XMPP vs Matrix: Why Matrix sucks – Simplified Privacy
video.simplifiedprivacy.com

XMPP and Matrix are two competing federated end-to-end encrypted messengers. XMPP is far better, on server cost decentralization, speed over Tor, degoogled push notifications, multi-identities, and overall privacy. So if Matrix is inferior centralized bloatware, why is it more popular? Especially among techies, who should in theory understand these concepts.

This brand new video gives a quick overview of the technical reasons that XMPP is the gold standard king of federation. And it briefly discusses how Matrix manages to push it’s agenda: https://video.simplifiedprivacy.com/xmpp-vs-matrix-why-matrix-sucks/

Some critics will say that “Matrix is a complete package, while XMPP is fragmented”. This is essentially propaganda, because all the XMPP clients interact (Dino, Gajim, conversations, monocles). The only one that doesn’t interact is OTR encryption from pidgin which provides an alternative for hardcore cypherpunks who want to destroy the encryption keys when the conversation is done. So because one single client has an alternative use case, the Matrix cheerleaders want us to fill out Google Captcha spyware to register on Matrix.org because it costs so much to self-host.

  • Derin@lemmy.beru.coEnglish
    22·
    2 years ago

    This video: “Matrix really bad, xmpp really good. Trust me bro.”

    Probably one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever had to watch - regardless of the arguments being made. Also, the narrator sounds like a broken TikTok AI voice.

    Just some responses:

    • you don’t have to use matrix.org, there are other sites you can sign up for (and thus avoid Google captcha)
    • you don’t have to use element, there are other clients (including element forks, if you want some of its beta features)
    • You can use ntfy and host your own push notifications - but for instant notifications on Android you’ll always need GMS as Android won’t allow an alternative. (and, no, I’d rather not root my phone, thanks)
    • re: xmpp is easier to setup: first pick a server, then deploy it, then pick a client. Just like Matrix. Almost like they’re both very similar.
    • re: synapse being hard to run: a $5 a month Hetzner box is enough for it.
    • re: dendrite not having enough features: it hasn’t been released yet and is still under development? The fuck are you smoking over there?
    • re: matrix requires an email to sign up: it does not, only the server you’ve arbitrarily chosen to focus on does

    So much trash in this video, it’s crazy.

    If you like XMPP, use it. If you like Matrix, use it.

    Edit: I also like how the video author ignores all other matrix clients, but then pretends like XMPP has one client (unnamed, of course) that handles all of Element’s short comings.

    Seriously, if you like XMPP so much, just go use it. Why make such a bizarre post?

    Edit 2: Most of the links on your website are broken - giving an Nginx 502 error - so I wasn’t able to figure out what you’re trying to sell us. Maybe instead of making videos like this you can go and learn how to deploy Nginx properly?

    • sir_reginald@lemmy.worldEnglish
      2·
      2 years ago

      idk about the rest but the $5 Hetzner box running Synapse is inaccurate. While you can definitely run either Prosody or Synapse in the same box, Prosody consumes much less resources, which means that if, for example, a $5 box can run a 500 users Prosody (XMPP) server, that same box running Synapse could allocate only around 100 users

      (not actual numbers, I haven’t done any real benchmark other than installing both of them in my Raspberry Pi, mess around with both and test how Prosody’s resources consumption is much lower, both on “idle” and when receiving traffic)

      • Derin@lemmy.beru.coEnglish
        3·
        2 years ago

        Sorry, I meant for personal use. It’s absolutely okay for a synapse server running 1~5 users connecting to large rooms and using multiple Appservices for bridging in other networks.

        Source: Been doing that for 3+ years.

        If you’re looking for something for 500 users, I wouldn’t recommend a $5 VPS.

        • sir_reginald@lemmy.worldEnglish
          1·
          2 years ago

          I get your point and your use case, but I like to look further in the viability of the network.

          yeah of course, a $5 box can’t host 500 users, they weren’t actual numbers. But in my tests on limited hardware, Synapse consumed almost twice as much RAM and CPU for (barely) the same usage. So I’d imagine that when scaling things up a large XMPP server can be run with much less hardware than a similarly sized Matrix server.

          This is quite relevant for the longevity of the network. Cheaper hosting means more people can afford to voluntarily run servers and also less amount of donations can cover the costs.

          • Derin@lemmy.beru.coEnglish
            1·
            2 years ago

            You’re not wrong, but if we’re talking about the longevity of the network then I’d recommend looking at non-synapse servers. Synapse is designed to scale horizontally, not vertically.

            If you want something with more bang for your buck, with the potential for vertical scaling for small to medium size deployments, then Dendrite and Conduit are more viable alternatives.

    • SummerBreeze@monero.townOPEnglish
      11·
      2 years ago

      You can’t join group chats of any decent size on Synapse. Put your money where your mouth is, how much you want to bet that you can’t setup synapse on a $5 hetzner and join the official Matrix.org group chat?

      • Derin@lemmy.beru.coEnglish
        3·
        2 years ago

        Yep, I’ve got 4gb of RAM and 2 vCPUs and am in Synapse Admins with 10.9k users. Sooo… Yeah?

        Again, though, if you want to use XMPP just use it - stop lying to people to get them into your camp.

        It’s not a fucking soccer team.

  • flatbield@beehaw.orgEnglish
    3·
    2 years ago

    What is the story with XMPP anyway. For a while, maybe 10 or more years ago it looked like the thing. Then it kind of imploded. Do people actually use it?

    I know FSF may still have a server. DuckDuckGo did for a while. Maybe still does.

    Biggest issues I ever had with it were firewall traversal. Most servers did not offer tls 443 at the time. The video chat extension was not wide spread either. Good public servers were sometimes hard to find too plus there was some spam.

    • Derin@lemmy.beru.coEnglish
      5·
      2 years ago

      It still exists; it’s fine - for all intents and purposes. It fizzled out because most of the features people wanted were optional extensions to the protocol, so you wouldn’t have every feature with every client/server.

      Say what you want about Matrix, having one company pushing it with a core API and user-facing application that is “good enough” (I’m not a fan of Element myself, but it does the trick for normal people looking to sign up) makes it easier to adopt.

      Case in point, check out the software page of the XMPP.org website. For each piece of software there’s a small dropdown showing you how compliant it is with each standard. That kind of decision making - beyond just “which one looks/feels the nicest” - is kind of what’s been holding XMPP back all these years. (in my opinion)

      Shame, too, as XMPP has always been pretty great.

      • flatbield@beehaw.orgEnglish
        1·
        2 years ago

        Thanks. Yes it had a lot of potential. Was always confusing too… what client… what server… what should work.

  • petrescatraian@libranet.de
    2·
    2 years ago

    @SummerBreeze I am not on Matrix.org (despite the fact I don’t know whether I have completed any captcha or not).

    But yea, on XMPP the gold standard is pretty much OMEMO these days. And the fact that both Google and Facebook adopted it at some point in time tells a lot about how mature the project is.

  • fiat_lux@kbin.social
    1·
    2 years ago

    From XMPP.org, a couple of choice extension specifications:

    XEP-0161: Abuse Reporting

    Abstract: This document specifies an XMPP protocol extension for reporting abusive XMPP stanzas.
    Status: Deferred
    WARNING: This document has been automatically Deferred after 12 months of inactivity in its previous Experimental state.
    Superseded By: XEP-0268

    XEP-0268: Incident Handling

    Status: Deferred
    WARNING: This document has been automatically Deferred after 12 months of inactivity in its previous Experimental state.
    Last Updated: 2012-05-29

    Internet communication is not a simple thing, I greatly respect the need for standards to be defined and measured. And these specification documents provide really good guidance on considerations. But it is not feasible to find wide-spread success if there isn’t even basic consensus on how to report spam after a hiatus of 10 years on v0.6 of a spec. There is a whole lot of process involved for a protocol that has very little decided.