And I hate their blue-rich eye searing headlights to.
Within the “truck” class of vehicles, EPA fuel efficiency standards are based on weight. It’s easier to build heavy trucks and SUVs that meet those standards, than light trucks.
Effectively, the US government legislated heavier trucks and SUVs.
Thanks Obama!
Probably Bush more likely. Oil 🛢 fanatics
Probably? You know you could actually look it up, it’s well documented. Obama’s EPA rules are responsible for this. They’re well intentioned but poorly designed
They were poorly designed on purposes tho
That’s how all laws in the US come out after lobbies get done editing them for their benefit as expense of the taxpyer.
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Lolol bruh i could care less about unenforced EPA “regulations”. I said “probably… more likely” as a counterpoint and a joke really. Why don’t you research the personal conflicts of interest for my point first that I was talking about before you go all “dO yOuR rEsEaRcH”?
Ya’know what ill help you out since you didnt provide any burden of proof like an arguer SHOULD do.
Bush administration unveiled a controversial National Energy Plan, which consisted chiefly of $33 billion in public subsidies and tax cuts for the oil, coal, and nuclear power industries, as well as provisions to open up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for industrial oil drilling.
Ofc they’re both guilty, they are the establishment and two sides of the same coin. Doesn’t mean one can’t have more vested interest potentially. Also lol what EPA rules did Bush even try to pass tho? Besides opening the Arctic for drilling primarily.
I think this is USA only. Maybe mention that in the title. They don’t sell half of those cars here.
I wish. More shitty American pickups in the Netherlands each year, further encouraged by a tax loophole.
I hope the gas prices bleed these fuckers dry…
It’s the same in Australia. Tax incentives given to businesses during the pandemic mixed with a large influx of yank tanks available on the market means that there are heaps of these monster trucks getting around. I honestly don’t know how they cope, the roads and parking around here aren’t designed for such large vehicles and this is out in the countryside; I can’t see them fitting in narrow city streets.
yank tanks
I love it. I’d use it here in the U.S. but no one calls each other Yanks internally.
I’m gonna start using it regardless.
I think we need something else. What about Patriot Panzers?
Haha, that’s also a good one!
Yank here. I use canyonero or monster truck depending on the type of vehicle.
I bet some people here would drive literal tanks if they could.
Yeah I’ve seen Trucks more often in Sweden as well as other SUVs. The most common car used to be a station wagon of some sort but it seems to be more compact suvs now too
I’m even noticing more trucks and SUVs in Japan now. There are very few of the super doody retard mobiles that seem very common in the US, but I have seen them, and there are plenty of people driving chunky Jeep and Mercedes trucks which still look too large for the streets here. I really hope there is not a trend, but SUVs definitely seem to be increasing in number.
Thankfully very small kei cars are still popular.
We just had a laugh about this this week at work - it’s just such a ridiculous size compared to European cars.
Even our cars are getting noticeably bigger. It’s a stark difference if you see old refurbished cars from the 80s compared to their contemporary counterparts.
But in part that’s because modern cars are so much safer.
Safer for those driving, less safe for everyone else.
This is fine to a degree, but it’s really sad that even 2000s cars are small compared to modern cars, which are basically all turning into SUVs and becoming increasingly unsafe for other road users. The Porsche SUV is the most ridiculous looking vehicle I’ve seen showing this trend, whereas the Mini > New Mini seemed like it was more about safety and practicality if you ever rode in an original Mini.
That’s just false when a fucking smartcar can pass NTSB crash test ratings.
Ireland and the UK are headed this way, if not there already.
The pickups make everyone look like posers but the SUVs are decent enough. I drove a couple, I wouldn’t say there is more space but seeing them on the road so often makes me consider it the safer option for a family car. I don’t want to going under one of them in a crash. That said I only think that this is how their popularity explodes.
That’s exactly it. They are actually less safe, but feel more safe, since you sit higher up. They also make smaller cars seem less safe, so it ends up being an arms race.
Absolutely, I think we should tax cars based on their engine size/ weight to volume ratio. Disincentivise this shite.
I dunno about Ireland. I live there and I don’t really see people drive that many SUVs.
The number one selling car in Ireland has been the Tucson for the last number of years.
It used to be mondeos, S90s, corollas now it’s Kugas, Tucsons, Sorrentos, XC40s, and RAV4s.
Not to mention the absolute loser in Ford Rangers and Raptors. I can see the use in the SUVs but the Hilux and Raptors are such small dick energy. Lads in construction that don’t do work.
As an American, Tucsons and Rav4 are the small SUVs. Just wait until you have people that barely know how to drive riding around in Suburbans and Sequoias
They are most likely not road legal here assuming they are bigger than these small SUVs. Definitely not fit for anything more than national roads.
That’s probably true, I doubt they’d fit in most parking spaces or make it down a tight street without taking out some mirrors
Another American. Those are small SUVs. Compare those to a Suburban, Tahoe or the like.
I live along the North Circular Road in Dublin and the things are fucking everywhere.
I would say that pickup trucks have far more utility than SUVs! Some SUVs are large and 2 wheel drive, with a weak engine. What is their purpose?
Nissan juke for example… a horrendous car.
I have driven my mother’s little Juke around the US. I, personally, find that it is a peppy little thing, though it resembles an angry frog.
I may have gotten lucky, but never had a problem with it through a couple Midwest winters.
I’m just glad she isn’t driving a big ol Jeep or Escalade, which she would choose if left to her own devices. She is a small woman and thinks a big car gives her an advantage. Over what? I don’t know. I guess boomers are gonna boom.
I live in the UK, and our roads are small. We had small cars:
- the old mini
- fiats Etc
But SUVs seem overly large without the added benefit of 4x4, or the carrying capacity/utility of a pick up truck
I hope the SUV trend goes… not everyone needs or wants a car that large!
I remember last time I was in London (in the '00s), the streets are so narrow that the bus couldn’t get up the hill to the house where I was saying because too many cars were parked on the road and it wouldn’t fit. So I imagine SUVs in London are a nightmare.
And this wasn’t even central London, this was Harrow.
The few people still driving original Minis must have some butt clenching moment driving in modern traffic. I do love the design of the original mini, but if you get in one now you basically feel naked, as they are so low down, and there is no padding between the metal of the exterior and the interior, not to mention the lack of any modern safety features like airbags and crumple zones.
I mean, I have a motorbike - so I think an OG mini is probably still safer than that! :D
Maybe if you took a SUV, and split it in half lengthways (two passengers, one behind the other) - then the vehicle would be suitable for UK roads (and hopefully not weight 4 tonnes)
My wife has a Toyota Rav4 SUV. I don’t love SUVs, but I do admit it’s been really useful for hauling stuff and it is 4WD so it’s much safer in the winter than my smaller Prius.
Now I like tiny cars. My Prius is too big for my comfort level a lot of the time. My dream car is an electrified Nash Metropolitan. But I do have to admit having an SUV has been useful, and with a family of 3, we can still all go to my daughter’s friend’s house and pick her up and take her to breakfast without having a monster-sized pickup truck.
I don’t know if it’s still possible, but (I think) the Lowes chain of hardware stores had rentable pickup trucks. That should be more common. Maybe it would encourage fewer purchase of pickup trucks.
I wish. They are seen as status symbols in other countries and have great margins for the sellers.
We got here because fuel economy requirements are tied to the size and type of vehicle, and so it’s easier to make and sell larger, less efficient vehicles.
https://afdc.energy.gov/data/mobile/10562
Why make a smaller vehicle with a smaller margin that requires more engineering time to reach fuel economy standards when you can sell a larger, often more expensive vehicle that has the same fuel economy as last year’s model?
Consequently they have become best selling vehicles because there are increasingly fewer small vehicles on dealer lots to purchase.
That explains why manufacturers focus on making these vehicles, but not why people aren’t buying cars. There are many cars available to buy, less so than before, but still plenty.
My guess is it’s that people are too susceptible to marketing. Some people see huge vehicles as a status symbol, and parents see them as safer.
A long time ago, I saw a documentary about how marketing changed. Vehicles (and everything else) used to be marketed in a matter-of-fact manner listing off capabilities, features, and specs. Now, marketing is mostly about emotions and convincing people to buy products to “express themselves.” That’s how they got the “anti-establishment” hippies to start spending money on colorful vehicles, new fashion items, etc.
I’m sure marketing has a significant impact, but let’s also look at Ford as an example. They are ending production of all passenger cars except the Mustang, and will now only produce trucks, SUVs and other larger vehicles. I’m sure other manufacturers will follow along, reinforcing the trend of buying larger vehicles by limiting choice.
I just traded my 7 year old corolla for a suv (mainly because of awd for winter driving) This much larger vehicle has better fuel economy than that little car.
We should make a distinction between full sized SUVs and small to medium that are more like tall cars
I upgraded from an older Civic to a Subaru Forester and improved my gas mileage! I also got all wheel drive, lots of modern technology and a vehicle more suited for poorly maintained roads. Most importantly, as a larger guy with bad knees, it’s a world of difference in head and leg room. As a guy with two teenagers, it’s an actual four-seater car. I never want to go back to cars where I need to contort myself to get in and out, and worry about how uncomfortably cramped the back seat is for my passengers …. Tesla, I’m talking to you too.
So, I also upgraded to a larger vehicle, but I’m hoping this article focuses more on excessively large vehicles
Wow, what great consumer choice! The capitolists are only making the goods consumers want and cutting out the fat. Theres literally no strings attached! What an amazing system we have. /s
I just want my wagons, specifically sport wagons back :(
Altezza Gita, my beloved 😍
My rav serves the function of a wagon.
Your rav four either serves the purpose of a small SUV or minivan depending on the year. The current one is an MPV based on a small van so it’s literally a minivan from Japan with regular doors. It does not have the cargo space of a wagon and it definitely doesn’t have the performance or handling of a sport wagon. The closest thing Toyota had in the US would be the really old Camry V6 or the matrix XRS. Maybe a Prius v if it could have had the Prius all-wheel drive prime power train.
I’m always continually shocked at how small so many SUVs feel on the inside. The centre console and area around the gear selector is such a waste of space. For what, cup holders? Bring back the gear selector on wheel
“No cargo space” and “it’s a van” are incongruent.
As for performance, it has “sport mode” but even in eco mode it can vastly exceed the performance necessary to drive within legal limits. I’m not going to race with it, I am taking my kids camping in South Dakota or shopping at Costco.
it has “sport mode” but even in eco mode it can vastly exceed the performance necessary to drive within legal limits
So my Kia crossover (needed ground clearance for rough unplowed rural roads at the time) has that, and I’ve found for most of the year it stays in Eco mode, I’ll pop it into Sport mode if I’m visiting a large city like Chicago or Milwaukee and moving through a busy highway interchange to better accelerate and decelerate as I work through crazy traffic to make my needed lane changes, then in the coldest winter days I’ll use Normal mode until it’s up to temperature because in Eco mode the engine never warms up if it’s below 0 out (I actually once watched the temperature dial go down as I went downhill into a valley once when it was around -10-15 out)
Not a sports though. If I wanted just a wagon there us plenty of those. And rav 4 prime has handling and weight of a wooly Buffalo.
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Stop buying bigger and bigger cars.
I drive a station wagon because I need to fit two dogs in the booth plus and entire family in the same car. But this is a transitory need. At some point I’ll either get a small van, for carrying the dogs, or a small hatchback and have the backseats always folded down.
You should buy according to your true needs not market pressure.
" everyone should do thing!
But not me, I have a particular circumstance that means I need to exempt myself from the logic!
I plan to stop in the future but for now am certain!
"
Everyone buying these cars has some reason that matters to them. They all believe they need it.
Myself included (similar reason, dogs, kids, family out of state that we need to help often), but I have no illusions that I took the dirty way.
The key words here are “matters” and “need”.
I bought the car I have today because driving my small 4 door hatchback was no longer a feaseable endeavour when wanting to move the entire family all at once. It was an objective need, not something it mattered.
You can reply I didn’t need to get a family or the dogs. You’re right. But that actually mattered to me, regardless if it was an objective need.
As I said, I’m in the same spot.
My point is that 99.9% of large car owners have what to them seems like an objective need. Humans are super good at justifying our actions, especially to ourselves
I don’t even consider a station wagon a big car anymore. And I bet the vast majority of station wagon owners actually need the space. No shot the average SUV owner needs the weight for anything other than to feel “safe” in their tank.
I think shifting baselines is a real issue with car bloat. It should be going the other way where a Focus is seen as a mid-size and the like of the Fiesta a compact rather then sub-compact.
There are like 2 station wagons on the US market. I’d love one, but I’m not into VWs and the Volvo PHEV wagon is only available as a $75,000 performance wagon and no one makes an EV wagon.
You don’t have access to Stellantis FIAT line? The Doblo and Scudo (short chassis model) are pretty affordable and decently compact.
Nope
I hate to break it to you, but small to medium SUVs replaced station wagons, just taller. According to my insurance company, my “SUV” is a station wagon
The Audi A6, Mercedes E class and VW Passat are available I believe. I have seen A6es and E classes in the USA.
The Passat is discontinued in the US and I don’t think they ever had a wagon version of it here. Not recently at least.
The newest Passats I’ve seen in Canada are mk5s I think (2005-2010 or something like that). Most common is the previous gens, which is not common at all.
It’s much, much easier to find and afford a small SUV/crossover than a station wagon body style in North America.
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Not really, they’re closer to hatchbacks. I also won’t trust Kia anymore. They got better for a while and then suddenly got much worse.
I hardly ever see a real station wagon in the US anymore. For whatever reason they just stopped selling them here.
As someone with one forward facing and two rear facing kids right now - this is so frustrating. I feel like there are so few vehicles that can hold them without busting at the seams and even our minivan makes it hard with getting kids hooked in if they are in the very back.
I can’t wait until they are all forward facing and I can open up what cars we can have.
I am the world’s last sedan enjoyer.
Or buy whatever the fuck you want, because why not make one part of your miserable life slightly more pleasurable by driving something that makes you smile. In the US, 99% of us need a vehicle to commute because we don’t have access to decent public transportation, so why not drive something you enjoy? Do I need a 500hp Mustang to get me to work and back? Hell no, but it sure does turn that commute into a few precious moments of happiness before I start the 9-5 grind.
You could also change your life in a way that sitting in traffic is not your day’s highlight, but you do you
That’s a very privileged take.
That’s a very privileged take.
Yeah because moving is so viable and affordable for everyone these days. It’s not like there’s a housing crisis with massive inflation.
Oh I forgot I’m in fuckcars, aka one of the most delusional places on the internet.
Those who want, find ways. Those who don’t want, find reasons. Why is it, that most poor people live in cities and not in suburbia, when it’s so impossible expensive to live in the city?
Does it actually add that much to your life?
There’s a big external cost, but if you spend your weekend taking it to car shows or working on it, then I get it - some people play MMO games just for the fishing minigame. If having a mustang is a big part of your reason for being, fine. Mine is to build things for the sake of learning how to build them… Does the world need an AI agent specifically made to be have a strong personality? Not really, most people aren’t even ready for that so I’m not planning on releasing it publicly. But I’m burning the time and resources to make her, because the act of creation brings me joy
If it’s for your quality of life… Say, your job is to drive around all day, and mustangs strangely have seats that keep you from having back pain… Fine, that job shouldn’t exist but we have the system we have, and I can’t blame someone for minimizing their suffering
But really ask yourself - is this actually something that makes your life better? Or does it just fit the idea you have of success created from a lifetime of exposure to marketing?
If that’s the case, I’m sure you felt joy in buying it, and you feel like it’s a sign of social status… But that attitude is poison. It’s like burning a forest because causing destruction helps soothe the anger you have at a world that sucks because of the lack of green spaces… Sure it might soothe your suffering a bit, but it’s ultimately hurting humanity in aggregate far more than it helps you. And what’s worse, is it feeds the system that caused the suffering you seek to soothe
If you could truly enjoy it. Stuck in traffic, a Mustang is little more than eye candy and ego soothing.
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My brother had a huge truck for a while. Strangely, this size actually affected his driving. All the sudden he felt justified cutting the half-mile long line to get onto the highway and cut in at the last second. “Might is right” he said. “They always let me in because they are scared of this truck.”
Ugh. I hope this isn’t typical but I feel like it is. I told him that was awful and he just shrugged.
A bunch of people started buying larger vehicles for “safety” reasons, believing that if they were in a larger vehicle, they’d fair better in an accident. I’ve heard people say their spouse isn’t a great driver, so they wanted to get them something bigger that they’d be safer in. Which only makes the rest of us more unsafe. My personal wish is that we would require a separate license for today’s bigger trucks and large SUVs similar to what we have for motorcycles, but require an annual test to keep the license. Make it just enough hassle to keep the license, so people without a real need start to question if it’s worth the effort.
I would heartily embrace tiered licensing for vehicle weight or general size.
Even then, a van is often better and more convenient, depending on the trade.
People think the shape of a truck somehow works better in the snow
If it’s rwd only like most used to be, it’s fucking horrible in the snow. So now they have to make most 4wd.
FWD car in the snow works perfectly well, as long as we’re not talking like a foot of fresh snow.
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In the poorer parts of CA they can’t afford luxury trucks.
Downtown SF doesn’t have loads of bigass vehicles but head 20 miles south and it’s the land of Male Insecurity Compensation Trucks.
How do you know what people need? Also, who are you tell people what they need? You don’t need to be in construction to get a truck. They are the best selling because they are the most versatile. You don’t need different vehicles for different situations.
How do you know what people need?
I know they don’t need a truck bed when it doesn’t have a scratch on it because they are not using it. I don’t know what they need, but a truck is clearly not fit for purpose in that case.
I judge people by how clean their truck bed is
I know plenty of people that have and use trucks that don’t have scratched beds, they take care of stuff.
I’ve never seen one person like that, and I do work in construction.
This is far from new. The best selling vehicle in the US has been the F150 for some 30+ years now and the top 5 spots have typically been pickups from GM and Ram/Dodge.
Most best selling cars
in the US 😒
Unfortunately SUVs are very popular here also, though they tend to be a bit smaller than in the US, and I even saw a few pickups, in a country where you definitely don’t need one…
Trucks have been bestselling models for literally decades.
It’s because there’s a 25% tariff on importing trucks. It was put in place nearly 60 years ago by Lyndon B Johnson; it’s called the “chicken tax” because the excuse for passing it was as a retaliatory tariff against France and Germany taxing American factory farmed chicken.
Because of the chicken tax, fairly few foreign car companies in the US sell pickups.
And because being a “best selling” model is good marketing, truck makers generally sell very few models of truck. For example, the best selling vehicle right now is the Ford “F series”. So that’s the F150, F250, and F350, in all of their assorted trims. There’s a couple other models they sell - the Maverick and the Ranger - but most of the trucks Ford sells are F series.
So a truck driver has been much more likely to drive a F-series for decades than a car driver was to be driving a Civic.
Don’t forget the insane fuel efficiency calculation that rewards larger, less efficient trucks over the smaller more efficient ones we used to have. It’s the reason even an f150 is gargantuan compared to ones of the past.
Mind if hijack your comment to clarify a doubt I have?
In the early 2000’s I had an acquantaice move to the US, somewhere in California.
After driving a typical american car for about six months, that person came to Europe, bought a hot hatchback, bolted on it every aftermarket part available for the car, had all the mods approved by the manufacturer and imported it, which awarded them a very high power/low consumption vehicle when compared with the standard american market, and I was told all the money spent was recouped in a few years.
Would this still be valid today?
I just don’t understand why the tariff applies to foreign cars that don’t compete directly with US cars in terms of form factor
Because it’s designed to protect Ford etc. from foreign competition.
The headlights can be angled downwards but fuck it, it’s not themselves they’re blinding
I’ve stopped driving my wee little Subaru at night because of these asshats with 900 lights on at roughly supernova levels of brightness.
(eyes burnt to crisps) What do mean? I drive a 2012 Renault Twingo and i’m not complaining.
Partially because people are selfish narcissistic cunts, and partially because being a selfish narcissistic cunt has become normalised.
People have always been, and will always be, selfish narcissistic cunts. That’s why the concept of regulation exists.
That’s where the market led us. We have to accept some responsibility but I can’t just build my own car when I don’t find one I like.
A huge chunk of it is because the USA has a huge tax incentive for car manufacturers to make bigger cars. When fuel efficiency standards started coming in, trucks were exempted because farmers needed their trucks for farm work, it’s a loophole that encourages the manufacturers to build bigger vehicles to avoid these taxes. These massive vehicles are unusually cheap in the USA. If these loopholes regarding fuel efficiency were closed out people would be financially incentivised to buy smaller cars. Unfortunately, money talks. People aren’t all selfish, they’re just doing what makes sense for them.
Everyone, including you, is such a cunt. It just depends what issues really matter to us.
Am I reading this wrong? By all means plenty of people who don’t need trucks buy trucks.
But the majority of this list is sedans and compact crossovers? These are barely more than hatchbacks with a different name. Obviously the top few spots are dominated by pickups that have ballooned in size. Legitimate criticisms are easily made.
But after reading the title I was pretty surprised at the list because I expected lots of large SUVs. But most large SUVs are missing from this list.
Disclaimer: I am not a car person. I do not know the difference between a hatchback and an SUV, except that SUVs are bigger.
This is entirely anecdotal so take this how you will.
Having lived in another nation for a few years, the cars you are calling “compact crossovers” are huge compared to the sort of cars sold in other nations. I don’t want to give too many details about where I used to live, but in that nation, roads that we would consider to be one-way, one lane roads were used as two-way roads. If you meet oncoming traffic, the rule is the smaller vehicle pulls aside for the larger one. This is in urban areas. There is no shoulder to pull onto, there is a building there. If everyone with a car owned a huge American-style car or SUV there, it just wouldn’t work. Many parking places just don’t accommodate for them.
Another anecdote: Despite every house on my street having a two-car garage, there are huge vehicles parked on either side of the road, making our road wide enough for one lane of traffic. These two-car garages were built in the 70s and are too small to fit two vehicles now. Either one car is in the garage and one is on the street, or both cars are now on the street and the garage is full of misc stuff. Why would a road with with two car garages for every house have such congestion problems?
IMO, More people are buying SUVs than they used to. And their “cars” are simply much larger than they used to be.
I appreciate your perspective. I’ve spent enough time in other countries now to vouch for your anecdote generally speaking. Though to be honest sizes are increasing in places outside the US as well. It’s noticeable on repeat trips over years. Still not as big on average, but it feels like the trend is upward. The gap is not what it used to be. Something like a Corolla Cross or CR-V is taller than what you see in Europe but the footprint really isn’t much larger.
Some of it I think is people being actively unreasonable, some of it is larger safety and crumple zones on newer cars, some is the simple fact that the market has shown people like bigger vehicles.
In the end though I guess my point was just that of all the vehicles on the market in the US, it looks to me like the top 25 list is dominated by those in the midrange and smaller categories relative to other vehicles on the market. Whether these are still too large objectively is a topic that can be fairly debated but the fact remains that people are buying things on the smaller end of what is available to them which runs a bit counter to the title of the post.
Only speaking to the garage thing, I think a lot of people like to think of their garages as a unfinished part of the house, rather than car storage. Same for the basement. So it’s sort of luck of the draw which one gets a TV, old refrigerator, and selection of tools and craft projects and which one is used for storage.
They bracketed it funny. I think they meant (large trucks) and SUVs.
Turns out the more efficient engines make a hatchback a little bigger, creating the “compact crossover SUV”.
I’m going to point one that hasn’t been mentioned. Infrastructure.
Highways, roads, streets have way too many lanes that are way too wide. This encourages drivers to drive faster. Faster driving makes overall the roads and vehicles to feel more dangerous, because they are. People’s response is to want and acquire larger, heavier an faster vehicles that make them feel safer in those hostile roads.
This is what contemporary urbanism is talking about when they say that infrastructure determines behavior. You can alter people’s behavior by changing the shape of infrastructure.
The problem in most of the western world is that the answer of authorities (heavily misled by car and oil industry) has been to make more lanes that are wider. In the false belief that this would make roads safer. When in reality the result is the opposite. Other measures like police enforced fines, speed limits, etc. Are also useless to mitigate the lack of safety and carry a huge set of problems with them like systematic discrimination and endemic corruption.
The answer is to make narrower lanes, with fewer lanes in densely populated area, less parking, traffic calmed and car traffic banned zones. Protect bicicles and pedestrians with concrete traffic segregation. Impose aditional fees and taxes for vehicles above a certain weight and parking space take up. Those things will signal people that it’s fine to drive a smaller, slower vehicle, it’s fine to use public transport instead. Along with more public transport options available.
I get what you’re saying, but have you ever driven in Italy? The lanes are terrifyingly narrow compared to the UK, but the drivers are far more reckless!
They just need a “guardian angel” ford f150. /s
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TIL some fella with two cows didn’t get attacked by Neanderthals.
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That’s reddit, let them melt.
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Can you name the truck with four wheel drive, smells like a steak and seats 45? Canyonero! (Yahhh) Canyonero.
