Credit Andy Singer 2024
fun fact.
The US army gave people ammunition for free if it was used to kill bison for a period of time.
Bison almost went extinct.
Bison were a source of food for the natives.
I love american history!
Every 50 bison they killed they celebrated a bisontennial.
Bye son
Boooo!
Boocentennial?
this is awfull (of bones)
i tried, i’m not sorry
You’re offal
eh, close.
The official reason was the Bison herds were capable of destroying the fields of entire farms. We never stopped to ask if we should have been farming there in the first place.
I think they did stop to ask, and the answer they gave themselves was “yes”.
Certainly at every step of the way since we keep answering yes, despite all evidence to the contrary.
were bison known for like, destroying fences or something? Or did we just not think of building fences lmao.
Farmers don’t usually fence in their fields. You’re thinking of live stock farming.
well i mean that would make sense but like…
In terms of the chain of logic here.
bison are trampling your field:
- make them extinct
- build a fence
i feel like building a fence would probably make sense here.
I can’t believe you would trample on my freedom to extinct an animal like that.
hey man, don’t look at me like that, they already almost went through extinction ok.
Yes but that would -
Involve effort
Not get them some actually pretty tasty meat. (sorry vegans it’s true, they’re tasty.)
Not give them an excuse to cause suffering among the natives, whose land they were farming on anyways.
i mean, have you ever tried killing an animal? They sort of tend to uh. Move around.
Like you would need to essentially pay thousands of people over the period of years to cull the population of bison, and they did.
And to be clear, they didn’t even really kill them for meat, im sure some did, but a lot of it was just to kill them.
Correlation, causation, too many big words.
Killing off the Buffalo, which was a source of food, clothing and other vital cultural resources for many indigenous cultures, was an official government policy to destroy those cultures. Couple more words; ecocide, genocide.
history goes a little wacky
Which word was to big for you?
“The”
It’s just greed. They throw in god’s name to relieve themselves of any personal responsibility.
They also throw in God’s name to get the religious rubes on board.
Ok. Native here. Get out, both of you.
If I thought some other place would take me, I would.
The number of “100% native” people in the U.S. is likely 0. The idea of people leaving if they weren’t from here goes back forever, everywhere. Eventually it’s just a debate of if we are all from Africa or not.
“Go back to being a neanderthal dweeb!”
… Sadly, acceptance and growth are harder than resentment. And most of the time we resent the wrong people.
Go back to Ireland/Scotland? Sure. I need to bring news of what fun things Americans can do with potatoes back to the homeland anyways.
Potato cannon = good times
I was thinking about stuff like chili but that’s fun too.
Best I can do is a spud gun
Nah. We’ll just continue to dry wash our hands and apologize while doing nothing useful.
Sorry ‘bout stealin’ your shit. Want it back? Fuck you. Have some empty words.
god I wish
There are no natives playa, unless you are an amoeba
Reminds me of this.
It’s kind of disingenuous.
It portrays Orthodox Jewishness as being responsible for genocidal Zionism when Orthodox Jewishness has pretty much always been vehemently critical of both Zionism and the creation of Israel.
The Jewish Zionists that perpetrated the Nakba looked no different than their fellow Europeans.
Not really the main crux of the video, is it?
It’s a very important point, considering that the crux of all the white supremacist propaganda we’ve been fed about Israel rests on the idea that Israel (somehow) “represents” Jewishness… and I’d say this plays right into the hasbara’s hands.
that was a fun watch
I mean it was a very good video. But fun, I don’t know.
Beat me to it, great recommendation
I think at this stage we can just call manifest destiny “Americanism.”
I am kind of annoyed by the ismnisms lately.
You haven’t heard them all though until you’ve heard of Maggotyismnism.
We’re sick and tired of your ism and schism game
- Bob Marley
I’m not.
Fair.
Stay in school, friend. This was done countless times well before America became a nation.
Consider your apologetics rejected.
The situation isn’t comparable. The majority of Jews in Israel are not European (or from anywhere else), they’re native Israeli and they trace their roots to Israel back for millennia.
The problem is not that Israelis want to live there. They have a right to live there. The problem is that they’re depriving Palestinians of their right to live there instead of seeking peaceful coexistence.
Pretty sure modern Israel was founded by western powers as a place to send Jews after WWII.
Any sources
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized by Zionism during its history.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
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10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book
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Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
Ethnic Cleansing
Good Books on the History
-
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
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The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
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A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
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The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
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10 Myths of Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
Wdym sources? You want me to post links 100 year old documents pertaining to British Occupation of Palestine and subsequent League of Nations and later U.N. resolutions to move more Jewish people into Palestine? You need written accounts of the May 13th 1948 withdrawal of British Troops and May 14th establishment of Israel as the first “Jewish State” in 2,000 years?
How about a source on POTUS Truman publicly acknowledging Israel 11 minutes after it was founded. “Some advisors felt that creating a Jewish state was the only proper response to the holocaust and would benefit American interests” according to TrumanLibrary.gov
Why should I have to waste time educating your ass that can’t perform basic web searches?
Right but this is a separate issue. My original comment was about Israelis whose families have been living in that region of the world for millennia. They have a right to be there. They are not equivalent to colonists from Europe arriving in the Americas.
The Israeli government uses antisemitism as a weapon to attack their critics. They conflate criticism of the Israeli government with attacks on Jews. It’s bullshit, duplicitous rhetoric.
But here we are conflating Israelis who can trace their ancestry to that region for millennia with (a minority of) European Jews who moved there during/after WW2, and calling all of them colonists. Now we are being duplicitous!
It sounds like you’re describing a Secular One-State Solution with equal rights for both Israeli and Palestinian people, in the sense that both have the right to live there
One or Two State Solution
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
- Avi Shlaim
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
I’m not describing any state solution!
Nobody’s right to be anywhere supercedes other people’s, nor justifies killing.
Herzl played his part.
Arab counties shipped Jews to Palestine after they decided to kick them out of their own countries.
Where are the Jews supposed to go?
Little thought expiriment for you: maybe segregating an entire class of people into one secluded corner of the world is fucking stupid? Maybe taking something that requires the murder of thousands or millions isn’t worth the price?
So you refuse to answer my question.
Right.
The answer, which clearly wasnt obvious to you, was literally fucking anywhere and everywhere including where they are now in Israel: just stop treating Palestinians like dirt and second class citizens and the problems will all go away with time.
PM Rabin would have already sorted this shit out, but somebody had him killed and now all bets have been placed on Netan-fucking-yahu for some stupid fucking reason (for 2 decades at that).
We [as in entire human population] can all convert to Judaism but it won’t ever change our ancestry. It’s just a religion.
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Well, except Europeans never lived in America before Columbus, but Jews did live in Palestine/ Middle East
Which hardly matters when people are taking the homes of people living there currently and killing them. What difference does it make if some of someone’s ancestors centuries ago lived in that general part of the world?
You could justify European colonialism in Africa under similar logic, on the grounds that since humans evolved there before spreading out to the rest of the world, all Europeans have ancestors that lived on that continent at some point in the past and would merely be “reclaiming” it.
Some did, but the whole point of Israel was a place for European countries to send their Jewish populations.
People who even if they were also ethnically Semitic, were descended from people who voluntarily left the area generations ago.
They could have immigrated there, instead European governments just declared it was theirs now.
Like, imagine if every American with Irish heritage were granted birthright citizenship there and the people who never left are shoved down into an ever shrinking slice of land. That’s what’s happening
were descended from people who voluntarily left the area generations ago
There have been forced deportations from that area for millenia. They’re talked about in the Bible and the Romans did it.
Weird then how the majority of Palestinians are a genetically unbroken set of lineages from before the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Some deportations from very specific areas happened, like from Jerusalem to the West Bank during Roman rule.
I’m not sure the point you’re trying to make…I was just pointing out that “voluntarily leaving what is now Israel” is wildly misleading and wrong
My point is you’re incorrect. Jews have continuously lived in what is now Israel for 4000 years.
Where did I say anything about Jews not living there continuously? Idk what you’re talking about now
Jews did live in Palestine/ Middle East
Look up the history of the Beta Israelis / Ethiopian Jews and their treatment in the reconstituted state of Israel.
Compare that to the treatment of Afrikaner Israeli converts emigrating from South Africa and Russian/Ukrainian Jews fleeing violence in the current Russo-Ukraine War.
You’ll notice one of the groups was targeted for mandatory sterilization and it wasn’t the white folks.
I up voted, this has no justification
The Jewish settlers didn’t live in Palestine, they lived in Europe and then moved to Palestine to steal the land. They’re white.
Just because one ancestor a dozen generations ago lived somewhere doesn’t mean you have a right to evict the actual people living on that land.
“Israeli Jews are white” - Lmfao I can’t believe that people still believe that old racist trope
Palestinians didn’t live in Palestine during that time, either. they migrated when everyone else did.
A ton of them just converted from Judaism. This idea that Arabs flooded into Palestine after kicking all the Jews out is racist revisionist history.
that’s not what I said at all.
they migrated when everyone else did.
How am I supposed to read this as anything other than “Palestinians migrated into Israel when the Jews migrated out”? Which, I must reiterate, is a racist myth.
I don’t agree on wording in the first paragraph, but do agree with the second paragraph.
What now? Evicting all 8 millions of Israeli to make Hamas happy?
How about ending apartheid and making a multiethnic, multi-religious democratic state from the river to the sea? Israelis can become Palestinian, they don’t need to leave.
Hmm which state is apartheid again? The one that is 20% Arab where they have full rights… Or the one that is 100% Arab where anyone who is not like them is killed with extreme prejudice?
How about ending apartheid and making a multiethnic, multi-religious democratic state from the river to the sea? Israelis can become Palestinian, they don’t need to leave.
have you ever seen an israeli or a palestinian?
Neither like eachother. And honestly for good reasons. Good luck with that idea.
TL;DR this is basically like going “why dont the USSR and US just become one state” during the cold war.
They don’t like each other because one is a colonizer coming to steal land and ethically cleanse the population. If they stopped doing that I think they could get along.
Black people and whites mostly get along on the US these days. Different peoples can live together.
maybe, but we’re also forgetting that this has literally been a thing since the founding of israel, older than most of entire living families, and most of their grand parents as well.
I’m not really sure something like this could just be “swept under the rug” and forgotten in such a manner, though if they decided to do a one state solution, i’m not going to stop them either lol. I just think a two state solution is the only realistic solution here, given the historical context and pretext of the conflict.
Black and white people mostly get along now, which is true, but it took many, many years. For that to actually be the case, 1964 was the year the civil rights act was passed. But this was also a population that was subjugated and had their rights removed, not one that is militarily backed into a corner. So these are a little bit different.
Plus we also can’t really apply US culture onto the middle east, they just experience the world differently over there.
It would definitely require a process similar to denazification in Germany, where the people are reeducated and all members of the previous administrative apparatus are removed from power. Like the radical reconstruction in the South after America’s Civil War (before white terror overthrew their multiracial democracy I mean)
But Jews live in Germany now, and Germany is a great friend of Israel. Much like Black people in the US and whites, things can change.
We’re all human, I have no idea why you think “they just experience the world differently over there” like they’re aliens. I’m not making a 1-1 comparison but like, there ARE similarities!
Yes, how about we all end the wars, and just live happy on our beautiful Earth? 😊
As we all know, ending apartheid and constructing multiracial democracy is impossible. 🙄
Sounds horrible
That thinking is like believing you have the right to expel the people that lives in the house your grandmother lived on but left when she got married. But now the house is yours because “here lived my family”.
Yeah, but then add a dozen or more generations. Not your grandma, your many times removed ancestor from before the printing press or some shit.
I said grandmother to show an example that can’t be used with the “but it’s an historical thing”.
So you created an example that doesn’t match on purpose?
To show how dumb is that argument. “My ancestors from 2000 years ago lived there, therefore this land is mine” is as dumb as “my grandmother lived there, therefore this house is mine”. With the same reasoning, Italy could claim all the Mediterranean coast belongs to them. And if it’s from “God gave us this land”, Spain and Portugal divided the Earth (except Europe) for them “because God”. Does this mean Spain and Portugal can claim “their land” back?
Jewish people living in Palestine is no fig leaf to justify European genocidal colonialism.
Jewish people lived next to muslim people in arab countries for a very long time but then ww2 happened and the dumbass americans decided that doing what the nazis wanted to do originally is a good idea so they just kinda said that the european jews should move to this random desert where a lot of middle eastern jews live. You wouldnt deport all the south american, african, asian, etc christians to europe just because of their religion.
Pretty sure Leif Eriksson landed in Vinland before Columbus landed in the Bahamas.
In other words, I’ll be formulating a proposal to Mette-Mink to reclaim what only can belong to the (once) glorious Denmark!
Now imagine a civil war happens in the US and the only places spared are the Indian reservations. And when the war ends, with the army, the air force, the national guard, … all destroyed, the Indians start spreading their territory bombing the remnants of the US, with some help from Russia or China or…
Will you find the Indians have the right to carpet bomb NY or Dallas because they lived there 2 or 3 centuries ago?
I don’t think so?
Then what right have the Israelis to carpet bomb Palestine?
I don’t support carpet bombing neither. I do support the pager explosion thing tho.
So you support turning people into suicide bombers without them knowing it. What if the ones with the bomb were from your country? Remember that civilians were hurt too.
Yes, i really think it was a well targeted operation. Almost no civilian was hurt. If Ukraine could pull that off against Russian FSB, i would be ao happy
And if the targets are from the US? UK? Ukraine? France? What then? Still good? An attack to kill every US general but with hundreds of civilians wounded or killed?
I’ve met a guy who no shit said this to me as if it was a justification for Israel’s actions in Gaza.
Anyone mentioning the phrase “3000” years ago is saying it. The Zionist movement is less than 150 years old. The rest of that history is made up.
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The notion of a “promised land” is a lie humans tell to themselves to monopolise the resources we all share with all living things.
It also doesn’t make much sense in the particular context considering on a genetic level Palestinians are as Semitic as modern Ashkenazi jews. And it doesn’t make much sense from a religious stand point because modern Judaism differs from ancient Judaism by about the same amount as Christianity or Islam does. Modern Judaism just has this dogma that Ancient Judaism was secretly observing their form of it even though if we don’t take them at their word there isn’t a lot of evidence of that.
So from a religious standpoint it doesn’t make a lot of sense. And from an ethnic standpoint it makes even less sense.
And also we don’t let Europeans say “these are our ethnic lands” without calling them racist. So then why would we let people who are like 2% ethnic ancient jewish retroactively claim ethnic ownership of some land without calling them racist? They will claim it’s not about race and about religion. Ok, which is worse, a group of highly militant ethno-nationalists, or a group of highly militant theo-nationalists? Zionists are always one of two bad things and they will use arguments to play wackamole about which one to deflect the claims of one. Apparently if you are two bad things at once and it is unclear if you are both or just one of those things you get unlimited license to be both of those bad things.
Palestinians aren’t natives. they migrated at the same time as everyone else, 1 million people in 10 years.
Yep, it was the only habitable parcel of land in the world with zero inhabitants until 1832. Jewish people and Palestinians both saw this weird chunk of land and realized they could just move there since no one else was there.
that’s exactly what happened… 1 million Arabs migrated in less than 10 years. whatever population was there before them was completely out numbered by the Arabs. the migration was 30x the increase seen at the same time the “baby boomers” were booming. that’s 30x population count, not 30x the percentage.
Buddy. There were Arabs there.
and they were replaced by more Arabs, follow along:
Arabs can be both a victim and a perpetrator amongst themselves.
crazy right?
Or and this is nuts, but the Ottoman Empire was building up the area and urbanization was happening. Nobody got replaced, it was just more people moving in.
those are synonyms, or are we all pretending gentrification doesn’t exist again?
Oh no, they built more housing and improved the economy! The horror!
only in the spring
Linkerbaan, where are you yourself from?
He’s a Trump fanboy from the US who gets his kicks masquerading as a far-left liberal.
Based on what?
Check out his post history. Quite a few people know and keep banning him from different communities but he keeps popping back just like his orange hero.
Your post history is supporting israel. Are you sure you don’t want Trump to win?
Dude, you have nothing to say about post histories here. You spread more propaganda than Fox News.
You and your army of sock puppets don’t need to. The fact of what I said remains.
You spread nonsense. And you know it.
Based on the overwhelming amount of blatantly obvious misinformation he has posted and had removed weekly, and is banned for spreading propaganda, maybe?
Look, maybe you’re right, but I’m supposed to just take your word for it? From a cursory look at their profile I’m not seeing examples of what you’re talking about.
Look at the mod logs bud. They’re a propagandist. It’s not up for discussion. They have a reputation around here even amongst far leftists.
Mods love to nitpick reasons to ban them
Yeah. Right. It’s the mods being bullies. It’s Always funny to me how there’s always an excuses for people to be victims when they get called out for their own bad behavior.
It’s never their fault, right?
How do you look at mod logs? How am I supposed to know “they have a reputation?” I have no clue what you’re talking about, so for me it’s up for discussion, because my reaction is “what?” If you don’t care to explain that’s fine, but don’t expect every person who comes along to be read into the same stuff you are.
The OP? What’s that based on? All their posts are just critical of Israel
That said, given how lemmy works, there’s no real recourse anyway. This is a good, funny post, so I’ll upvote it. Since upvote points aren’t tracked there’s nothing we can really do to tell bad actors apart from people that actually contribute to communities/discussions. If it mattered, I’d maybe downvote but it doesn’t since every post they make ends up being treated individually by the community (unless you track usernames or something and I personally don’t pay for that feature)
You’d have to comment on all their posts if you wanted it to stick, and then if it’s not obvious like here, you’d have to provide reasoning each time. I don’t get it but most people really didn’t like points being added up for some reason
If the only things I knew about them was Trump-fanboyism, spends free time accusing the USA of various genocides, and masquerading as a far-left then I would assume he was a regular Chinese Tankie long before I accused them of being an American.
Note how there’s been no answer?
I’m guessing some red state where they pay people to spread propaganda.
Yeah, who would pay people to spread propaganda
Netanyahu’s War on TruthIsrael’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians
Whatever red state Linker is from I would imagine. Did you have some difficulty understanding me the first time?
If its a red state they probably expect the people to pay to spread their propaganda for them.
it’s all in the name
This is dumb propaganda on so many levels. Zionism isn’t a religious movement. Israelis are not primarily white. This equation is just dumb af
It does however paint what IS the same.
Three statements and all of them wrong that’s impressive.
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So dominant (heart) :)
Who are you trying to convince to do what, exactly?
I’d hope its to convince the government of Israel to get rid of corrupt leader Netanyahu, and to work towards an equitable two state peace agreement with an independent Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza.
Or failing that, to convince people that unconditional support of the current Israeli government is bad, actually. Something many Israeli themselves believe (not to mention non-Israeli Jews).
I feel like comparing murderers to other murderers wont swing any moderates to your side, but idk. If anything, making memes about genocide seems pretty dehumanizing.
You’re not wrong in that if the Palestinian death toll hasn’t swayed someone already, they’re probably not going to be swayed.
More importantly my point being that isnt the author of the meme’s intention to start with.
So, if they kill in the name of God, why aren’t we calling them “terrorists” by now like we do with any other religious group, i.e. muslims … or … mhhhm… or… wait… do we call anyone else terrorists, besides muslims?
