When this instance first started, I don’t think it was fully anticipated how large it would get. The place where this instance was when I first stepped up as admin was wholly unsustainable long term. There was little direction as to what the instance’s intentions as a website were, and the specific intentions it seemed to lean towards (being a sort of reddit 2.0) is not something we have the ability to handle. Neither monetarily nor legally.
The expectations that this instance specifically would be replacing reddit nsfw content entirely is not realistic, and the expectations that have been had for what all of lemmy is capable of has been much higher than what the backend side of things is at right now. Rome was not built in a day, and the same is true for communities of this nature. We are utilizing a platform based on a philosophy that hasn’t been widely used outside of email since the early Internet, while now having to work the laws and limitations that the current Internet now presents as well. It’s an experiment, and just like all other communities we have made mistakes and are trying our best while figuring this out together. This is not a business, we are not shareholders, we are simply passionate volunteers.
Right now, our team has been paying attention to concerns and feedback that have been raised. We are currently actively engaged in a discussion of what the next steps are from here. My hasty implementation of the current restrictive content policy was not something to do long term but an attempt to reign in a community with what felt to have little restrictions and many issues popping up. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes of managing a community like this. The current policy as it stands right now, has been a band aid while we discuss further how to move forward. And we have been.
And thankfully we have a much bigger back-end team than before. What has helped the most to provide insight is that we have a back-end team member who has active experience in hosting adult websites within the legal span of the law. We also have backend team members who are helping to build mod tools not just for lemmyNSFW but with active collaboration with others across instances as well.
As we have discussed rule changes and throwing things at the wall, our biggest aspect has been determining if we are on the same page as a team. Unfortunately, a now previous back-end team member decided that he was not. And that’s ok. However last night, instead of moving forward and deciding that our ethos as a team moving forward isn’t for them there was a post that was made that compiled our original rough draft for new content guidelines and attempted to pass them off as that is going to be our full go to as a community. It isn’t. We are discussing things and hashing things out as a team still but have made significant progress moving beyond what was discussed. When changes occur, we will make a post clarifying such changes. We ask for patience, please.
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Look, here’s the thing with the fediverse. If you feel that burgitt is in line with your desires as a community, go there. I have not deleted any discussion or posts encouraging others to go there. If you want to go there, I encourage you to! The deal here is that we want this instance to last long term, and their lack of moderation and restriction on content is going to land them in legal hot water eventually as an entire instance. I only add that they are currently existing in a legally murky area, and host lolicon and shotacon. If you want to be knee deep in that inevitable Interpol raid, be my guest.
We are working with limited tools, and limited options. We are building things from the ground up to address our concerns, and many of the rules are fully temporary as those concerns are being addressed. I’m not even really banning users posting the temporary restricted content either. I am deleting and having open communication (to the limits of what is possible currently) as to why. The only content that is getting users banned on sight thus far without much discussion is loli/shotacon. That’s it. That is not welcome here and will never be.
We are our doing our best here.
I think the mods of this instance and the admins should have a discord/matrix. If you’d like to have a chat for just admins, you could make a channel only viewable by admins in discord.
But I think there should be some open communication between us and the admins. If you’re unsure if we have the capability to moderate something, it should be a conversation with us to confirm or to ease that worry.
As an example: I’ve said in this thread other CNC can be moderated, and is very different from actual rape. And I think it’s not unreasonable to think mods could moderate that type of content.
But without consulting us, it was banned. There was no discussion of expectations, or what is and isn’t reasonable to permit. We can figure these things out as a community.
Also there’s the discussion of legal liability and then there’s being so precarious it significantly limits the ability of your users to post NSFW content. If something is illegal then sure he’s it shouldn’t be allowed, but, in my opinion, outside of that, you should work with your moderators to manage whatever type of content it is.
Their matrix is here (open to public): https://matrix.to/#/#lemmynsfw:matrix.org
It’s good that this exists, this should be in the sidebar!
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While this is technically true, I wouldn’t give this as advice to someone who isn’t experienced with covering their tracks on the internet (e.g. buying with bitcoin) or doesn’t know which provider is less likely to share their information with authorities.
There are quite a few cases of people getting arrested for carrying around physical copies of loli/shota (or on a USB stick) in certain countries (e.g. US tourist in Canada), that for me I would be paranoid about it, especially if I was traveling.
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I’ve been in the fan translation community for many years, and we paid a lot of attention when a bunch of Chinese scanalators were arrested while traveling in Japan for tourism.
Apparently, the JP government id’d them and arrested them out of the blue for stuff they did online.
It does happen – and consequently since I’ve done a bit of fan translation myself, it’s one thing on my mind if I ever decide I want to travel to Japan.
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The main unknown variable for me is just the question of how much the NSA is watching us, how much data they’ve collected, and how much they’ve chosen not to act on.
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gross, go be a pedo somewhere else
Agreed, if you want to be the nsfw server, the MAIN NSFW sever, you need to understand that kink content is going to happen and should be allowed. And you should trust your moderators to do their jobs and remove anything illegal.
Now, Loli and shoata content is a different story, thats something that I feel should probably not be allowed, especially in these early times when content moderation is not fully fleshed out yet.
That’s the theory but… What does that look like in practice?
I’ve got the knowledge and funds to set-up a lemmy instance where the rule is “anything legal goes”. The bar isn’t high from a technical/financial perspective tbh.
Except… /r/rape_hentai is illegal in Germany as far as I can tell, and I could see that being the case in many EU countries including mine (whether they’d care to prosecute is another story, but I ain’t taking that risk buddy).
But thinking on it further, “reluctant sex” is just such a common trope in hentai… potential liability is near infinite if some prosecutor 10 years from now decides to string me up for knowingly hosting such content at some point in the past.
Also what even is the legal framework for unintentionally federating illegal content? If one of my users subscribe to burggit’s loli content, I’ll be caching and distributing VERY illegal thumbnails. Someone’s going to go to court to create a legal precedent on the liability for federated content, and I’d rather it not be me because I can see that go either way (of course personally I don’t think lemmy instances should be held accountable for federated content from other instances, but some courts have been known to have… backwards opinions on internet stuff, to put it mildly).
I’ve said it before, I’d love it if lemmynsfw allowed everything that is currently allowed on reddit (i.e. following US law, which is extremely lax compared pretty much everywhere else). As someone living in the “anywhere else” part of the world, I don’t think I can take on the challenge of hosting that “morally dubious” content. Some of it is legal, some of it is illegal, and a lot of it probably is in the “IDK I should ask a lawyer, and probably there just isn’t enough case law to conclusively say that it is definitely for sure legal” area.
Of course the alternative is to just say “fuck it” and host it anyway, maybe find a foreign host in Russia or w/e, but I don’t think that shields the admin for legal liability, only makes them harder to track. But feel free to do so, like I said it’s only a few tens of euros a month and basic docker/hosting knowledge (at least for a midsized instance).
That’s understandable that you’d want to cover your ass, if that’s the case I get it. But at the same time this is something that will become more and more of an issue. This is the biggest nsfw instance, perhaps it would be a good idea if it were hosted in a place where the laws are more lax to cover the admin’s asses regardless.
It’s more than just hosting. I am no lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that the owner of the website is liable for its content regardless of where the site is hosted. I think lemmynsfw’s admin team is made up of US citizens for this reason, as the US is much less strict on online pornography laws than many Western countries.
Of course, you can try to host “anonymously” in a country that doesn’t care what it hosts. Torrent websites have been working this way for years. But every now and then a team of motivated lawyers/prosecutors manages to take one down and sometimes the owners do a stint in prison and/or exile themselves to somewhere without extradition treaties. The risk might arguably be lower with pornography (if you stay away from the very illegal stuff like loli), but it’s not zero.
I think hosting anonymously is not necessary if it were to be hosted in the US. They go after torrent sites because of the illegal nature of the content hosted there.
But that’s a good point about the domain owner, iirc yay is outside of the US. He could however transfer the domain.
It’s a shame there’s not a way to remain federated with a server and not have their content cache on yours. Or only caching encrypted data that’s encrypted in pieces rather than full unencrypted data.
Uh… source? These people here seem to agree with me.
To take an extreme example, if I was to host CP on Afghani servers with Taliban approval, my country’s courts would very much put me in a dark, dark jail for several decades at least. “It’s on foreign servers!” is not a “get out of jail free” card. One might argue that, in many cases, hosting abroad probably does obfuscate things to a point that the judicial system doesn’t bother about mildly illegal stuff that would require significant international cooperation to fully prosecute… at least for now.
Woah woah, no one is talking about CP here, I have said in above comments, I am also against hosting Loli and shoata, and very very much against CP, we are talking about hosting a US server with only things that are not illegal in the US.
One of the points of contention was what is illegal in European countries, with the example of the rape_hentai. They often have legislation that outlaws depictions of illegal sexual acts, even if animated.
I’m not saying that CP was on the table, I was just using an extreme example to illustrate my point. Because, legally, CP and rape hentai are both illegal to host and the point is that hosting illegal content abroad doesn’t shield me from liability if I do that while, myself, living in a country that forbids it.
CP on the internet is in a weird place because it’s the only illegal content that has some kind of coherent action taken against it… for now. But, legally, and I cannot stress that enough, rape hentai is illegal even if governments aren’t currently taking meaningful actions to prevent the production/facilitation/viewing of such content in countries where it is illegal.
The age of consent in Germany is 14. They are not exactly role models.
lets not torch the server quite yet, quite a few of the rules they have enacted to this point have been to not get ejected off of being federated and have now stated a couple of times that as stuff improves for mods and back end code some of the rules will come down.
give them a bit to think thru some ideas and propose some rules with reasonings. as thier track record has been to communicate with us about stuff and take our feedback, thus far. their energy towards this instance is worth at least that
I still think (and have always thought) that defederation should be the least of all the concerns.
The goodwill among the users and mods is not infinite, and every restrictive policy that fragments this community further brings this instance closer to collapsing inside on itself. LemmyNSFW has a bigger brand problem with its own users/mods (and prospective users/mods at reddit) than its brand problems in the broader SFW fediverse.
The other thing is that honestly, the additional rules actually add work for the moderators (they don’t decrease the amount of work). It doesn’t really make sense to say that rules will loosen once the tools improve (it’s more like the opposite). Rules about canonical age, debating about CNC, source verification, etc are a lot of manual work to ask of moderators that they were never required to do at reddit, and if they’re not on board, they will leave (or burn out).
To expand on your second point, making the rules as short an easy to apply as possible should be paramount.
Reddit basically says “no underage, no drawings that look underage, no fakes, no voyeuristic stuff, no obviously illegal stuff (real rape porn, revenge porn, etc.)”. It’s not because they’re condoning some of the extremely morally dubious shit on there (and I say that as a true degenerate coomer myself). It’s because it’s unmanageable at scale to do anything more than set some very basic rules that any moderator can easily follow, and then just monitor the mods to ensure they’re enforcing those rules.
For instance the Unstable Diffusion Discord has a great policy IMO: Any generated image that looks underage to a moderator will get purged, no ifs, not buts, if the vibe’s wrong they set in on fire. They don’t analyze breast sizes or inter-pupillary distances or whatever the fuck, just hip-fire.
It sounds crude, but it makes the job several orders of magnitude easier than the alternative, works really well in the vast majority of cases, and is a good enough show of faith to excuse the occasional mild “slip up”.
defederation could still be used as a gauge and tool to tell what the greater consensus of the instance of the federated community is, such as potential legal problems, or going there might have other issues. so an instance that is defederated will appear to the greater community as untrustworthy especially when mass-defederated.
on your second point, while u/paddedperson posted their allegations, i am unfamilliar with lemmy to tell if a post not showing in the modlog as deleted by an admin or mod means it was removed by the user. and i am willing to let the admins respond with an action (e.g. releasing new rules) or a release of the logs before condemning them to paddedpersons allogations, no need to witch hunt on this little concrete info
as for this last point, i did not mean rules as additional rules but more post these new rules that are in development before making a decision on this entire thing