Zhang Yazhou was sitting in the passenger seat of her Tesla Model 3 when she said she heard her father’s panicked voice: The brakes don’t work! Approaching a red light, her father swerved around two cars before plowing into an SUV and a sedan and crashing into a large concrete barrier.
Stunned, Zhang gazed at the deflating airbag in front of her. She could never have imagined what was to come: Tesla sued her for defamation for complaining publicly about the car’s brakes — and won. A Chinese court ordered Zhang to pay more than $23,000 in damages and publicly apologize to the $1.1 trillion company.
Zhang is not the only one to find herself in the crosshairs of Tesla, which is led by Elon Musk, among the richest men in the world and a self-described “ free speech absolutist.” Over the last four years, Tesla has sued at least six car owners in China who had sudden vehicle malfunctions, quality complaints or accidents they claimed were caused by mechanical failures.
This would be seen as too absurd even for a 90s or 2000s dystopian sci-fi movie. Tesla’s advancements in automotives has always been about sending out half-baked tech and having the people test it at their expense, while other EV manufacturers did it the traditional way of actually testing the shit in proper facilities before putting it on the market…
Is the braking system in a teslas “half-baked tech” for owners to test? I thought the brakes were pretty standard
Die in a Tesla? Believe it or not, jail.
I hope this eats the shit out of their Chinese market. It dropped quite a bit in other areas but like 10-11% in China. I want to see everyone dump Tesla.
I used to admire him when I was younger. Now, I would queue in line to kick him in the gonads.
Elon should sue himself for defaming himself
The brakes in these things have a lot of safety features and logging added to them.
If the brake was pressed, it’s easy to prove with the cars logs. It’s how most of the unintended acceleration stuff goes.
If you press the brake and the accelerator at the same time the brake will win as well.
She put seals on the doors to prevent Tesla from accessing the interior saying she didnt trust Tesla, and she refused 3rd party independent testing that Tesla offered to pay for.
Nothing about this specific incident helps her credibility at all.
Also, this story is old.
This would be much better with citations.
Chevy hasn’t made those for 40 years!
Luckily Cessna still makes them
I feel like I’m missing out on a great joke here.
I don’t know about great joke, maybe mildly funny reference.
I think you did pretty good on that one. I got a chuckle.
https://insideevs.com/news/505015/tesla-response-china-protestor/
The car eventually went to a local service shop, but Tesla says Zhang sealed the doors so nobody would be able to get inside the car.
Tesla also says she refused an offer to have the car’s brakes independently tested by a third party.
From Tesla Directly
On March 6, Ms. Zhang once again declared that she would reject any form of vehicle testing, and requested to return the vehicle and compensate for mental damage, medical expenses, and lost work expenses. In the Tesla store, a banner that reads “Brake Failure” was posted on the car body, and attention was drawn by means of pulling up banners and using speakers to spread Tesla’s negative comments, affecting the normal operating order of the store. Tesla staff have offered to advance the third-party inspection fees several times, but Ms. Zhang has always refused. Because of the greater impact of his “rights protection” behavior, the local police station sent out police officers to provide on-site persuasion on many occasions.”
“Since February, we have been doing our best to actively communicate with Ms. Zhang and her family. We sincerely hope that we can promote vehicle inspection as soon as possible and give a result to the friends who care about Tesla."
Edit: And obviously, this is just Tesla’s statements on the matter, but I haven’t ever seen anything to contradict their claims, and she lost in court and was forced to apologize. I imagine if you read Chinese you could find more sources or even court documents reiterating the seals/refusal stances.
“Independent” “third party” seems unlikely, she made the right call. No brake company wants to be on the bad side of a major auto manufacturer.
Okay, but what are your expectations when you refuse to let an OEM look at the vehicle after an accident, refuse 3rd party testing, and then go around disrupting events and stores making claims you can’t back up and refuse to let anyone to verify?
Why didn’t Tesla present its telemetry data? They are the ones suing so the burden of proof is on them.
She refused access to the car, that level of data probably needs access. Its very low level stuff like dual independent voltages read by the brakes as the pedal is depressed. 100% though it WAS there if they had access to the vehicle.
It also might not even be possible if data sharing is off or without consent.
If a Chinese court would side with an American company against its own citizens it means one of two things:
- The girl’s father was really at fault.
- The judicial system in China is fucked up beyond repair.
Japan has similar laws curbing free speech. It comes down to the east asian concept concept of ‘face’.
Japan’s defamation/libel laws, similar to this Tesla case China, don’t matter if what you said is true. What matters is that you disrespected the ‘face’ and reputation of those in power.
For example, if a news agency reports on a rapist, or an individual puts up a bad review online: it doesn’t matter if it is true. The ‘victim’ sues you for libel/defamation for speaking the truth because you didn’t “give them face” and you hurt their public reputation. Expect the police to come knocking and ask you to remove your truthful reviews, or you risk jail time or civil penalties.
Edit:
The judicial system in China is fucked up beyond repair.
I suspect the judicial system here is working exactly as intended. Its the laws in Japan/China that are fucked when it comes to free speech vs protecting the ‘face’ of those in power.
Edit 2: I dug up some China specific info: “In Understanding and Application of the 1993 Answers, the SPC [Supreme People’s Court] clarified that truth was NOT a defense to defamation. If a work insults and damages a person’s reputation, it is defamatory even if true.”
I’m having trouble finding more info about the specifics of the ruling in the Tesla case (AP, CBS, English media don’t provide any info), but I’d bet my dollarydoos that the ruling relates to the Chinese civil code concerning the rights of ‘reputation’ and ‘honor’ of Tesla being infringed in this instance. The AP article misses a lot of this nuance and detail, which is unfortunate. Something like The Atlantic or the Economist, Foreign Affairs (or NYT 20 years ago) with long form articles and investigative journalism from the days of old might have provided this detail, but these days BBC, CNN, et al care more about click-thru rates so we don’t get the full picture.
Japan’s defamation/libel laws, similar to this Tesla case China, don’t matter if what you said is true. What matters is that you disrespected the ‘face’ and reputation of those in power.
That is the stupidest fucking idea I have ever heard
Yeah I found it preposterous when I heard of such laws in Japan. Also the fact that you can get YEARS in prison for such a thing is even more fucked up. The disparity between three years and 500,000 yen, which is close to 3500$US is also ridiculous.
In some Asian cultures, saving face is the most important thing in the world. Doesn’t matter if people die, as long as nobody important loses face.
There are a lot of cultures that do a lot of stupid shit. This is stupid shit.
I stand by my original statement.
I wasn’t disagreeing with you, more like elaborating tbh.
I find it ridiculous too. It’s also one of the reasons everyone in the software industry has bad experiences with outsourced Indian software engineers - they’ll tell you it can be done, whatever ‘it’ is. They don’t ask for guidance because that would be losing face. And then you have Indian engineers reinventing bicycles, except the wheels are square. The other reason is socioeconomic in nature and irrelevant to the discussion here.
Wasn’t trying to sound like I disagreed with your point, more just reiterating how stupid it is.
And yeah, I’ve seen that a lot with Indian offshores. One guy is like that, and the other vacillates between competent/does not need direction and asking for clarification on shit he’s done previously.
There are other countries, not in East Asia, where that’s also true: for example, in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf monarchies. Reputation and respect for hierarchy is a big thing in old-school Arab culture, though in other parts of the Arab world such as Lebanon, there is a rich repertoire of invective and shit-talking that’d make a New York cabbie blush.
It’s the same kind of attitude that leads to people murdering their fucking daughter for showing her hair or some shit.
Honor culture garbage. Shit that we should have left behind centuries ago.
Agreed. I live in Japan and self censor what I say online, avoid leaving negative but truthful business reviews, because there is a very real risk of being sued for libel.
Truth is also not a defense for defamation in the UK, though the law was changed about a decade ago to limit the potential for abuse. The UK is a popular venue to sue for defamation because it gives the plaintiffs a relatively easy ride.
In your second link it contradicts what you say about it not mattering if it’s true, right below the section you quoted:
“If the act relates to matters of public interest and has been conducted solely for the benefit of the public, the truth or falsity of the alleged facts shall be examined, and punishment shall not be imposed if they are proven to be true. (See Article 230-2 of the Criminal Code). Article 32 of the Criminal Code provides for the Statute of Limitations for filing a criminal action for defamation which shall prescribe in ten (10) years.”
Yes, if you only consider the letter of the law. But the spirit of the law and the pro-business, pro-those-in-power courts rarely rule in the individual’s favor. The laws weren’t made for you the individual.
Don’t Get Sued! Libel, Slander, and Defamation Laws in Japan
More relevant discussion here about the concept of face.
edit: Key comment here:
“The law in Japan has a cultural and legal background in much older laws about “damage to honour”. Anything that damages someone’s social standing, regardless of whether a specific claim is being made, is not on and is liable to be considered defamatory. Further, the lack of a specific claim makes the “truth and public interest” bar much, much harder to meet since you can’t claim that your statement was truthful or in the public interest if there’s no specific claim the business or person can respond to. If you’re just being insulting you’re one a one-way trip to a legal spanking.”
I live in Japan and self censor what I say online, avoid leaving negative but truthful business reviews, because there is a very real risk of being sued for libel.
2**
And another superpower near you will be like this in a decade
Well, the article does say that Tesla enjoys the patronage of powerful members of the CCP. Like any capitalist society, China is ruled by the elite, and the elite are friendly with Tesla.
It’s definitely the second. There’s a reason people joke about “Tiananman Square 1989”. Everything is censored to hell and back
With Musk, I’m guessing #2.
It’s not whether the girls father is at fault, read the article. She put a lot of effort into publicly defaming the company to try to get damages. While it seems like they should have had a better response, including sharing the evidence they had, there has to be a better way to get justice
she draped her damaged car with a banner proclaiming “Tesla brake failure” in front of the Tesla dealership in Zhengzhou, the capital of Henan province, some 200 km (124 miles) from her home. She sat on the Tesla’s roof and blared her protest through a bullhorn: “Tesla Model 3 brakes failed,” she said. “A family of four almost died.” The next month, she parked her damaged car outside an auto show in Zhengzhou
she draped her damaged car with a banner proclaiming “Tesla brake failure” in front of the Tesla dealership in Zhengzhou, the capital of Henan province, some 200 km (124 miles) from her home. She sat on the Tesla’s roof and blared her protest through a bullhorn: “Tesla Model 3 brakes failed,” she said. “A family of four almost died.” The next month, she parked her damaged car outside an auto show in Zhengzhou
All those things are perfectly reasonable if there actually was a brake failure. That car almost killed her family. If Tesla doesn’t want to be called out don’t put dangerous vehicles on the road.
Of the many issues Tesla has, this is not one of them. They have the telemetry for proof: I blame them for not being more forthcoming with it, and hopefully that would be mandatory in any trial.
However you’re applying Western standards, and many other in this thread talk about “saving face” and that liable is not contingent on the truth in China. She knew what the law is and decided to ignore it hoping that a Western style pr protest would work. Apparently she was wrong, and the result is consistent with what she should have expected.
There does not need to be any kind of worldwide trend for one vehicle to have brake issues.
And as the other reply implied, I wouldn’t trust a single fucking thing Tesla said about their telemetry data on the accident.
If they provided the data and it was reviewed by a neutral third party that found them not to be at fault fair enough but aren’t those cars supposed to have self driving features that would prevent something like this?
Yes, if it senses something in the way, it first beeps, then will apply brakes.
- Tesla has evidence either way, but is not sharing. They simply said no to paying damages.
- The victim is trying to publicly shame Tesla into paying damages on the claim of a faulty vehicle
At least around here, you’d expect to sue, then Tesla would have to give evidence. I assume it’s same there
Instead the victim tried a public shaming without evidence. Here in the US, that’s not liable unless she knew it was false. Apparently there, damaging a corp’s reputation is liable, regardless of the truth (amusingly autocorrect keeps trying to spell “corp” as “corrupt”)
Reason 412 why I’ll never get in a Tesla.
Consumer protection is key for any country.
Too bad the US seems to have shut down its consumer protection agencies.
Yeah but China pretends it’s still communist so they don’t have “consumers” because that’s a capitalist ideal. ☝️🤓
It is not common practice for automakers — in China or elsewhere — to sue their customers. But Tesla has pioneered an aggressive legal strategy and leveraged the patronage of powerful leaders in China’s ruling Communist Party to silence critics, reap financial rewards and limit its accountability.
This was very explicitly in China. That’s not to say we’re doing much better though.
We have the same thing here in America but instead it’s a matter of law. Forced arbitrary, gag agreements, years of backlog, upfront fees and cost of getting representation, legal hurdles and delays, and laughable payouts is the same thing. Just a different flavor.
Help me Futo’s Louis Rossmann, you’re my only hope.
This was in China though.
I don’t see any reason to think they didn’t realize that.
For now.
coming soon…
Freeze Peach Musk and the SLAPP Suit.
Am I just too old for this or does it legitimately not mean anything?
“SLAPP suit” is an official legal term…
TIL. Also gross, I hate this world.
Thanks!
Fun fact: electric brakes, “brake by wire”, dont have mechanical backups.
I trust the rusty hydraulic brake lines on my XJ Cherokee more than i trust Tesla to not have electrical glitches.Edit: I’m not certain Teslas are using brake-by-wire and i was assuming they were based on an article i read a while ago.
I will continue shit-talking Teslas, regardless.
One reason to trust hydraulic brakes is that Federal regulations require redundancy and graceful degradation. A vehicle has two hydraulic brake systems, each controlling diagonally opposite wheels. I don’t know much about Tesla brakes, except that they use regenerative braking as well as disks.
Depends on the vehicle. My Nissan Leaf (full electric) and Chevy Volt (plug in hybrid) both brake primarily with regenerative braking, but pushing the brake pedal past a certain point engages conventional brakes.
I don’t think it’s even possible to come to a full stop in either vehicle without engaging the physical brake. Regenerative braking doesn’t do much when you get under 10 MPH or so.
Regenerative braking and brake by wire are 2 very different things. One is the brake pedal engaging an energy generating device based on current resistance/momentum until certain physical conditions are met, the other is the brake pedal being attached to essentially a trigger like on a game consoles controller, that tells a computer how hard you pressed the pedal, which then thinks about it and tells the calipers to engage the amount it thinks you meant.
I would think it’s possible for them to come to a full stop with regen breaking smaller personal electric vehicles can lock their wheels coming to a stop ie skateboards and the like
Just talking from my own experience with these two vehicles, they will continue creeping along until I feel the physical brake engage.
It makes a certain amount of sense that a car that isn’t moving can’t generate power by stopping, and no regeneration means no regenerative braking. Were the car completely stopped it would have to start moving a little to get braking power, and imperfect efficiency would mean it’s never going to be enough to stop the vehicle completely.
I know what you’re talking about with smaller electric vehicles, but I think that locking operates on different principles. I don’t think many of those have regenerative braking because the math doesn’t make it practical at that scale. I definitely don’t put myself forward as an expert though.
Ah yea I wasn’t sure I know that they can use regen but it may operate on different principles cause i know my backfire board does advertise it and when used properly does actually add a few miles which on a skateboard does help a lot but I’m no expert either just have to many miles on my board pushing 1200 in under 2 years
The Nissan Leaf is not brake-by-wire—the brake pedal is directly connected to the car’s hydraulic braking system.
If your electric brake-assist failed you would still have conventional hydraulic brakes.
But Tesla is not brake by wire like that. The brake pedal is connected directly to the hydraulic system, right?
I think you’re right, actially. I incorrectly assumed Tesla was full brake-by-wire at this point.
Jk wrangler. Electrical issues out the ass, but nothing that’d be fatal.
At risk at seeming like I sympathize for Musk (I don’t), anyone else read parts of the article that raise questions?
In the United States, Musk has found a powerful ally in Trump. Together, they have ransacked the federal government
ransacked? Doesn’t that usually mean plunder? They’re damaging the government in many horrible ways, however, Musk outright stealing from the government would lead to easy challenges making headlines: I wish he’d make it that easy.
Ransack for as in vigorously searching through something could be another sense, but it wasn’t used that way here. I guess it could mean rush through, causing damage. Curious word choice that I can overlook. Reading on…
She filed a complaint with a local market regulator, requesting a refund and compensation. Teslas are among the most computerized cars on the market, so Zhang asked the automaker to turn over the full pre-crash data from her car, hoping it might help explain what went wrong. Tesla refused.
“Tesla’s employees were very arrogant and tough in dealing with my complaints,” Zhang said in an interview. “I was burning with anger.”
no mention of Zhang receiving compensation
So it looks like Tesla is resisting compensating Zhang & releasing pre-crash data.
A top executive speculated to Chinese media that she “had someone behind her” and said Zhang was making a fuss because she just wanted higher compensation.
Wait, did Zhang receive any compensation? I thought she hadn’t. I still don’t know. Does the article clearly say?
Back in court as a defendant, Zhang was unable to prove that the brakes on her Tesla had indeed failed.
Besides Zhang’s words of her father’s panic that the brakes aren’t working, did she have solid evidence that the brakes did not work? Post-crash analysis? Independent analysis of untampered logs directly off the car’s hardware?
While I was ready to condemn Musk & Tesla and to ridicule the Chinese government over this, this isn’t satisfying. Not to understate all the other reasons to condemn them, which are clear & also covered in the article, this article leaves unanswered a number of critical questions that it could answer.
Wtf
