Imagine thinking that Trump is in any way, shape, or form, better for you and your family than Biden.
Conservatives and Republicans: hate working class people, hate people that rent, hate minorities including women, want to privatize every last piece of American society so you’ll have to subscribe to your alarm clock and appliances.
It’s the illusion the maga crowd clings to. They think the economy was better under Trump and they think that relates to prosperity for them. The truth is that the economy really only indicates how the market is for the wealthy. But they don’t see that. Trump, like nearly all GOP, is fully prepared to strip mine this nation of all resources possible, which would me amazing for the economy. 🙄
I generally agree except I think Bidens secretary of treasury screwed the pooch by not borrowing more longer term debt at low interest rates. So now we’re paying 1T per year in interest.
That’s what we get with a two party system. The parties don’t really need to compete through better policy, simply spending more and being marginally less bad in the eyes of the voters on your side of the line is enough of a strategy for them.
If 3rd parties were viable, democrats would actually have to compete in the ways that matter, and we wouldn’t see shitty politicians like Biden as much.
But we’re not going to get that until election reform (STAR & Approval voting, ban on money in politics, etc) happens.
Gaetz talked of banning money in politics. This could have been an easy win for Dems by taking him up on writing that legislation. Interesting that they chose not to pursue the one issue everyone in the US agrees on.
Yeah and Trump said he’d get rid of corruption in the government.
I trust a Republican as far as I can throw them. Never forget that McConnell filibustered his own bill when Obama said he supported it. Gaetz is just setting up a football to grab away at the last minute.
I don’t see the harm in it, fair enough. Even if it’s politically unwise to take action against Democrats who vote for it, in my opinion, it’s still worthwhile to know where they stand. Down the road, when we aren’t fighting an existential christofascist threat, we know who to vote out. Or, we can see who suddenly feels very strongly for it, after having voted against it.
Like it or not we are stuck with a two party system. As fucking awful as Biden is, and he is, Biden is the lesser of two evils by far. And that applies to democrats/republicans as a whole.
Both parties/candidates are to some degree cool with genocide and privatization, but only one of the two stands out as the worst, and the worst by a lot.
Don’t like it? Vote for local candidates/congressional candidates in primaries that will fix the two party problem. But in the mean time the better presidential option will be anything with a D next to their name.
You want to ever vote again? Then take a long, hard look at what each party is trying to do about voting rights. If you want to stop genocide, a Republican in office is the worst-case scenario for you; and there is a non-zero chance that voting against Democrats in 2024 means that 2024 will be our last real election ever, after which the genocide would come across the ocean.
Think about the worst case scenarios here—in case of a blue wave, the worst case is another four years of lackluster governance and pretending to keep our hands clean of the worst stuff happening in the world, while winking at corporate greed and doing nothing about climate change. Not a great outcome.
In case of a red wave, we don’t have to guess about the worst case, because Trump is telling us what he’ll do: make anything but Christianity illegal, militarize the borders to turn away refugees, curtail the first amendment, hand Ukraine over to Russia, help Israel glass Palestine, make it harder (impossible if he can manage it) for people to vote against him, try to get an extra four years as penance for what he sees as a “stolen” election, retaliate against anyone trying to hold him accountable for his crimes, roll back environmental protections that will make climate change irreversible, nominate perhaps another SCOTUS justice who’s even more unhinged than the other three he installed, and vague threats of violence toward everyone who isn’t straight and cis. That is all stuff that he has promised to do at his rallies. And all of that isn’t even touching on the financial disaster that his tax policies actually unleashed between 2016-2020, and the regular horror of mass shootings and white supremacy that goes up under every pro-gun president, but Trump in particular. Not a survivable outcome.
This isn’t a normal election. Giving Trump (or, at this point, any Republican) a chance is off the table. He’s shown us and told us what he’ll do if he gets the White House again. If you want to vote third party to send a message, you have to contend with the possibility that there won’t be anyone left to hear it in 2028. Yes, people’s lives are on the line. So don’t let Republicans have the chance to step across that line.
These were the same arguments being made by
Dems back then. I voted. And we still have genocide supply.
The genocide we have now is unacceptable.
Just because there is potential for it to get worse don’t mean I should accept they situation we have now.
Biden cut check to Israel with a smile on his face. So will the republican party and so will future democrats.
None of them will be getting my vote.
That’s not what they said in 2012 (a year when Bush wasn’t even on the ballot, by the way). I’ve been alive for ten presidential cycles, and I’ve never seen it this bad before. I’ve never seen a candidate with such blatant disregard for democracy, or voters who are so blithe about tossing away their voting rights.
But even if they said it then, it doesn’t preclude it from being true now. Things can get worse over time. A threat narrowly defeated in one year doesn’t prevent that threat from gaining power and causing more problems a decade later, and the GOP has undoubtedly gotten worse over the last thirty years.
Ad hominem nonsense aside, your comment would’ve sounded somewhat reasonable in 1996, but in 2023 I don’t think it is. If you see the danger but run the other way, aren’t you treating the many more lives that would be lost as a result of a second Trump presidency with the same clinical disconnection that the Democrats are treating the Palestinian lives lost with each shipment of arms?
It’s literally the trolley problem. You want to not be the one pulling the lever. That’s fine. But the point of the trolley problem is that there’s not a morally correct answer. It’s a terrible situation, and there’s no right way to respond; but lambasting others on the internet for their choice is definitely the wrong way.
Thinking that abstaining to vote washes your hands of association is not correct. Your abstention counts as a vote for the winning party, whether you like it or not.
Choosing to continue to participate in the social fabric is supporting the choices made much the same as casting a vote. You’re paying taxes, you’re collecting incentives, you’re participating in the economy, you’re enabling the growth of GDP.
By your own logic, assuming you’re an American citizen and not just a troll, you’re also a genocide apologist who’s enabling whatever party wins.
They’re both supporting the ongoing genocide. This isn’t helpful for deciding who to vote for.
You are the one deciding between the two only, not me. I will vote for a candidate that has a platform I can support and nothing else.
It’s going to take all levels of government to unfuck us from a two party system.
The dems continue to get elected because of the Two party system. They aren’t going to change it.
Let me know when it does tho…
Only one of these choices is actively trying to turn our country into a theocratic hell hole.
Yes, and the other will happily participate in genocide, be unable to create real change in Any area I care about and then pretend they are the party of moral superiority.
You vote blue you will still have red on your hands.
The GOP also continues to get elected because of the two party system. There’s a much better shot at taking over the Democratic party to force reform through than will ever happen with the GOP. I want to vote third party, but I’m not going to pretend that it’s safe to do so yet at the level of president.
And you think 3rd parties solve all of our problems? It’d be even worse. They don’t have any serious political plan, if they did you’d see them investing heavily in local races and trying to get control of Congress before the presidency.
It’s just a grift to get your money and support. Oh they’ll criticize Democrats plenty for not being harsh on the rich or Republicans, and then they’ll go dine with right wing authoritarians and rich oligarchs who make our CEOs look like socialists.
The presidential race is the LAST place you should be making your stand. It’s like you want to skip all the early levels of the game (local and state elections) and jump straight to the final boss without realising you won’t win this game by doing that.
The reality is that with the current balance of power that will never happen.
It not that I don’t wish for it to happen, but even if two people here agree there’s no way we are going to take 70 million votes away from each party equally to guarantee neither can beat the third party.
We have one path: get more young people who aren’t batshit crazy into both the Senate and the House until we can force campaign finance reform, ban all of the should-be-illegal lobbying, force a voting system chance, and ban gerrymandering. Nothing else is going to beat the corporate government.
My problem what? Hint: It’s spelled ‘you’re’ in the context you’re using it. ‘Your’ is the possessive. ‘You’re’ is a contraction for you are.
And the actual point you’re making here? It’s not correct. Here’s why.
The GOP is the Authoritarian home. It’s the place for people who think that our problem as a nation is that other people are doing what they want in defiance of what the Authoritarians want. There is no vote splitting here. The jerks are lined up and HARD behind Trump, and the outcome of this election, without hyperbole, will be world-changing. Trump has already said that he will imprison a long list of people that includes people like you, and compared them to rats, roaches, and lice in a comparison frequently made by the kinds of people who have body counts in the millions after it’s all said and done. You’re not poaching any of those votes for your third party.
The only votes you’re poaching are Leftie Democratic Party votes. Who wins the election where 51 people vote for the Left Parties and 49 people vote for the Right Party? The Left, right? Wrong. It all depends on the breakdown of the votes. If 48 people vote for Blue and 3 vote for Green, while 49 vote for Red, it doesn’t matter than the 3 Green voters are closer aligned to Blue than Red. Red wins and all 51 people who voted against Red lose. Simple FPTP rules. Anyone that claims Green can remake the Left is either naive to the point of absurdity given everything that has happened over the past 23 years, or a plant from Team Red trying to get us to split our vote so they can steal the election.
You need to read up on Project 2025. If Team Red wins, that’s what’s in store for us. It’s bad. It’ll be bad for Gays. It’ll be bad for Minorities. It’ll be bad for the environment. It’ll be bad for Liberals. Exercising your protest vote will hurt a long list of people and priorities the Greens say they are behind.
It’ll be bad for Ukraine, and bad for the Russian people because Trump will crawl in bed with Putin and Kim and Xi to reshape the world away from the Western Liberal Order to an authoritarian order dominated by a Fascist USA, Russia, China, and North Korea. They have not hidden their desire to make the 21st Century a century of Authoritarianism. Team Red here in the USA is fully behind that, and their voters are looking forward to putting the boots on our faces. And there’s no argument you nor Team Green can make to sway them away from that goal. But they’ll sure back you in peeling votes away from Team blue, because they know 49 beats 48 every time and you’ll never get 50. You literally have no chance of overcoming Team Red, but you have all the chance to draw support from Team Blue to the point that both Blue AND Green lose, and Red tears down everything you ever (said you) cared about.
That’s why we are so dismissive of you. The only thing you’ll accomplish is ensure Red wins, then the game is over. Our only question is are you so stupid and uninformed that you’re doing this on accident, or are you one of them and are doing this on purpose.
Not sure if this is enlightened centrism or not but avoiding voting all together doesn’t solve anything either because one of the 2 will be elected regardless.
In the US there are only 2 possible winners, a democrat or a republican. Not voting or voting 3rd party is the same as throwing your vote in the trash because of the way the US system works.
So your choice if you want to change something is to vote for the one that has the highest chance of working towards your goals, and that is a democrat, even if almost everything they currently do is awful. Because if a republican wins, your concerns aren’t even going to get into ear reach of them.
Either participate and vote to try to change something or accept that you’re discarding your already limited political power by taking this moral stance, and in the process also making the problems you’re concerned about worse.
What if all the people chanting better than trump voted independent?
What if you guys did something other than the same thing we always do?
Either participate and vote to try to change something or accept that you’re discarding your already limited political power by taking this moral stance, and in the process also making the problems you’re concerned about worse.
Voting blue is not voting for change its voting for “not worse”. And even then it will still get worse under dems
You’re defending this system by continuing to buy into it.
I voted blue every time I voted, and we still have genocide supply. Its unacceptable, and thus I will not accept it.
Please understand that in a capitalistic hell like the US only the candidates with a lot of money and influence have a chance. No 3rd party has even a remote chance of reaching enough people to secure the votes you would need to tip the scales.
“what if all these people voted x” is a fun theory to have in your head but it will never materialize because the US system in its current form is designed to create voter apathy and politically disenfranchise people, making such goals impossible.
Like someone said above, make changes at a local level so you can start reforming the system, but by not participating you’re literally just making it worse for everyone. Stop letting perfection be the enemy of good.
Also, as if genocide is the only issue that matters here. Republicans are trying to violate every human right possible. If that isn’t enough to move you I don’t know what is.
And if I’m a genocide apologist by your logic then so are you for not voting while knowing that one of the 2 genocide apologists will be chosen. Have fun sleeping at night.
The same course is better than one that drives straight into a wall at 100mph.
Trump is just going to encourage the current genocide. He is going to further destroy environmental protections and stiffle our efforts to prevent climate change from worsening.
At least under Biden the EPA doesn’t let oil companies shit directly into our mouths.
Trump would dump multiple times the amount of money Biden is into Israel, and he’d pivot us to backing Russia in the extermination of Ukraine. Assuming he doesn’t start another genocide himself, he will absolutely make the situation worse.
Biden may have no shame, but Trump is constantly talking about doing even worse. Pretending risking him in office would be better is a dangerous delusion.
The problem with the trump administration is that people picked him thinking they were making the same exact decision you’re making, and look where it took us.
This will be my 7th Presidential, and I have voted in every eligible local/state election.
You offer harsh criticism but no actual solutions, like you’re still 20 years old and thinking the world will change if you just talk about it enough.
Republicans will always lie cheat and steal with zero concern for ethics or scrupulous moral considerations when it comes to undermining principles of democracy if it increases their wealth and power projections. Always.
Democrats will also do that, sometimes, but not always. Don’t vote for evil, but don’t let guaranteed evil ever get unfettered control of a flawed constitutional system built where evil cannot be stopped other than by extreme means involving violence and bloodshed. See slavery and what we had to go thru to ultimately eliminate it.
These two groups have a stranglehold on our politics and no amount of bullshitting is going to work around it. If people weren’t smart enough to pick Sanders over Clinton in 2016, if people were’nt cognizant enough of the idea behind not supporting Clinton in the primary simply based on not allowing a few ‘royal’ styled families to maintain a grasp on the reigns of power, if We the People aren’t rioting in the streets to maintain an open, independent, liberal democracy, why would you expect people be smart enough to engage a third party candidate?
You have to plan ahead instead of yelling about it the last goddamn minute (in terms of election timing, this is the last minute) if you ever plan to side step D vs R, you have to look ahead 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 years and laser focus on all elections on all positions including packing the court with ethical judges that aren’t beholden to ludicrous legal think tank fronts acting as formal legal society clubs. But nobody has time for that much less the will to create a set of policies that will garner support of a large enough swath of voters that it could affect the sweeping change you want so bad (and yes, that we all probably need).
At this point, unfortunately, you’re a chump for thinking things will change by playing into the same trap of voting third party against the two parties holding all the cards.
like you’re still 20 years old and thinking the world will change if you just talk about it enough.
Ahh yes there it is. I’m an angry youngster.
You have to plan ahead instead of yelling about it the last goddamn minute (in terms of election timing, this is the last minute) if you ever plan to side step D vs R, you have to look ahead 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 years
What if 10 12 years ago we all started voting independent? I think that would have a big impact.
In fact I think if we did that work years ago, we would have a healthy 3rd party candidate now.
But instead we keep doing the same things we always do… Vote blue or else!!!
Once again you offer only complaints without offering solutions, continuing to act like like an inexperienced 20 year old that thinks yelling equates the change.
Propose actionable solutions rather than just pontificating bullshit.
The greater of two evils won in 2016. If you saw no difference between the Trump and Biden presidency, you’re a privileged person with the luxury to worry about genocide in another country more than what will happen to you.
I am a privelged person, I don’t live in a country being genocided rn. And apparently so are you.
To me It doesn’t matter if its happening in another country. I personally feel You are a coward to down play this genocide simply because its not happening in your back yard.
You got more immediate problems? Ok. Trump is gonna do bad shit? Almost certainly.
But Biden is not the solution to the problems in america. Dems will not bring about real change.
They will only allow for a future republican candidate, with better PR, to take hold.
They are worthless. And your support of them only amounts to the same flawed choice, and the same outcomes already have.
Finally answer me this:What if everyone telling me too vote lesser of two evils, voted independent?
You are a coward to down play this genocide simply because its not happening in your back yard.
That’s not what I’m saying. All genocide is horrible and should not exist regardless of location. What I am saying is that the genocide will happen regardless of who you vote for, which makes it a foolish thing to base your vote on rather than things that will be different.
What if everyone telling me to vote lesser of two evils, voted independent?
Then the independent would still lose, by a very large margin, because 99%+ of the voting population has never communicated with you or even knows you exist.
As for “What if a majority of voters voted Independent?” Might as well ask “What if people stopped being hateful bigots?” It will never happen, and pretending it will rather than working with what’s within realistic possibility will accomplish even less.
It’s because of people like you letting them get away with being the lesser of the evils. If Dems were an overwhelming majority they couldn’t campaign on how close they are to losing everything.
I was a Republican and have voted the same number of times you have. Republicans fucking joke about people like you allowing them to win.
I’m letting the dems get away with becoming the lesser of Two evils by not supporting them…And you aren’t doing that by voting for them?
That sounds like BS to mee.
If Dems were an overwhelming majority
They had both houses and the president in 2020 and didn’t do shit.
We still have genocide supply… We still have campaign fiance corruption and a million prblemz they didn’t do shit.
Donald would send significantly more funds for that genocide and would help Russia with their genocide in the Ukraine. So doing some basic room temperature IQ thinking I’m going to pick the less genocidal option.
The USA is going to back a genocide regardless of your opinions. Learn how dirty your hands are and then make decisions that lessen the dirt in the future rather than digging straight into the shittiest option by trying to appear righteous.
A criticism of Biden isn’t praise for Trump, no matter how many times you people try to gaslight yourselves into believing otherwise. Yeah, Trump is a pedophile too, point being?
Imagine thinking that Trump is in any way, shape, or form, better for you and your family than Biden.
Conservatives and Republicans: hate working class people, hate people that rent, hate minorities including women, want to privatize every last piece of American society so you’ll have to subscribe to your alarm clock and appliances.
It’s the illusion the maga crowd clings to. They think the economy was better under Trump and they think that relates to prosperity for them. The truth is that the economy really only indicates how the market is for the wealthy. But they don’t see that. Trump, like nearly all GOP, is fully prepared to strip mine this nation of all resources possible, which would me amazing for the economy. 🙄
Trump prints trillions of dollars. Loses election, then blames biden for fixing his mistake.
It’s fucked…
Welcome to every election cycle since Regan. Repubs fuck the economy and blame the Dems for trying to fix it.
I generally agree except I think Bidens secretary of treasury screwed the pooch by not borrowing more longer term debt at low interest rates. So now we’re paying 1T per year in interest.
The whole system is completely fucked right now.
Well, Manchin wasn’t gonna let him do what they originally planned to do. We would be in a very much better position if that investment had happened.
I don’t understand how they can possibly put Biden forward again. He’s well past losing his marbles. Way too old to run imo. It’s disgraceful.
Isn’t Trump in the same boat? Trump’s 77, Biden’s 81. One may easily argue they’re both much too old to be running.
Neither of them represents an acceptable choice to lead a party. That’s kind of my point.
If these are the only two viable candidates then something is completely broken and needs to change.
That’s what we get with a two party system. The parties don’t really need to compete through better policy, simply spending more and being marginally less bad in the eyes of the voters on your side of the line is enough of a strategy for them.
If 3rd parties were viable, democrats would actually have to compete in the ways that matter, and we wouldn’t see shitty politicians like Biden as much.
But we’re not going to get that until election reform (STAR & Approval voting, ban on money in politics, etc) happens.
Gaetz talked of banning money in politics. This could have been an easy win for Dems by taking him up on writing that legislation. Interesting that they chose not to pursue the one issue everyone in the US agrees on.
Yeah and Trump said he’d get rid of corruption in the government.
I trust a Republican as far as I can throw them. Never forget that McConnell filibustered his own bill when Obama said he supported it. Gaetz is just setting up a football to grab away at the last minute.
It’s still an easy win policy. Nothing would expose corruption more than having people vote against corruption and seeing who voted the bill down
I don’t see the harm in it, fair enough. Even if it’s politically unwise to take action against Democrats who vote for it, in my opinion, it’s still worthwhile to know where they stand. Down the road, when we aren’t fighting an existential christofascist threat, we know who to vote out. Or, we can see who suddenly feels very strongly for it, after having voted against it.
It was shockingly amazing to see this, jaw-dropping actually.
I wonder if that’s the first time in Congress history that something like that ever happened.
A single congressman isn’t enough.
Age limits are something we should talk about in general, but using that as the reason to discount only one candidate is asinine
So I’m supposed to vote for the genocide supplier?
And Democrats are not doing this?
Like it or not we are stuck with a two party system. As fucking awful as Biden is, and he is, Biden is the lesser of two evils by far. And that applies to democrats/republicans as a whole.
Both parties/candidates are to some degree cool with genocide and privatization, but only one of the two stands out as the worst, and the worst by a lot.
Don’t like it? Vote for local candidates/congressional candidates in primaries that will fix the two party problem. But in the mean time the better presidential option will be anything with a D next to their name.
I will not vote for the party of genocide supply. Aka the dems.
Local candidates are not going fix the two party system. That’s a national issue.
I don’t know the solution, but buying into the Dems bullshit “lesser of Two evils” AGAIN is not it.
Have fun being the same chump you were 8 years ago.
You want to ever vote again? Then take a long, hard look at what each party is trying to do about voting rights. If you want to stop genocide, a Republican in office is the worst-case scenario for you; and there is a non-zero chance that voting against Democrats in 2024 means that 2024 will be our last real election ever, after which the genocide would come across the ocean.
Think about the worst case scenarios here—in case of a blue wave, the worst case is another four years of lackluster governance and pretending to keep our hands clean of the worst stuff happening in the world, while winking at corporate greed and doing nothing about climate change. Not a great outcome.
In case of a red wave, we don’t have to guess about the worst case, because Trump is telling us what he’ll do: make anything but Christianity illegal, militarize the borders to turn away refugees, curtail the first amendment, hand Ukraine over to Russia, help Israel glass Palestine, make it harder (impossible if he can manage it) for people to vote against him, try to get an extra four years as penance for what he sees as a “stolen” election, retaliate against anyone trying to hold him accountable for his crimes, roll back environmental protections that will make climate change irreversible, nominate perhaps another SCOTUS justice who’s even more unhinged than the other three he installed, and vague threats of violence toward everyone who isn’t straight and cis. That is all stuff that he has promised to do at his rallies. And all of that isn’t even touching on the financial disaster that his tax policies actually unleashed between 2016-2020, and the regular horror of mass shootings and white supremacy that goes up under every pro-gun president, but Trump in particular. Not a survivable outcome.
This isn’t a normal election. Giving Trump (or, at this point, any Republican) a chance is off the table. He’s shown us and told us what he’ll do if he gets the White House again. If you want to vote third party to send a message, you have to contend with the possibility that there won’t be anyone left to hear it in 2028. Yes, people’s lives are on the line. So don’t let Republicans have the chance to step across that line.
Replace evey year you listed with 2012.
And replace trump with George w Bush.
These were the same arguments being made by Dems back then. I voted. And we still have genocide supply. The genocide we have now is unacceptable. Just because there is potential for it to get worse don’t mean I should accept they situation we have now.
Biden cut check to Israel with a smile on his face. So will the republican party and so will future democrats. None of them will be getting my vote.
You’re a genocide apologist when you vote blue.
That’s not what they said in 2012 (a year when Bush wasn’t even on the ballot, by the way). I’ve been alive for ten presidential cycles, and I’ve never seen it this bad before. I’ve never seen a candidate with such blatant disregard for democracy, or voters who are so blithe about tossing away their voting rights.
But even if they said it then, it doesn’t preclude it from being true now. Things can get worse over time. A threat narrowly defeated in one year doesn’t prevent that threat from gaining power and causing more problems a decade later, and the GOP has undoubtedly gotten worse over the last thirty years.
Ad hominem nonsense aside, your comment would’ve sounded somewhat reasonable in 1996, but in 2023 I don’t think it is. If you see the danger but run the other way, aren’t you treating the many more lives that would be lost as a result of a second Trump presidency with the same clinical disconnection that the Democrats are treating the Palestinian lives lost with each shipment of arms?
It’s literally the trolley problem. You want to not be the one pulling the lever. That’s fine. But the point of the trolley problem is that there’s not a morally correct answer. It’s a terrible situation, and there’s no right way to respond; but lambasting others on the internet for their choice is definitely the wrong way.
You are right it was in 2000. That was a long time ago.
Anyways here’s an article talking about black voters are " choosing the lesser of two evils" when voting for Gore. Remember how that turned out?
If I remember correctly gore got more votes but Bush still won because his brother was the governor of Florida or something…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/10/29/some-black-voters-view-gore-as-the-lesser-of-two-evils/875026c6-d3d7-4076-ae3d-db858cb0270b/
You’ll notice that I’ve not said “lesser of two evils” a single time. My primary argument is an existential one.
Thinking that abstaining to vote washes your hands of association is not correct. Your abstention counts as a vote for the winning party, whether you like it or not.
Choosing to continue to participate in the social fabric is supporting the choices made much the same as casting a vote. You’re paying taxes, you’re collecting incentives, you’re participating in the economy, you’re enabling the growth of GDP.
By your own logic, assuming you’re an American citizen and not just a troll, you’re also a genocide apologist who’s enabling whatever party wins.
What a crock of shit. I can’t realistically opt out of “the social fabric” I can choose who I vote for. And it won’t be biden or trump.
Y’all should try it!
You are exactly right…I voted for biden in 2020.
They’re both supporting the ongoing genocide. This isn’t helpful for deciding who to vote for.
Which is why I specified local/congressional. It’s going to take all levels of government to unfuck us from a two party system.
Only one of these choices is actively trying to turn our country into a theocratic hell hole.
The “lesser of two evils” is fucking awful, but it’s true.
If you can’t talk about politics without resorting to personal insults then you must know how weak your argument is.
You are the one deciding between the two only, not me. I will vote for a candidate that has a platform I can support and nothing else.
The dems continue to get elected because of the Two party system. They aren’t going to change it.
Let me know when it does tho…
Yes, and the other will happily participate in genocide, be unable to create real change in Any area I care about and then pretend they are the party of moral superiority.
You vote blue you will still have red on your hands.
And in doing so you’ll waste your vote, allowing the worst possible option (Trump) to get voted in.
Establishment democrats won’t let it happen, but they can’t do shit if they don’t get elected, and actually good candidates get elected instead.
Which means all levels of government are involved. And this issue needs to be fought in the primaries as well.
There will be red on everyone’s hands no matter what. No matter who we choose, our tax dollars are going to genocide.
The least we can do, the bare fucking minimum is to reduce the amount of red.
You’ll have just as much red on your hands as I do. But the difference is that you’re willing to let it be more red.
So we should vote democrat? Lmao Are you hearing yourself?
And people tell me I’m pessimistic.
Our tax dollars are going to genocide because of the tacid support our politicians get from people like you.
You are the problem, you are the person who refuses to do anything different.
This situation didn’t start in 2016, it has been made by decades of people making the same choice you insist everyone make.
Vote blue or else!
So we should vote for the democrats that aren’t establishment democrats, the ones that will actually fix the situation.
No, it’s because of the two party system.
I am saying we need to do something different. Have you not been paying attention?
Oh get the fuck outta here, that’s not the only issue at stake
Certainly not too genocide apologist like yourself.
The GOP also continues to get elected because of the two party system. There’s a much better shot at taking over the Democratic party to force reform through than will ever happen with the GOP. I want to vote third party, but I’m not going to pretend that it’s safe to do so yet at the level of president.
You are the problem.
It is much more likely that a 3rd party will win, than the democratic party being reformed. Change my mind.
And you think 3rd parties solve all of our problems? It’d be even worse. They don’t have any serious political plan, if they did you’d see them investing heavily in local races and trying to get control of Congress before the presidency.
It’s just a grift to get your money and support. Oh they’ll criticize Democrats plenty for not being harsh on the rich or Republicans, and then they’ll go dine with right wing authoritarians and rich oligarchs who make our CEOs look like socialists.
The presidential race is the LAST place you should be making your stand. It’s like you want to skip all the early levels of the game (local and state elections) and jump straight to the final boss without realising you won’t win this game by doing that.
I refuse to play rigged games. And so should you.
So I was right. You don’t actually want to win the game, you just want to take your ball and go home because your fee fees are hurt.
Way to be a loser.
Have fun having an even more genocidal Trump presidency then, idiot. Third parties can’t win mathematically.
What if everybody took the same stance as me?
What if all the people telling me to vote lesser of two evils, voted independent?
Does the math line up then?
Maybe your the problem. Have you ever considered that?
If everyone did that we would have a solution.
The reality is that with the current balance of power that will never happen.
It not that I don’t wish for it to happen, but even if two people here agree there’s no way we are going to take 70 million votes away from each party equally to guarantee neither can beat the third party.
We have one path: get more young people who aren’t batshit crazy into both the Senate and the House until we can force campaign finance reform, ban all of the should-be-illegal lobbying, force a voting system chance, and ban gerrymandering. Nothing else is going to beat the corporate government.
Not all of us live in ImaginationLand, unfortunately.
My problem what? Hint: It’s spelled ‘you’re’ in the context you’re using it. ‘Your’ is the possessive. ‘You’re’ is a contraction for you are.
And the actual point you’re making here? It’s not correct. Here’s why.
The GOP is the Authoritarian home. It’s the place for people who think that our problem as a nation is that other people are doing what they want in defiance of what the Authoritarians want. There is no vote splitting here. The jerks are lined up and HARD behind Trump, and the outcome of this election, without hyperbole, will be world-changing. Trump has already said that he will imprison a long list of people that includes people like you, and compared them to rats, roaches, and lice in a comparison frequently made by the kinds of people who have body counts in the millions after it’s all said and done. You’re not poaching any of those votes for your third party.
The only votes you’re poaching are Leftie Democratic Party votes. Who wins the election where 51 people vote for the Left Parties and 49 people vote for the Right Party? The Left, right? Wrong. It all depends on the breakdown of the votes. If 48 people vote for Blue and 3 vote for Green, while 49 vote for Red, it doesn’t matter than the 3 Green voters are closer aligned to Blue than Red. Red wins and all 51 people who voted against Red lose. Simple FPTP rules. Anyone that claims Green can remake the Left is either naive to the point of absurdity given everything that has happened over the past 23 years, or a plant from Team Red trying to get us to split our vote so they can steal the election.
You need to read up on Project 2025. If Team Red wins, that’s what’s in store for us. It’s bad. It’ll be bad for Gays. It’ll be bad for Minorities. It’ll be bad for the environment. It’ll be bad for Liberals. Exercising your protest vote will hurt a long list of people and priorities the Greens say they are behind.
It’ll be bad for Ukraine, and bad for the Russian people because Trump will crawl in bed with Putin and Kim and Xi to reshape the world away from the Western Liberal Order to an authoritarian order dominated by a Fascist USA, Russia, China, and North Korea. They have not hidden their desire to make the 21st Century a century of Authoritarianism. Team Red here in the USA is fully behind that, and their voters are looking forward to putting the boots on our faces. And there’s no argument you nor Team Green can make to sway them away from that goal. But they’ll sure back you in peeling votes away from Team blue, because they know 49 beats 48 every time and you’ll never get 50. You literally have no chance of overcoming Team Red, but you have all the chance to draw support from Team Blue to the point that both Blue AND Green lose, and Red tears down everything you ever (said you) cared about.
That’s why we are so dismissive of you. The only thing you’ll accomplish is ensure Red wins, then the game is over. Our only question is are you so stupid and uninformed that you’re doing this on accident, or are you one of them and are doing this on purpose.
You’ve been attacking the Dems for this, but why do you believe the Republicans will do differently? Or were you talking about independent?
I don’t believe repubs will be better. I just consider them two parts of a single flawed system.
By voting for either of them you support both parties.
Not sure if this is enlightened centrism or not but avoiding voting all together doesn’t solve anything either because one of the 2 will be elected regardless.
In the US there are only 2 possible winners, a democrat or a republican. Not voting or voting 3rd party is the same as throwing your vote in the trash because of the way the US system works.
So your choice if you want to change something is to vote for the one that has the highest chance of working towards your goals, and that is a democrat, even if almost everything they currently do is awful. Because if a republican wins, your concerns aren’t even going to get into ear reach of them.
Either participate and vote to try to change something or accept that you’re discarding your already limited political power by taking this moral stance, and in the process also making the problems you’re concerned about worse.
What if all the people chanting better than trump voted independent?
What if you guys did something other than the same thing we always do?
Voting blue is not voting for change its voting for “not worse”. And even then it will still get worse under dems You’re defending this system by continuing to buy into it.
I voted blue every time I voted, and we still have genocide supply. Its unacceptable, and thus I will not accept it.
Have fun being a genocide apologist.
Team A wins: genocide Team B wins: genocide
Vote A, B, or neither?
Vote A: Team A or B wins. Still genocide.
Vote B: Team A or B wins. Still genocide.
Vote neither: Team A or B wins. Still genocide.
By not voting, or voting third party, the outcome is still genocide. You’re still a part of the system.
By telling us how bad it is to vote because of this, you’re ignoring every other issue. Some of them human rights.
Congrats, you’re making the USA a worse place.
Please understand that in a capitalistic hell like the US only the candidates with a lot of money and influence have a chance. No 3rd party has even a remote chance of reaching enough people to secure the votes you would need to tip the scales.
“what if all these people voted x” is a fun theory to have in your head but it will never materialize because the US system in its current form is designed to create voter apathy and politically disenfranchise people, making such goals impossible.
Like someone said above, make changes at a local level so you can start reforming the system, but by not participating you’re literally just making it worse for everyone. Stop letting perfection be the enemy of good.
Also, as if genocide is the only issue that matters here. Republicans are trying to violate every human right possible. If that isn’t enough to move you I don’t know what is.
And if I’m a genocide apologist by your logic then so are you for not voting while knowing that one of the 2 genocide apologists will be chosen. Have fun sleeping at night.
Voting for one of them is our only choice if we wish to influence the course of our country.
Voting for dems is the SAME course we are already on.
How can you not see this. This is what we have been doing for decades.
The same course is better than one that drives straight into a wall at 100mph.
Trump is just going to encourage the current genocide. He is going to further destroy environmental protections and stiffle our efforts to prevent climate change from worsening.
At least under Biden the EPA doesn’t let oil companies shit directly into our mouths.
Trump would dump multiple times the amount of money Biden is into Israel, and he’d pivot us to backing Russia in the extermination of Ukraine. Assuming he doesn’t start another genocide himself, he will absolutely make the situation worse.
Biden may have no shame, but Trump is constantly talking about doing even worse. Pretending risking him in office would be better is a dangerous delusion.
The problem with the trump administration is that people picked him thinking they were making the same exact decision you’re making, and look where it took us.
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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I have voted in every major election since I was 18.
That includes 4 Presidential, and many local ones.
They have been playing the same “lesser of two evils” card since George w. Bush. And probably before.
You’re a chump for thinking things will change by playing into the same trap.
This will be my 7th Presidential, and I have voted in every eligible local/state election.
You offer harsh criticism but no actual solutions, like you’re still 20 years old and thinking the world will change if you just talk about it enough.
Republicans will always lie cheat and steal with zero concern for ethics or scrupulous moral considerations when it comes to undermining principles of democracy if it increases their wealth and power projections. Always.
Democrats will also do that, sometimes, but not always. Don’t vote for evil, but don’t let guaranteed evil ever get unfettered control of a flawed constitutional system built where evil cannot be stopped other than by extreme means involving violence and bloodshed. See slavery and what we had to go thru to ultimately eliminate it.
These two groups have a stranglehold on our politics and no amount of bullshitting is going to work around it. If people weren’t smart enough to pick Sanders over Clinton in 2016, if people were’nt cognizant enough of the idea behind not supporting Clinton in the primary simply based on not allowing a few ‘royal’ styled families to maintain a grasp on the reigns of power, if We the People aren’t rioting in the streets to maintain an open, independent, liberal democracy, why would you expect people be smart enough to engage a third party candidate?
You have to plan ahead instead of yelling about it the last goddamn minute (in terms of election timing, this is the last minute) if you ever plan to side step D vs R, you have to look ahead 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 years and laser focus on all elections on all positions including packing the court with ethical judges that aren’t beholden to ludicrous legal think tank fronts acting as formal legal society clubs. But nobody has time for that much less the will to create a set of policies that will garner support of a large enough swath of voters that it could affect the sweeping change you want so bad (and yes, that we all probably need).
At this point, unfortunately, you’re a chump for thinking things will change by playing into the same trap of voting third party against the two parties holding all the cards.
Ahh yes there it is. I’m an angry youngster.
What if 10 12 years ago we all started voting independent? I think that would have a big impact.
In fact I think if we did that work years ago, we would have a healthy 3rd party candidate now.
But instead we keep doing the same things we always do… Vote blue or else!!!
Once again you offer only complaints without offering solutions, continuing to act like like an inexperienced 20 year old that thinks yelling equates the change.
Propose actionable solutions rather than just pontificating bullshit.
The greater of two evils won in 2016. If you saw no difference between the Trump and Biden presidency, you’re a privileged person with the luxury to worry about genocide in another country more than what will happen to you.
I am a privelged person, I don’t live in a country being genocided rn. And apparently so are you.
To me It doesn’t matter if its happening in another country. I personally feel You are a coward to down play this genocide simply because its not happening in your back yard.
You got more immediate problems? Ok. Trump is gonna do bad shit? Almost certainly.
But Biden is not the solution to the problems in america. Dems will not bring about real change. They will only allow for a future republican candidate, with better PR, to take hold.
They are worthless. And your support of them only amounts to the same flawed choice, and the same outcomes already have.
Finally answer me this:What if everyone telling me too vote lesser of two evils, voted independent?
That’s not what I’m saying. All genocide is horrible and should not exist regardless of location. What I am saying is that the genocide will happen regardless of who you vote for, which makes it a foolish thing to base your vote on rather than things that will be different.
Then the independent would still lose, by a very large margin, because 99%+ of the voting population has never communicated with you or even knows you exist.
As for “What if a majority of voters voted Independent?” Might as well ask “What if people stopped being hateful bigots?” It will never happen, and pretending it will rather than working with what’s within realistic possibility will accomplish even less.
It’s because of people like you letting them get away with being the lesser of the evils. If Dems were an overwhelming majority they couldn’t campaign on how close they are to losing everything.
I was a Republican and have voted the same number of times you have. Republicans fucking joke about people like you allowing them to win.
Let me get this straight:
I’m letting the dems get away with becoming the lesser of Two evils by not supporting them…And you aren’t doing that by voting for them? That sounds like BS to mee.
They had both houses and the president in 2020 and didn’t do shit.
We still have genocide supply… We still have campaign fiance corruption and a million prblemz they didn’t do shit.
And thank you for confirming you don’t know what you’re talking about. Those two aren’t mutually exclusive.
Donald would send significantly more funds for that genocide and would help Russia with their genocide in the Ukraine. So doing some basic room temperature IQ thinking I’m going to pick the less genocidal option.
The USA is going to back a genocide regardless of your opinions. Learn how dirty your hands are and then make decisions that lessen the dirt in the future rather than digging straight into the shittiest option by trying to appear righteous.
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And you think the Dems don’t? Don’t mistake pandering for genuine concern.
Ah yes, the obligatory “the other guy is worse” post. We know the other guy is worse. That doesn’t mean democrats shouldn’t pick better candidates.
Well besides being old he’s not really doing so bad tbh. Who else would you put up for election? Jon Stewart?
I like presidents who aren’t pedophiles.
So you won’t vote for Trump the pedophile. Got it.
A criticism of Biden isn’t praise for Trump, no matter how many times you people try to gaslight yourselves into believing otherwise. Yeah, Trump is a pedophile too, point being?