense” to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Do you think pointing out how Biden is bad can only mean a person in pro trump?
Again where did say anything about trump good?
But what is Genocide Joe going to do to earn MY vote.
South Park turned a whole fucking generation into “but both sides suck” idiots.
He’s not gonna be Trump. Got my vote.
Biden is required to ship weapons to Israel by law. He is doing what he can to limit Israel’s carnage. Remember the USS Liberty? Israel doesn’t care about anyone other than Israel.
Thank you for that link. It will be helpful.
A lot of people are unaware of Jonathan Pollard too.
Yup.
Would I like a better candidate? Of course. Do I want to cause untold suffering to myself and the people I love? Nope.
Not even just the people you love. This article makes it exceptionally clear that if you actually care about the Palestinians, Trump winning is the absolute worst case scenario.
Bingo.
Whatever “genocide person” does for you is irrelevant. You are someone desperately asking for others to solve your problems. At worst the rest of us will solve your problems, otherwise you might do it yourself but I have my doubts…
I think we all knew this of President Drink Bleach, and we saw how he tear-gassed protesters that time when he held a Bible visibly for a photo shoot.
Trump’s issue, I optimistically believe, is that those who wrote “Uncommitted” during the primaries and those who point out the ongoing genocide will still vote for Biden - because everyone has already correctly assumed what this article is stating.
Nonetheless, it’s reaffirming to have confirmation. Thank you for posting this.
spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
The important part is to align him with Biden and shit all over everything.
It doesn’t matter if there is a republican giving full throated support to apartheid… if a democrat even seems icky that’s more important.
These “I’m not gonna vote for Biden because my principles are too important” folks are really starting to piss me off.
Where were your principles last year? The year before? Where were they when Russia invaded Ukraine? What about the Rohingya? The Yazidi? How about here at home and what Republican power - in congress and across the courts? Where will they be if Trump wins and appoints another SCOTUS judge and packs the federal courts? When hundreds of transgender Americans are murdered? When women no longer have any autonomy over their bodies?
This isn’t about your principles. It’s not about you looking cool in a keffiyeh. This is about all of us on the left working together to reduce the most harm. You in your enormous privilege are not the main character here.
I mean seriously… get the fuck over yourselves you spoiled brats.
I suspect a lot of those people are arguing in bad faith and are actually spreading misinformation. That they never intended on voting for Biden, or always intended on voting for Trump and trying to make it seem like Biden is losing his base.
IRL, most people I know, while not happy with Biden’s response acknowledge that Trump’s view is much much worse.
I voted for Biden in 2020. At this rate I’m not voting for him in 2024.
Psh, I’m voting for him. I’m doing a lot of other stuff to improve society in ways I think are important, but when it comes to my presidential vote, Biden is the lesser evil in a voting system that requires I take that into consideration.
Well yeah, I’m not just sitting here complaining to the internet either. I just don’t think the democrats are ever going to turn around and stop chasing the republicans if we blindly vote for them. If they let the republicans go further and further to the right without chasing them then the republican party dies as another party replaces them. If the democrats go further and further right leaving the left unserved then the same thing will happen to them. I happen to believe that we’ve reached that point. The democrats have been chasing the republicans since Reagan.
I think this is what people call accelerationism, meaning you want to crash the plane so it can be rebuilt.
I get it… It’s very frustrating to have to choose a candidate you’re not excited for, or worse. I’d ask you if you have any loved ones who require healthcare, or anyone who’s LGBT, or someone non white. They’re the people who are most at risk with the hate mongering that’s going on with that guy’s base.
The answer is almost certainly no.
No, it’s not accelerationist to just withhold your vote. Accelerationists are going to do things to bring about the anarchy state they think we need to rebuild properly. So stuff like attacking the power grid or attempting to start a race war (for white supremacist accelerationists). Not voting for someone and working to create a new political party is how the system is designed to be used.
I think they’ve started to turn around in the last decade or so, but not fast enough for my liking. They definitely were heading to the right for a good long while before that though, especially on economic issues.
Biden’s shut down of the unions; sign off on immigration policies that are harsher than Trump’s; protectionist gift to the donor class wrapped in climate change; and stance on Gaza and the protestors convinces me they aren’t. They talked a good game in 2020 but showed they understand how to play the game pretty much right away. They restored some rational stuff for COVID but other than that they ran to the right right away.
As long as you understand that not voting for Biden is 100% a vote for Trump (whether you cast a ballot or not) and you’re OK with that, then more power to you.
But I would ask, what do you think you’re achieving by not voting for him? If you voted for him in 2020 then you must hold personal ideals that at least semi-align with his, and you have to know that Trump’s are a complete 180 from them.
I’d also like to ask (since you imply you haven’t made up your mind) what Biden could do to change your mind?
Not rooting for the Eagles means you’re a Patriots fan 100%.
Stop gaslighting people.
You’re a moron. Thanks for fucking over the Country.
Sure buddy.
Loser.
Ahh I get it. So you’re 100% the person I was talking about in my first post.
Oh I’m arguing in bad faith because I called out your gaslighting? Conflating disillusioned voters with voters for the other team is a top tier propaganda technique meant to shore up base loyalty. And here you are executing it to a T.
How is it gaslighting? Gaslighting isn’t simply making (unfounded) accusations.
Or you know, at no point did you actually engage in discussion. You used a false equivalent and rhetoric. Which is pretty much the textbook definition of a bad faith argument.
It is more like the trolly problem, one is bad, the other is much worse. The difference is that whether you’re a fan of a football team or not it does not affect the outcome, but voting does affect the outcome albeit marginally.
The analogy isn’t about voting it’s about their vociferous defense of Biden and categorizing people as loyal or not. And the trolley problem likewise presents the problem as only having two tracks when history shows us that’s not true. There’s nearly infinite tracks. Including one where Biden comes around on Israel and wins the election.
I hope people realize that that Witcher quote “If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all.” was explicitly written to be wrong, and only served as a “Before” of a maturing character arc.
I don’t even remember that, was that from the books, games, or TV show? At any rate, no obviously I had no problem voting for him in 2020. In 2020 he wasn’t supporting the mass murder of civilians in Gaza and asylees in South/Central America. In 2020 he promised to do something to stop the red states from persecuting people. In 2020 we thought he’d have a sane plan for exiting Afghanistan and would bring our interpreters and civilian support out of the country, (Instead veterans had to go back over there and get them themselves in shit Hollywood’s going to make a movie about anytime now). In 2020 we thought he’d surge funding for the military mental health crisis. And so so much more.
Username checks out.
I never promised pretty.
The only difference between them is language. Both have no problem with slaughtering women and children and we are seeing it now. Biden doesn’t care and is supplying the weapons, just like he didn’t care when Lebanon was invaded.
Begin said Biden “rose and delivered a very impassioned speech” defending the invasion. Begin said he was shocked at how passionately Biden supported Israel’s invasion when Biden “said he would go even further than Israel, adding that he’d forcefully fend off anyone who sought to invade his country, even if that meant killing women or children.” Begin said, “I disassociated myself from these remarks,” adding: “I said to him: No, sir; attention must be paid. According to our values, it is forbidden to hurt women and children, even in war. Sometimes there are casualties among the civilian population as well. But it is forbidden to aspire to this. This is a yardstick of human civilization, not to hurt civilians.” The comments were striking from Begin, who had been notorious as a leader of the Irgun, a militant group that carried out some of the worst acts of ethnic cleansing accompanying the creation of the state of Israel, including the 1948 Deir Yassin massacre.
[emphasis mine]
Well put. The only principle we should be considering is saving as many lives as possible and preventing as much persecution as possible. Adherence to any principles which go against this simply shows those principles are not worth holding, not as absolutes at least.
Voting for the democrats isn’t saving lives though. The red states are just going ahead with massive civil rights violations anyways. If the democrats won’t step in to stop them then we don’t have a reason to vote for them anymore. The worst case scenario is already happening. It’s not in the future, it’s now.
Voting for the democrats isn’t saving lives though.
How do you prove or disprove this?
If the democrats won’t step in to stop them then we don’t have a reason to vote for them anymore
Do you not understand how our system of government works? Or do you just want some sort of left-leaning fascism? Admittedly, Bernie would make a great benevolent dictator… but that’s exactly the kind of thing that bites you in the ass eventually.
The president has more power than you think he does. Trump reminded us of that. And it’s simple to prove. What has he done to stop Abbot and DeSantis? He has how many federal law enforcement officers? And he hasn’t just arrested the Texas national guardsmen operating illegally on the border? Hell he could just call them to federal duty and send them to an ammo dump in Alaska.
If nothing else you’ve demonstrated your complete ignorance of how our political system works in this country. Well done!
Look up title 10 orders. The president is the commander in chief. If he won’t pull those guardsmen out of there it’s because he doesn’t mind what they’ve done.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
LOL. You are clearly ignorant of the practical implications of such things and more generally of how politics works in real terms.
Every action a president takes either gains or loses political capital. The president does not operate in a vacuum… indeed our entire system of government is designed to have checks and balances and specifically to keep the authority of a president confined.
I must say, you have such an incredibly simplistic view of this… it’s quite stunning. You literally sound like a MAGAt, begging for authoritarian control.
You are not going to get Arab-Americans to vote for Biden, forget it. You want us to carry water for someone slaughtering us while grinning. I voted for him in 2020 and that will be the last time I ever vote Democratic, the first time was for John Kerry in 2004. Voting Republican is of course not an option, it is third party from now on though I am making arrangements to leave the country. I am paying taxes to give myself PTSD watching Arabs get slaughtered with my tax money. I know most people don’t have the means to leave the US, but I do.
Biden could have stopped this genocide from day one, not only he didn’t but he continues to supply the weapons and political cover for Israel to continue massacring women and children. There’s enough Arab-Americans to swing the election one way or another. Biden and the Democratic Party will have to earn our votes rather than extract them from us by scaring us with Trump.
3rd party vote just goes to Cheato Mussolini
He won in 2016 despite me voting for Clinton. In 2020 I thought Biden couldn’t be worse, but I got a genocide. In 2024 I’m voting for someone I like for a change. Clinton too is never getting a vote from after she posted this. Cheering and justifying a genocide is where I part ways with the Democratic Party.
It’s your right to vote 3rd party, but doing so makes it only more likely that Trump will take office and ruin not just Palestine but the ability for Arab Americans and possibly every foreign born, and possibly non-white person in general, to live in the US. In our current political system, third parties count for nothing, it’s a wasted vote. I’m not thrilled by Biden either but voting for president has to be strategic.
How could have Biden stopped it on day one? Really. Tell us.
By not sending weapons, by withholding financial aid, by not justifying the crimes and by not vetoing the U.N. ceasefire vote multiple times. Reagan and Bush Sr. were able to do so. No surprise that Thurmond-loving Biden is to their right somehow.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
wrong generalization bro , it’s actually muslim americans
You are funny. Arab Americans and Muslim Americans do overlap and both care deeply about Palestine, but are still two different groups. Most Arabs in the US are actually Christian, and the news article I linked to mentioned Arab Americans.
deleted by creator
Obama gave people hope. Then Biden ran a very progressive campaign after Hillary lost a normal campaign. Our principles were always in play. Nothing has changed, Biden still has to earn votes and nothing Trump said is different from what Biden is doing. He’s just saying it out loud. For the record Israel just bombed a known refugee tent camp and this is what other countries are saying. This is what the White House said. Either Biden is a joke that keeps getting played by Netanyahu or Biden thinks we’re a joke. Either way is not going to win him votes. And his entire job is to win votes by representing the people. I doubt the kids being denied their college degrees care much whose in white house when the police stormed their protest encampment.
Biden still has to earn votes and nothing Trump said is different from what Biden is doing. He’s just saying it out loud.
You have to be in a position to not be affected by Republican policies to think that. Really to be single-minded about one issue, no matter how valid in itself, while ignoring everything else that affects so many so badly.
You may think you get virtue points for this but what you are showing is just how incredibly privileged and selfish you are.
I’m not doing it for “points”. The entire idea that this is some child’s game is the problem. People are already dying in massive numbers, here and abroad. Democrats want to just continue the status quo, while the republicans keep changing the status quo.
The entire idea that this is some child’s game is the problem
It’s precisely that you can’t wrap your head around the fact that this is NOT a child’s game where you get to personally pick - for everyone else - the one issue that matters to you this week that is the problem.
If that’s true then why do we have elections at all?
You are not on the left.
Being pro-palestine is not the definition of the left, the truth is things would only be worse for Palestine if Trump is elected, and in exchange for this punishment of the Dems the potential losses are immense and not just for Palestine. Being pro-palestine is very popular among the far right as well, and they are cheering for Trump just the same as you have been implicitly.
Liberalism and the Democratic Party are on the right. Joe Biden was friends with Strom Thurmond. Joe Biden demonized “busing” and other programs to integrate schools. Joe Biden cheered the slaughter of women in children in Lebanon in 1982. Biden is basically Trump but with more eloquence. Their actions are the same. Palestinians are getting slaughtered right now, protestors are getting beaten up and jailed right now. Trump is just the boogeyman Democrats use to get their voters to stop demanding anything.
This comment section is nothing but crabs in a bucket. This is why rightoids have people banning masks and forming armies of idiots while the left toils against each other. Being unified like the right has benefits but is against our ideals. We need to find a way to compromise with each other to get the most important things we can agree on done.
And yet the same people will hold their intelligence and principals in high regard.
Meanwhile, the Right keeps stacking their deck by playing tribal games with emotions.
When the "scorecard " is tallied, you’ll notice intelligence and principals don’t count for much if they’re not being represented.
All I’m looking for is spears pointed in the right direction at this point. This is it. Right here, right now. We either vote in Trump and lose all democracy or we bite our tongue and use another Biden term to get ranked choice. We can no longer afford to kick the can down the road.
Centrists will never compromise leftward.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for – on a purely numbers based assessment. The middle is a larger and more reliable voter base.
But, I think that’s going to change over the next few decades. Progressives and further left people are becoming an increasingly important and large voting bloc. Numerically it will soon make sense to compromise leftwards to get more votes than compromising with the center. We’re just not there yet.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for – on a purely numbers based assessment.
If they’re a large enough group to blame when ya lose, they’re a large enough group to compromise with.
I don’t disagree there, but that’s also why I don’t believe in blaming the left nor attributing losses to them. It isn’t a large enough group to have that much sway yet.
From a rhetorical perspective I agree – if politicians are willing to blame the left, they should be willing to work with them. Like you say, it’s logically inconsistent to blame them but also think they aren’t worth compromising with.
I also think the “rebelliousness” of leftists is overstated. I firmly believe most of them vote with Democrats so that there is harm reduction. I think a lot of the detractors are just a loud online minority. I strongly suspect for instance the “don’t threaten me with the supreme court” crowd was not even close to most of the progressives who voted in 2016. More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
It’s more than that. Clinton supporters started a PAC to get McCain elected when Obama won the nomination. And they’re the same people who keep saying “blue no matter who.”
There’s definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I’d like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn’t reflect most people. I think at the end of the day these two extremes are a dismissible collective group. Most of us can truly cooperate and agree on most things, and find the loud minority repulsive.
Along those lines, I appreciate that you have been consistently reasonable in discussions and arguments. Your criticisms are well founded in evidence and you show that it’s possible to be critical and displeased with Biden while still voting for him. That’s a level of intellectual nuance I wish I saw more of.
There’s definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I’d like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn’t reflect most people.
And yet in 2008, Obama won despite their efforts at sabotage. To hear centrists talk about it, anyone who so much as thought a positive thought regarding Bernie Sanders is solely responsible for Clinton’s loss in 2016.
We should be able to safely ignore the pampered, spoiled centrists who threw a massive tantrum when they didn’t get 100% of everything they wanted in 2008, and ignore progressives at our peril. We do the opposite.
But please, tell me how you refuse to vote for Biden “for Palestine’s safety”
That is so messed up. Makes Biden look quite reasonable on the Gaza issue in comparison.
Trump legit wants to nuke Gaza.
Biden isn’t handling the situation well, but Trump wound be orders of magnitude worse.
This is what people have been trying to say. Biden isn’t doing a great job, but Trump would be infinitely worse. If you actually care about the Palestinians instead of scoring political points, there’s a very clear choice who to vote for.
Really? What’s different about this and what Biden is actually doing? Biden doesn’t say the quiet part out loud. That’s it. That’s the only difference.
Convincing people that no matter who you vote for, we’ll keep paying for the genocide is not a good strategy.
All that will do is make empathetic people not vote, and when turnout is low, republicans win.
Dems can’t run in fear based politics about what the other side wants to do, the people that shit works on are already Republicans.
Dem voters want to hear about what Dems will do to help.
It is very very hard to change that, because it’s literally how our brains work.
Dems tend to have larger prefrontal cortex (empathy and critical thinking) while Republicans have waaaay more amygdala activity (fear, flight/fright/freeze).
What appeals to one group, doesn’t appeal to the other. But both groups cater to conservatives and hope they can guilt trip high empathy voters.
https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.16030051
The people running the Dem party need to learn some fucking empathy and realize just because deep down they’re closer to conservatives than liberals, and that voters aren’t motivated by the same shit.
I mean, we could just replace party leaders with empathetic people who understand their voters, but I’m not holding my breath.
Did you seriously just turn trump talking about deporting us citizens because they are saying something he doesn’t like into “but here is why the democrats suck”?
If the Dems only standard is:
Not trump
While I agree it’s good to at least maintain that, it’s not enough to get the votes need to beat Trump.
It barely worked when he was in office, why wouldn’t 24 be more like 16 than 20?
I don’t think people understand that when the candidates are as bad as Biden and trump, that being an incumbent is a disadvantage.
If you think people want Biden as president, you’re not paying attention
I think there is very much an argument for working to get Democrats we actually WANT to vote for down ballot so that we actually have someone “good” in 4 years.
Having the other candidate openly talk about violating the rights of a significant part of the country is not that moment. And the fact that you want to turn this into an attack on the Democrats makes me REALLY suspicious of what your actual motives are.
Having the other candidate openly talk about violating the rights of a significant part of the country is not that moment
This is Trump’s 3rd election…
Why are Dems still running unpopular candidates like Biden?
If all that matters is beating trump like they’ve been saying for over a decade, why dont we run a candidate that’s popular with voters?
Why run an old conservative just because trump is worse?
You know this isn’t the norm right? Do you not remember Bill and Obama’s first campaigns?
That’s the type of campaign we need, otherwise there’s a good chance Biden loses.
You can be mad at it, it you can accept it. But Biden isn’t popular due to his words and actions
Why are Dems still running unpopular candidates like Biden?
Because he’s the sitting President and leader of the Democratic party. I don’t understand why this simple fact is so hard to understand.
There’s only one person who can decide Biden shouldn’t be the nominee and that’s Biden. See Johnson in '68. Johnson chose to step aside.
Obama was HEAVILY criticized for his, quite frankly excessive, use of drones in assassinations.
And Clinton had a LONG history of controversies even before he ran for office.
Regardless, Biden is the incumbent. Replacing him is the Democrats saying that they have no faith in the president.
Again, there is a lot of reason to discuss how to salvage the Democratic Party. But not really one where the opposition is talking about illegally deporting protesters.
Keep this up and people will assume you are just a dumbass tankie who is regurgitating Russian and CCP talking points.
They were young and charismatic…
No one said they were perfect but they were popular with voters.
Biden isn’t young, and he’s not charismatic. So he’s not popular with voters.
Are you forgetting how close 2020 was? Don’t be fooled when vote totals go up, they always go up with population. But even to get trump actively out of office, Biden pulled an embarrassing percent of eligible voters.
This election he’s less popular, and frankly he didn’t really have any room to spare.
You’re talking about this like reality matters, not perception.
And next time, at least put your insults at the front, I wouldn’t have typed all that if I’d seen it.
This isn’t about Biden or Trump, at least not directly. This is about trying to save as many Palestinian lives as possible, assuming you actually care about them and aren’t just using them for political points.
The ideal situation is that the war ends and Israel completely fucks off. But the ideal solution is not a viable option currently. One candidate is keeping the status quo while criticizing Israel, or and the other candidate wants to intensifying the bombings and attacks on civilians and praises Israel.
Forget the names behind the candidates. Are you truly telling me that there’s no difference between these two candidates, and that one option does not kill countless more Palestinians than the other option?
The ideal situation is that the war ends and Israel completely fucks off.
That will never happen with Biden.
I don’t know why you don’t understand it, maybe you’re just too used to his actions never following his words?
But he’s been saying nothing will ever lessen his support for Israel for about 50 years now…
This is one of his few promises he’s definitely keeping.
I know that’ll never happen. That’s why I said it’s an ideal that won’t happen. What I’m talking about is picking the candidate who’ll kill fewer Palestinians and may listen to reason, over the one who’ll crush any dissent over the war and urge Netanyahu to continue.
and may listen to reason
Biden has spent literally 50 years in office and has been saying nonstop nothing would ever erode his support of Israel…
Nothing
And his actions back up his words here.
You think it’s a coincidence this is happening while he’s US president and Netanyhu was about to be ousted from power?
You know the bulk of the killing in concentration camps was when the nazis knew they were going to lose?
Bibi and his extremists were going to lose power, somehow one the planets biggest intelligence agencies let an attack thru on the anniversary of an attack during a music festival blocks away from the border?
I’m not saying Israel orchestrated it, but they definitely turned a blind eye to a perfect recipe for an attack and used it as an excuse to commit a genocide while they still had the power to do so.
And Biden spending 50 years saying he will unilaterally support Israel over everything certaintly played into any discussions about how this would go. Along with trump being the opponent being pretty much the only way Dem voters would vote for a Dem who wants to fund a genocide and crack down on his own voters for protesting.
This shit isn’t ok.
How do you propose we communicate that to DNC and Biden while shutting up and voting for Biden?
Democrats do need a clearer distinction between themselves and Republicans on this issue.
You’re 1000% correct with this analysis
Dems can’t run in fear based politics about what the other side wants to do, the people that shit works on are already Republicans.
This is what’s so disheartening about the modern day DNC, as this seems to be their only campaign strategy since 2016. In a way, what they’re actually doing is normalizing and manufacturing consent for the repugnantcon platform.
“Not Trump” is the lowest possible bar, and the most pathetic part about it is sometimes Biden manages to fall short of it. Get off the fear based bs and lead with some substance Dems!
Where in the exact fuck does diaper don think he’s deporting US citizens to?
Hopefully a western European country.
Fun fact, if you’re targeted for deportation you can always voluntarily self deport. So if they create a diaspora there’s going to be 3 major populations of expats. Mexico, where the administration will dump them. Canada where the people who could only afford a road trip went. And the EU where people who can afford a plane ticket went.
He’ll put them up in one of his failing hotels then bill them for it.
The right wing has wanted to do this for a while. The rhetoric started with homeless people, (because everyone hates them, they’re icky), and expanded to anyone they don’t like. Hilariously, without a lot of other changes those people can still vote and if they’re getting government disability, will continue to receive that. It will also serve to make the US a pariah state as the one thing nobody wants is refugees. Even ones with money attached.
Trump scum cannot be reasoned with!
Swallow your pride and vote Biden.
I also hate the choice of lesser “evil”… but, do it!
Just repeat the mantra “three supreme court justices” over and over. Even if nothing else, the next president will almost certainly shape the court for decades to come. Alito, Sotomayor, and Thomas will all almost certainly retire or die in the next four years.
Yes, Trump agrees with neoliberals regarding anti-genocide protesters.
spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/ggu3wr/im_governor_jared_polis_of_colorado_former/
Yet, Jared Polis identifies as neo liberal. And identifies Pete Buttigieg as one too.
It’s the ‘kind face’ of colonial capitalism. In my opinion. Fascism the scary face. Both lead to corporate feudalism as far as I can tell. One faster and with less chance to use democracy to improve conditions for the poor through safety nets and unions.
But people aren’t all one thing. Biden has shown that with his relationship with unions.
spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
That’s fair. I’ve always been a bit surprised that Jared Polis self identifies that way tbh.
spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
Some folks really do all but worship the invisible hand it’s a bit bizarre.
They do seem to be of the opinion that it’s attached to the wrist of God, yes.
So all people who say then wont vote Biden because of Gaza, do you see know that Trump is even worse?
Always did, yes.
But yeah sit this one out because Biden isn’t dramatically changing long standing us policy.
Either way Palestinians get slaughtered, but only one way Democrats will oppose it.
So he’s gonna duplicate what’s going on right now?
Are you familiar with republican foreign policy?
Yes, it looks exactly like Democrat foreign policy, Republicans and Democrats use the same US imperialistic agenda to retain their power and dominance over other countries. When they both use people like Henry Kissinger as a foreign policy advisor, the end game is still the same
Keep it going! They are the same because history! They both USED Kissinger!
Foreign policy is clearly beyond your grasp.
With your approach… The end game seems to be ignorance.
Nuland, Blinken, Sullivan all have the same approach to foreign policy. Expand US imperialism and the interests of capital while slaughtering civilians.
They have so been slaughtered! This approach to US imperialism has totally solved for your concern.
spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
So the difference is that Trump will drop a MOAB and kill hundreds…
And Biden will send 300,000 massive bombs to a genocidal warlord to kill tens of thousands?
I’m not trying to defend Trump, but I’m confused by your logic.
deleted by creator
If that’s what you think, it’s readily apparent that you don’t actually care about Palestinians, you just want to use them to score political points.
If you actually want to help then and prevent as many of their deaths as possible, your choice is clear. If you had the option to pull two levers, where one would keep the status quo and one would save just one Palestinian life, which would you pull?
I oppose the status quo, as anyone with a conscience should
If your only options were the status quo or things getting worse, you’d pick things getting worse?
Red and blue are defenders of the status quo. The DNC always providing a rotating villain to be afraid of enables their power and keeps the status quo protected
It must be nice living in a world where the DNC is all that’s keeping us from achieving progressive goals, and that if they went away, all of our problems would be solved.
It’s an ignorant but comfortable worldview, isn’t it? All we have to do is beat the rotating villain and the DNC and then we’ll get everything we want and a happy ending. The bad status quo will go away and everyone will agree with us because our ideas are the best.
It needs to be replaced with a party that actually represents the people. There’s no room in the country for two right-wing parties and that’s what we currently have
Well, I’m glad then that the democrats aren’t violently suppressing free speech too.
Oh wait.
Right now, it’s local officials, not the executive branch doing it in a coordinated way. We don’t, for example, have the border patrol and FBI driving around in minivans with no insignia and name patch and snatching people off the street like we had during the Black Lives Matter protests under Trump.
It’s the legislative branch that just had a bipartisan movement to declare the protests illegal. Many democrats have publicly embraced the viewpoint that any anti-Israel speech is a hate crime. Even if Biden somehow manages to pull a win out of November, attacks by the president and congress are going to continue, and get much worse if people refuse to back down and adopt government sanctioned speech.
