It’s a free-to-play mobile gacha game. Therefore, it is trash. That point simply cannot be argued. It’s not up for debate. If you’re here to debate that point, please don’t even bother. All mobile games are trash. All free-to-play games are trash. All gacha games are trash. Again: there is no debate about that.
Having gotten that out of the way: why are so many people under the false impression that this SPECIFIC trash game is somehow more than trash?
Does it have particularly sexy anime girls? Particularly sexy anime prettyboys? Cool mechs or something? Does it very sadly contain core elements of gameplay that would be fun in a non-trash setting?
Help me out, here.
Why even waste your time making this post if you don’t actually want anyone to debate you? In your post, and in a couple comments, you say you can’t/won’t be dissuaded from your opinion; so literally why waste your energy making this post (or any of your other bullshit ones, for that matter)?
The actual question is, since they don’t want to properly debate/discuss anything, why are we wasting our time commenting here? 😀
Sometimes, you just have to poke the bear. ;-)
I actually got my answer. Apparently, there really are elements in the game that would have been valid, if they were in an actual game, instead of a money-sucking, immoral racketeering enterprise.
I wanted to know if that was the case, or if it was just about anime perverts getting off on anime tiddys.
Or is it just an excuse for you to call out and talk shit on anyone you don’t like for whatever reason?
whatever reason
Ain’t no “whatever” about it, my dude. Have I not explained my reasons enough for you to have a basic understanding of them?
And I literally was curious. I was wondering if this game had any nuggets of actual unique (wasted) potential, or if it’s just particularly successful at playing the psychological trickery of: ANIME TITS --> SLOT MACHINE ELEMENTS --> MORE ANIME TITS --> A TINY SLICE OF GAMELIKE ACTIVITY --> MORE TITS --> MORE GAMBLING --> MORE TITS, etc.
Even still you can’t help but degrade the thing you don’t like. And you still haven’t given me a valid reason as to why, other than “WEEBS BAD”
Hey, I didn’t mean to make it exclusively about anime titties. There are completely non-anime-related games that use exploitative gacha mechanics.
I’m referring to games that exploit gambling addicts. Do you understand that situation? The harm that is being caused by games openly exploiting people who can’t control themselves?
It’s exactly the same as serving alcohol to an alcoholic. If you do that shit, you’re an asshole.
And gacha games are even worse than actual casinos, for two reasons:
First, because they don’t involve the players winning money, the racketeers aren’t even putting any of their own cash at risk. Even with the house advantage, there’s always SOME chance that a real casino will lose money, every time someone pulls a slot machine lever. Gacha games, though, they don’t lose any money when you win a character, or a skin, or a weapon, or some fake gold pieces.
Secondly, because there’s no real money being won, gacha games evade existing laws against gambling. People are free to LOSE their money, all the way to zero, but they can’t win a cent, so it’s all nice and legal.
That shit is fucked up. Gacha games are built on savage exploitation. I’ll hasten to add that not all F2P games are based on the most awful version of this metric. Some games don’t encourage the gambling mentality nearly as much, and I should have given them credit, sooner. If you’re just able to buy skins or gold or whatever, it’s not as bad. As long as the game doesn’t come back in some other direction and get you by limiting your ability to play the game with artificial “stamina” mechanics, or whatever else, and pry exploitative amounts of money out of you, that way.
Are you just… angry it lacks anime tiddys or something? Maybe someone can point you toward a more suitable gacha game, then.
There’s nothing to discuss based on your viewpoint. It doesn’t matter what anyone says about the gameplay being actually OK because you’ve already formed your opinion it seems. Judging a book by its cover.
I’m not judging a book by its cover. I’m just calling a spade a spade. Predatory F2P mobile games are not okay. Ever.
I mean, look at where we are. We’re on Lemmy. We all fled Reddit, because we found their policies about advertising and, like, moderator politics to be unacceptable. But now you’re going to stan for fucking mobile gacha game companies?
Since we’re talking about it now, I do actually dare you to explain that position to me. How is that not, like, spectacularly hypocritical?
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Have you played the game? What about it is predatory? It never forced me to pay for anything and I was able to complete the story without spending a dime.
I’m not stanning anything. Just being part of the, discussion, if you can call it that.
It just sounds like you’re judging it solely based on the fact there are a few buzzwords in the game and you’re not forming an actual opinion of your own.
Please address my point about Reddit. How is it not hypocritical to leave Reddit and come here, to the fringes of the internet, based on moral principles…but then go ahead and support and defend mobile F2P gacha game villains?
The two have nothing to do with eachother…
They are absolutely comparable.
You left Reddit because of moral/ethical principles. In other words, you won’t run the Reddit app on your phone because of moral/ethical principles.
But you’ll run GACHA GAME APPS on your phone. Compared to the villainous motherfuckers who run the gacha game racket, /u/Spez is a literal saint.
Some of us are just here because they killed our app. Don’t assume everyone is here for the same ‘moral’ reasons you are.
The high percentage of psychopaths/sociopaths in this community is RAPIDLY educating me on that point. Rest assured.
I “fled Reddit” because they started making really stupid managerial decisions and screwing over the user base. They changed how they do things, and I no longer agreed to it. The same thing happened to me on Lemmy. I initially joined a server that decided that majority vote was the way to run things, and I left. Then I joined a server that died. I finally found my current one and like it.
Though in reality, I now frequent both sites and enjoy them for different reasons.
Gacha games, though… They tell you up front what to expect, and they do that. (Except certain illegal cases that actually got in legal trouble for it.) Yes, they’re predatory and manipulative, and they ruin the lives of some people who have certain tendencies. That really sucks.
But they’re fun and satisfy an urge that many people have that isn’t getting satisfied otherwise.
I think spending hundreds of dollars on a game is stupid (I’ve done it, over a couple years on 1 game) and I think spending thousands is insane, even if you have more money than you can ever use. But I can and do play them for free (or close to it) now if they are fun and don’t waste my time.
I don’t think these positions are hypocritical. I’m not on Lemmy because I’m a zealot. I’m on here because I enjoy it.
That’s actually a very fair set of arguments, if you’re absolutely and scrupulously telling the truth.
I kind of suspect that you would have described your position as much more of an “I’m doing the morally upstanding thing,” when you initially left reddit…but I can’t prove that.
I also can’t personally agree that “we’re up front and open about being predatory douchenozzles” is somehow a get-out-of-jail-free-card for gacha racketeers. But I’ll concede your position is not as directly hypocritical as I thought.
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Dude, I dislike games that prey on addictive behavior as much as.the next guy, but holy cow are you a toxic piece of work. You waffle on about how we all left Reddit for some ulterior motives and whatnot. Most people left Reddit because it has become the very headbutting contest you try to pull off here.
If you cannot understand why this game has appeal (and that’s a sentiment many of us would share I think), don’t fucking play it. But don’t walz around constructing some weird superiority story out of that. That’s just immature and petty.
Oh, and don’t assume that every Lemmy user has the same reason for being here than you or shares your values.
Huh, I’m starting to guess we’re dealing with a teenager here.
I have a side question if you don’t mind.
In multiple posts you mentioned how you expected people on fediverse to be “more principled” and how they can only support the smaller option or just give up and accept everything corps throw at them which is why you’re surprised some play gacha games.
Does that expectation also extend to “normal” F2P games like Apex, Fortnite etc? Does it include people playing full-price AAA games? Titles like GTA, Diablo, Halo, majority of MMOs and more - games that not only are paid but also include season passes and micro transactions.
Should people also avoid those?
Just so we’re clear, it’s a genuine question. I have no skin in the game as I don’t really play HSR, AAA games or really care what people expect from me but I’m curious about your perspective on things.
I avoid those games. But I don’t expect others to have the same tastes as me. I’m certainly not demanding people don’t like those kind of games like OP seems to be doing about Honkai
Which is totally fair - I feel like most (conjecture?) people who dislike such things will simply avoid these games and play other stuff.
OP focused on gacha games but didn’t mention paid ones despite the fact many of them implement similar monetization schemes which is why I’m curious about their point of view on this.
My main problem is with F2P mobile games that have any kind of gambling mechanics associated with them, or any games that are set up to get you to pay endlessly for the privilege of playing the game, even though it’s not marketed as a subscription service game.
World of Warships, World of Tanks, and War Thunder are the big non-mobile offenders, in this regard.
Games like Fortnite and Apex are just on the acceptable side of things, because they’re mainly selling cosmetics. They’re not claiming to be free, then blocking off large sections of the game behind grind-fests, which you can then get rid of with paywalls. As far as I know, you can play all the Apex and Fortnite you want, and the only temptation to spend money is based on “oooh, I want that cool-looking thing.”
Resisting the impulse to buy a cool-looking thing is everyone’s own responsibility. Therefore, selling cool-looking things isn’t unethical. Getting someone addicted to gambling and/or using Skinnerian conditioning to slowly acclimatize them to paying for a “free” game is NOT okay.
Alright, that cleared up some things, thanks. I assume FIFA’s (well, EA’s FC) Ultimate Team also falls under that umbrella since it’s straight up rolling for power?
Since you’re fine with cosmetics what about mobile/gacha games that are primarily that?
For example, I play a game called Girls Frontline - I didn’t pay anything yet have all bar 3 characters (the missing ones can be farmed on stages I haven’t played yet) with most of them leveled up and equipped for pretty much any available content. There’s no stamina that needs to be refilled and events have 3 difficulty levels to allow even new(ish) players to complete the story. The main monetary incentive here comes from skins (which can also be obtained using saved up resources). Would a game like this be alright according to your perspective?
While majority of gacha can absolutely be predatory there are more titles like that within the “genre” which is why I’m interested in your focus on mobile titles. Sorry if it sounds like I’m trying to look for a “gotcha” or something like that - that’s not my intention.
The Girls Frontline game seems to occupy basically the same space as Fortnite, from what you’re saying. Also, I really appreciate the fact that you’re questioning my position in a constructive way, unlike a lot of the people here, who basically jumped at me, automatically taking a de facto position of defending all gacha games, no matter how predatory.
Being asked these questions in a constructive manner isn’t just more polite, it IS actually constructive. It’s helping me to refine and understand my own position. I strive to be consistent and logic-driven, in my opinions, but nobody’s perfect. I can admit that some of my views may be somewhat emotion-based, and can be specified and sharpened based on discussion.
I think the most important thing to avoid, if you don’t want to be playing a game that’s unethical (and maybe even dangerous) is anything that combines a stamina refilling, gameplay limiting mechanic AND a pay-to-roll gacha mechanic. The worst of those being the kind where the common characters (or weapons, mechs, cars, etc) are super-duper weak, compared to the rare and overpowered characters.
Either one of those mechanics can be bad, especially if it’s tied to spending money. Combining them together is extra bad. It’s even worse if the game continually markets itself as “free.”
If a game has no stamina-based playtime-limiting mechanic AND the unlockable characters/skins are entirely (or almost entirely) cosmetic, I figure it’s basically fine.
I’m glad I could give you a chance to expand on your view in a more neutral manner. I like discussing things and learning other people’s points of view so I try to approach online discussion in a positive and open-minded way. It’s not always easy but I try.
I think the main reason people jumped on you so easily was the tone of your OP and some of the more heated comments - they come off like you aren’t really interested in an explanation but rather looking for affirmation in shit talking other people’s interest in those games. Feeling strongly about a topic can be a detriment at times and it’s an easy way to derail a decent topic for a conversation.
That said, seems like we’re pretty much on the same page even if I don’t feel as strongly towards the disliked parts of the industry as you do. I simply stick to titles that don’t punish me for not spending ever increasing amounts of money.
Its like Genshin. It has a very specific audience (weebs). It just happens to be a niche that is very active online. Most people who that doesn’t appeal too just don’t think about it rather than posting about something they dislike.
Its ok to let people like the things they enjoy
Its ok to let people like the things they enjoy
Not when those things are destructive and unethical.
You a big fan of slavery, too? It’s alright with you if people like kidnapping and forced labor? That’s fine?
No. Ethics exist. Gacha games are not acceptable, from a moral and ethical standpoint. If you like that shit, you’re not okay.
Did you wake up hangry or something? Your comments are… special.
You have very strong opinions for a game you clearly have never played. If you boldly claim a game is “trash”, but haven’t actually played a minute of it yourself, then your opinion is invalid, and should be ridiculed and dismissed.
That said, if you’re actually looking for a real answer and not just shouting “look at me and my superior, sophisticated taste in video games,” it may come as a shock to learn that the answer isn’t as profound as you may think: Different people like different things.
I don’t have to play any mobile F2P gacha games, in order to know that they’re trash. That whole category of “games” is morally and ethically unacceptable.
Individuals can like whatever they want, but that doesn’t change the moral and ethical implications. It is never okay to associate with gacha games, on any level.
I don’t have to play any mobile F2P gacha games, in order to know that they’re trash.
This is confusing knowledge with bias.
It sounds more like you’re prejudiced against such games so you assume they’re all trash.I’m prejudiced against gacha games in the same way that I’m prejudiced against slavery, murder, kidnapping, rape, etc. These are all things that are unethical and immoral. We SHOULD be prejudiced against things that are unethical and immoral. That’s how being a good person works.
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I don’t have to play any mobile F2P gacha games, in order to know that they’re trash.
You do, actually. That’s kinda the entire point of what I just said.
It is never okay to associate with gacha games, on any level.
Another strange confusion between “opinion” and “fact”. Maybe you don’t like gacha games; that’s fine, but other people love them, and some of them probably think whatever indie arthouse gamejam game or whatever you find superior is actually trash.
People can spend their time and money however they want to. The fact that it seems to bother you is something that perhaps you may want to reflect upon, maybe isolate whatever insecurity you have that’s causing this sort of disproportional reaction from you.
What other blatantly unethical shit are you into? Slavery? Dumping radioactive and chemical waste into nature preserves? Do you have to see all examples of that shit on a case-by-case basis, to see if you’re cool with it?
You’ve yet to articulate what’s unethical. You can’t just say “it’s bad because I say so” and expect anybody to be onboard. Use your words and show us that you actually understand the things you’re talking about. Because so far, it really seems more like you’re just trying to show off how enlightened you are for not liking a popular thing, and less like something you actually fully comprehend or actually care about in the first place.
You’ve yet to articulate what’s unethical
Getting. People. Addicted. To. Fucking. Gambling. And. Taking. Their. Fucking. Money.
That’s the goddamned unethical part, chief.
I mean, are you fucking serious? I had to spell that shit out for you, word for fucking word? I can’t even figure out the degree to which you’re fucking gaslighting me. Which is the point, I suppose. Congratulations.
So, you may have known this if you played the game or perhaps even spent two minutes researching the thing you’re pretending to be an expert on, but you don’t have to spend money on the game. Like, at all. And other people spending money on the game doesn’t impact you, as a player, because there is no multiplayer.
Anyway, thanks for the live demonstration of my point about informed opinions and such. This concludes the “ridicule” portion, now begins “dismiss”.
other people spending money on the game doesn’t impact you
So you’re just confirming that you’re a psychopath/sociopath.
I care about other people, EVEN IF THEIR SUFFERING DOESN’T DIRECTLY AFFECT ME.
I realize this is a completely foreign concept to you, so I’ll try to explain it in very simple terms, one final time:
I am not going to support a game with a gambling-based structure, because I care about other humans. I refuse to support unethical developers who are exploiting gambling addicts. That’s completely separate from whether I’m going to spend money on the game myself, or whether I’m theoretically able to get everything I want from the game, without the gambling ever affecting me.
Again, I realize that your neurology isn’t correctly configured to experience empathy. You can’t be fixed.
Funny story, my partner sent me a gacha game and I have yet to spend a dime. I play for maybe 20 minutes a week. If someone is unable to control their spending on make-believe prizes, then they have underlying issues they need to work out.
Your assertion that gacha = slavery is about the most ridiculous thing I’ve read all day, and I had to open Twitter.
Okay guys, who fed the gremlin after midnight?
Like Genshin Impact, Star Rail has a decent base game that does well with its characters and combat. Notice I didn’t say “great”.
However, after you get through the intro and the first world, they start adding on to the game. There’s a whole bunch of 1-off mini-games that are fun in their own right and have nothing to do with the Gacha.
The first one is a museum administration mini game where you’re responsible for “hiring” people that have 3 stats, and then balancing those stats to make money for the museum, then using the money to upgrade the museum, run mini-quests to restore the museum, and hire more staff. And expand the museum.
Each of these little mini-games is a few days of fun, and I think I’ve found 4 so far IIRC in Star Rail. Genshin Impact has had similar things, but tend to not be permanent, and to be less involved than Star Rail’s.
The gacha is generous enough that you can generally play without paying anything. I don’t think I’ve given any money to Star Rail, though I have paid the monthly $5 to Genshin Impact for a few months now. And I’ll admit, I started thinking about paying it to Star Rail, too. It’s definitely a gacha game, but on the actually-playable side if you’re playing free.
That said, if gacha games are something that just stick in your craw, it’s unlikely that any game will change that, and I’d argue that you’re better off never finding out.
In the end, I’d say you’re best just accepting that for what it is, it’s one of the best, and letting it go. There’s no point in being upset that people enjoy a game that you can’t. Let them have their fun, and go have your own instead.
if gacha games are something that just stick in your craw, it’s unlikely that any game will change that
Like I said to the other guy, I find it FASCINATING that we’re having this discussion on Lemmy.
The people in this community left Reddit for reasons of principle. We didn’t like the way they treated the moderators. We also didn’t like the way some moderators treated the users. We didn’t like the way Reddit’s corporate masters were placing advertising dollars above the user experience, and cutting off third-party tools and methods of using the site.
/r/Gaming has 39 MILLION users. This community, the one we’re posting in right now, has A MERE 27 THOUSAND USERS.
Here you are, willing to go out here to the fringes of the internet, cut off from the larger community, made an outcast by your own principles. Buuuuuuut you’ll also give money to fucking F2P GACHA GAME GHOULS.
Make. That. Make. Sense.
Really, don’t even bother. That cannot make sense. At the very least, please go back to Reddit. Stop torturing yourself with exile. If you’ll support the massive, ludicrous, unbounded evil that mobile pay-to-pay-more games represent, there is NOTHING Reddit has ever done that should really make you stay away.
I replied about this on your comment to another user already.
Look at the pot calling the kettle black
Can someone explain to me why Honkai: Star Rail is treated as something other than trash?
Nah.
Op: Why do people play this game?
Lemmy: Gives reasons
Op: I DONT LIKE THOSE REASONS, WHY ARE PEOPLE IDIOTS
Id guarentee he’s a troll just by even a glance at how hes responding.
The inherent appeal of gacha games is always cute anime girls/pretty anime boys. I doubt anyone will find any of these games appealing to them if they don’t like the art style in the first place.
I haven’t played Honkai or Genshin Impact, so my understanding and knowledge of both games is fairly limited (mostly hearsay from people who actually played them), so take the rest of the message with a healthy dose of salt.
I’ve heard the production value is excellent compared to most other mobile games: for the low price of $0 (gacha microtransactions excluded, of course) you get a full open world game with nice graphics and animations and a fully fledged story (I’m unsure how good that actually is and from what I’ve seen I’m inclined to think “not much”, but it probably appeals to anime fans).
I’ve also heard that you can play Genshin Impact for free and still get the characters you want if you’re patient enough, which is not something that can be said of most gacha games. The PvE nature of the game means that you don’t necessarily need the best lv999 S-rank character to compete with other players, and can enjoy (most of?) what the game has to offer for free, which means that you don’t need to engage with the gacha aspect of the game if you don’t want to. I don’t know if that applies to Honkai as well, but considering it’s a very similar game from the same software house, I’d say it’s possible.
In conclusion, I don’t think the game is worth checking out if you don’t like anime and/or mobile games, but if you like any of those and are a young person without a stable income, a f2p open world game with bells and whistles such as nice graphics and animations could be appealing. Although, as I said, my opinion is mostly derived from hearsay and a quick glance at YT to check what the deal was about, I won’t pretend I really know what I’m talking about here.
Playing gacha games for free, without spending money is still supporting them. Just like continuing to use Reddit is supporting their shitty policies, even if you don’t pay for Reddit Gold every month.
Sure is, and I never said otherwise. I doubt that people playing those games care. If they are playing those games they probably like them and are okay with the idea of supporting them.
I guess. I suppose I just expected some more principled passion from a smaller, more focused, more outside-the-mainstream community.
Username doesn’t check out
I haven’t played Honkai: Star Rail, but there are plenty of great mobile games and plenty of great free to play games. You sound like you just have an extremely narrow mind.
