I’m really enjoying lemmy. I think we’ve got some growing pains in UI/UX and we’re missing some key features (like community migration and actual redundancy). But how are we going to collectively pay for this? I saw an (unverified) post that Reddit received 400M dollars from ads last year. Lemmy isn’t going to be free. Can someone with actual server experience chime in with some back of the napkin math on how expensive it would be if everyone migrated from Reddit?
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By not all ending up on the same server.
As everyone else has already said that’s a very good question, one that doesn’t necessarily have an answer, but Im not too concerned.
I’d point out (rather excitedly) that this really isn’t unlike how the Internet used to be up until the late 00s or very early 2010s and the rise of insta, FB, birdsite, digg and reddit. EVERYone had to shoulder hosting costs (unless you were on Geocities,Myspace then it was ads)
Yes, we’ve had bulletin boards and discussion forums since perl and CGI were a thing; each was self hosted at the hoster’s expense. Newsgroup and IRC servers too - THOSE all acted like “federated” instances - common newsgroups and chat channels would be synchronized and replicated from server to server EXACTLY how federated Lemmy/Kbin/etc. instances do it now.
And the infrastructure costs were a struggle then and they will be now. Back then to have a capable CGI forum host, or to colocate your server in someone’s data center it cost a lot - like decent hosting/co-loc plans started at $50/month and went up from there. Most hosting plans had steep bandwidth caps, think like 5GB included and +$5 per GB - if you hosted a popular site 40-50GB of traffic wasn’t abnormal. If you ran a newsgroup server you frequently had to futz with how long newsgroup msgs were retained to save disk space; like 48 hrs or less (then the data would be purged).
What you can get for $50/month THESE days is quite a lot more capable, and you can run a low retention instance for a lot less. Bandwidth and disk space are ludicrously cheap (at least compared to 10-15+ yrs ago). If your instance is low user, low community, and reasonable data retention/cloning, you could run Lemmy or a Mastodon or Calkey server on an old computer you have kicking around and host it from your home internet connection with a dynamic DNS mapping.
Obviously the big instances with gobs of users will struggle with how they pay for the server infrastructure - some will use crowdfunding, patrons, donations etc. Others will run ads, or subscriptions.
My home instance lemmy.ca is at 1400 users (as of right now) and is on a $25-30/month hosting plan and so far the site is doing just fine (or seems to be). I’d guess that a massive instance like lemmy.ml might be north of $1-200. But, if you think about it, all you need are 20 ppl to donate $10/month. I donate yearly to Wikipedia. As they discuss in this thread here https://lemmy.ca/post/599590 Mastodon gets $28k Euros a month in donations and pays for two? full time developers, so its not like there aren’t people donating to open source projects… and so far Fediverse servers are doing fine.
Do you happen to know what service that’s with? Trying to see what resources that takes. ($25-$30 can mean very different specs depending on where it is hosted). Ty.
That’s why I’m running my own server. Mastodon is much bigger than Lemmy and it does fine with community run servers.
Yeah technical users and people who are friends with technical users can just use a micro instance.
Yep, I’m using lemmy.world mostly as a trial period, but I plan on getting on my own instance to help reduce the load on the community any way I can. Will probably get a few friends on it as well.
You bring up a very good point. Currently lemmy.ml has thousands of users. Lemmy.world has thousands of users. The hardware they have selected to run their instances is adequate for now, but, what is the plan for scaling out if the user base grows? Is there one? They have a donation page on each lemmy instance (click or tap the heart icon,) but that can’t be enough to pay for the cost of running something used by millions of people, even if only 100s of thousands are ever only online at any given time.
In terms of UI/UX, @dessalines@lemmy.ml has mentioned in a post they are currently working on major performance improvements and enhancements.
It is an old programming trope that premature optimization is a waste of time. As Lemmy scales, several bottlenecks will be hit. Some might be predictable, but many will only become evident after crossing a specific threshold. There are a lot of guides for scaling Mastodon servers after hitting certain bottlenecks, but this is all uncharted territory for Lemmy and we’re going to find out the fun way.
Real devs do it in prod!
I’m seriously tempted to write some performance tests in jmeter, locust, or k6, and fire up some live traffic simulations / simulated load against my lemmy instance to see what happens. But at the same time that would feel too much like work and I don’t want to work over the weekend.
Sounds like a great github issue though that we can fund via bountysource or someone with more free time can take a look. Mind creating it?
Ideally, I think no one instance should have a million users to begin with.
Ideally, yes. If that can be the reality, and I suppose that is how it should would with federation, then server costs should never get out of hand.
For that to happen, I believe that interacting with people from other instances and moving your community and account from one instance to another have to become possible / easier.
At present, people flock to the instances with most users as those often have more local content (local content is generally easier to find than federated content) and they often have a smaller risk of shutting down. If I create a community on a smaller instance, the chance of it being found and interacted with are also much smaller than if it had been created on a bigger instance (because of, as I said, local content being user to find).
Sure, I can create an account on myfirstlemmyinstance.com (example URL, not an actual instance) with 10 users, but if my instance decides to shut down, my community of, say, 500 users will now have to move somewhere else and all old content will be deleted.
A “transfer my community” feature that allowed an entire community to be moved between instances would certainly help. That’s a great idea.
From what I’ve seen so far looking through the Postgres db, every instance has data from most other instances. I see users in my local Postgres db from other instances. So, theoretically moving a community from one instance to another could be as simple as changing a few values in the database. Of course in practice it’s never that simple. 😀
User caps might be a good way to decentralize and ensure that we don’t end up with just a few mega-instances. If there were a page showing available instances with percent of max users then people could use that when selecting.
A small cloud server + a domain name costs less than a Netflix subscription. The developers have taken care to package lemmy in ways that are relatively straight forward to deploy, so a dedicated person with a small amount of experience can have an instance up and running in an evening. As long as a few percentage of users are willing to pay a netflix subscription to keep a server running, the financial burden would be spread.
I think this underestimates how users will naturally gravitate towards more centralized instances, or they’ll give up because the bigger instances are closed. Someone’s gotta pay for it, and it’s going to cost more than a Netflix subscription. Servers aren’t cheap.
This also ignores that the system isn’t horizontally scalable at all, so scaling up gets even more expensive
I think this underestimates how users will naturally gravitate towards more centralized instances, or they’ll give up because the bigger instances are closed.
(This is purely my personal opinion, of course!) In the scenario in which a few large instances dominate, the idea of the fediverse failed. One may estimate the likelyhood of success or failure given how they expect humans to behave, but in the end experiment beats theory. I think that for the fediverse to work a significant cultural shift has to occur, but I don’t think that it is an impossible shift. I would like the fediverse to succeed, and so I choose to take part in the experiment.
This also ignores that the system isn’t horizontally scalable at all, so scaling up gets even more expensive
Yes, that might cause some serious issues. The project is still in an early-development phase, and I don’t understand the technical aspects well enough yet to be able to identify whether there is obviously a fundamentally invincible barrier when it comes to scalability. My optimistic hope is that the developers are able to optimize horizontal scalability fast enough to meet the demand for scale. If it turns out to be impossible to scale, then only rich enough parties would be able to have viable instances, and that could be a reason for failure.
It’s certainly a challenge. I run three instances on the #fediverse. Two small ones and a larger one with 450 users. I have a donation page; initially people were enthusiastic and I covered costs. Now, I have regular monthly donators but not enough to cover costs so I am subsidising it. I took the decision when I launched that it could happen and it’s my problem.
I think there will be many instances will fall away in the coming months due to costs. Especially if you are thousands of users and associated costs.
We need to come up with a new funding model, where people appreciate you get nothing for nothing. All the large corporates sell your data as advertising for revenue. The greater public do not appreciate they are selling their soul.
Is there an approximate specs per number of users guide to size a lemmy instance?
The cost will be spread out, and people can monetize how they see fit. I’m wondering if there will be additional benefits you can add to your instance for a charge that people might be willing to pay.
I’m considering offering an Element server and maybe email on mine with a shared username for each service. That’s going to take time to setup, though.
We must prove that it’s valued and let the monetization come later. I’m working on this in my spare time. Once I can grow, maybe I can put more effort into it. I think it’ll be a lot of people like me for a while financing it out of pocket.
Each instance funds itself. Some might try ads, but as of now, most are just funded by donations.
I think the biggest cost will be image/video storage. The text takes very little space in today’s standards. The good thing is that symmetric fibre internet connections are becoming more common so it may be possible for members of the instance to contribute unused disk space to help with its image/video storage. This plus limiting the image/video sizes (and maybe forbidding video uploads altogether) will allow the instances to scale with user count.
I think the idea is that many people can run lemmy servers so the load is split between everyone hosting them.
I’m running my own instance, so I’m doing my part!
- <insert Starship Troopers meme here> *
I thought about adding the gif but decided it would have been too much.
I just signed up for the Lemmy.ml patreon. I wish they had a $5 per month option, but I can just not skip ordering doordash one extra time and help pay for this instance. I use the hell out of it so it’s the least I can do.
Donating $20 a month over here, hope it helps
Unlike Reddit there will be many lemmy servers that exist, and I assume most will be supported by donations. A lot of servers have an Open Collective or Patreon option if you want to support them.
donations to my favorite instances, like wikipedia i hope :)
I’m running a barebones server for myself and a few communities (not many subs yet) which will run for less than a Starbucks coffee a month… (Assuming I don’t need more storage space… Lemmy seems pretty light. The main servers are gonna carry the load unfortunately… Beehaw.org had a transparency post about financials as of about a week ago they said something that their instance was costing like 50-75ish a month of I recall.
