Two years ago, sodium-ion battery pioneer Natron Energy was busy preparing its specially formulated sodium batteries for mass production. The company slipped a little past its 2023 kickoff plans, but it didn't fall too far behind as far as mass battery production goes. It officially commenced…
And commuter cars probably. I’d love something I can drive to work and back, and then later upcycle into home energy storage.
CATL showed a 160 Wh/kg sodium-ion battery in 2021 and has plans to increase that density over 200 Wh/kg to better meet the needs of electric vehicles.
Hopefully that happens in a reasonable timeframe. I don’t need high range, I just need cheap to repair or long life for a commuter. Maybe we’ll get something similar for buses and light rail first before getting it for regular cars.
Yes, absolutely. For a regular daily commute to a job that allows you to afford 2 vehicles, having one of the two with a shorter range with more charge cycles makes a lot of sense.
Yup. I’m married with kids, so we need two cars regardless. The commuter just needs to reliably go ~50 miles between charges even during the winter, while the family car needs to fit my wife and kids and go at least 400 miles between charges (we like road trips).
Unfortunately, I haven’t found the right fit since EVs are either too expensive, don’t have enough winter range (e.g. old Leafs), or have too many safety advisories (e.g. batteries catching fire don’t mesh with garage storage). Likewise for family cars. Most current EVs are in the awkward middle: too much range for a commute, and not enough for a road trip.
But if there was an economy car with ~150 miles range and inexpensive batteries, I’d probably buy it.
they can easily reignite, and traditional firefighting methods don’t work
they can happen with a simple puncture, or during charging
there’s pretty much no warning sign
Whereas with ICE vehicles:
generally caused by poor maintenance
overheating (major cause) has warning sensors and can generally be avoided
are fairly easy for fire departments to deal with
I was considering getting a Chevy Bolt, but the company’s response to charging issues (i.e. don’t charge in your garage) killed my enthusiasm for it. Pretty much everything else either costs too much or doesn’t have enough range. I’d really rather not spend much more than $20k on a car, but the used market has been bonkers.
I think we still need more time/data to get the whole picture. EVs are still in their early stages.
It would be interesting to look at fire rates for vehicles at rest. These types of fires have the potential to become quite serious, as they are often not immediately noticed, especially if the vehicle is parked in a garage or remote area. This additional time allows the fire to spread and intensify.
Since EV fires are typically more intense than ICE vehicles, we should expect EV fires to cause more damage to the surroundings and to spread faster. Though, this danger could be offset if EVs have a lower probability of self ignition.
We should also look at fires while refueling/charging. Lithium cells are most dangerous when charging and discharging. While an overfilled gas tank is easy to spot and may catch fire, a continually overcharged battery is invisible and will catch fire. Also, because of the long charge time of batteries, many EV owners leave the vehicle unattended while charging and would not immediately notice a fire if one were to occur. In addition, EVs are often charged at home, in close proximity to residences and other vehicles, and often within garages. These residential locations do not have the same fire safety requirements and suppression systems as gas stations, so a vehicle fire at home is already much more dangerous and has the potential to severely damage your home.
We have had a century to figure out ICE, but it’s still very early days for EVs, so only time will tell.
Of course this could all be addressed by designing robust systems that implement strong redundancy, safety checks, and sufficient regulation, but that increases complexity and costs money.
Yup, especially since my workplace has been talking about installing chargers. I don’t know when that’ll happen, but I’m willing to gamble if I won’t need them for a couple years (I might move to another company by then anyway).
The Volt was really good for this - 50 miles electric and 430 miles gas on a 7 gallon tank.
Unfortunately, PHEVs fell out of fashion in 2018 and are only just coming back into style. I think the Prius is the only comparable car on the market that manages this. The Kia Niro is also looking reasonably good with a 34 mile EV range.
But if there was an economy car with ~150 miles range and inexpensive batteries, I’d probably buy it.
Both are in the $30-$40k range new. You can find a 2017 Chevy Volt for $16k (and I seriously can’t recommend it enough).
I have a non-plugin Prius, and it works really well as a commuter. I got it for $10k like 10 years ago, and it has needed very little maintenance and still gets 45-ish MPG (highway speeds here are 70mph, and I usually go a few mph over).
Ideally, I’d go pure electric for the next one so I’d never need to go to the gas station again. A PHEV means I still need to use some gas since I highly doubt I’d get 50 miles range on our high speed highways, especially if the car is older.
But yeah, seeing the prices going down is good news. The EV discount for used EVs is doing a lot of work.
Probably would have if we didn’t pull out all the stops to subsidize it all to hell and back. 40 years ago was a great time for increasing fuel efficiency and smaller, lighter cars specifically because of gas shortages, and when that got a temporary reprieve we just acted like it could never happen again
I remember NiCad batteries still being used in power wheels toys as a kid. For all I know they may still be, but the battery advancements have been particularly amazing.
Sodium batteries are in development for over 30 years. We were pioneering this kind of research almost 40 years ago and that’s how much time, effort and financial investment this stuff takes. It will be 10 more years to get them everywhere. Technology is not as fast as you think.
Sodium batteries are in development for over 30 years.
Closer to a century. But the investment in the last decade has risen with the price of fossil fuel as well as the sharp fall in short-term available renewable electricity. International investment - particularly in states like China, India, and Germany - have spiked considerably during this time as well. That’s why we’re seeing so many productive discoveries outside the US.
It will be 10 more years to get them everywhere.
HiNA Battery Technology Company began producing EV-ready sodium batteries last year.
TÜV Rheinland approved Pylontech to begin mass producing bulk energy storage systems in March of 2023.
Rollout is occurring at the speed of domestic investment. And while US companies continue to drag their heels, countries with higher electricity demand and fewer fossil fuel subsidies are not waiting around.
I need long range and I need it at -30F. A round trip to the grocery store or to see a doctor is 100 miles and can be as much as 300 miles. I can’t justify an EV until I can get that kind of range at an affordable price. $40,000US+ ain’t really affordable for most people.
I almost bought a Chevy Bolt, but between not being able to actually find one to see and touch, and the almost good enough range, I just didn’t feel comfortable with such a large purchase.
I think your use case is pretty niche, but 100 miles in winter (even if ridiculously cold) isn’t that unreasonable. For me, that means a round trip to the airport, and that can absolutely happen in winter (e.g. family visiting for Christmas or something).
And yeah, I’m not paying $40k for a car, especially at these loan rates. I spend a bit more than $1k on gas, so if an ICE is $25k and electricity is completely free (it’s not), it would take 10 years to be more economical. It’s even worse that EV batteries and most parts of the electrical system just aren’t repairable by your average mechanic, and battery replacements costs like $10-20k, which is about what I’m looking to pay for an entire car anyway.
I’m definitely interested, and I’ll buy if the price is right. Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf are about right, but they’ve had battery issues in the past, but I’m seriously considering them, just looking for the right deal.
I’m in northern Minnesota. There is a fairly large low population area across the north central and northwestern part of that state. Not many people live here. And yes, the use case is pretty niche compared to anyone living in a more urban area. But while there aren’t many of us up here, we do exist.
Financial constraints are the biggest issue with the adoption of EVs for most people. It is still cheaper for many to own an ICE than invest in an EV. The pay back is painfully slow. Still, if it hadn’t been for the battery problems of the Bolt, I probably would have bought one. It would have been just doable for my needs as a second vehicle.
I have looked into hybrids also. The problem there is since I live in a very rural area, the long distances I travel means I drive at highway speeds for almost all of the trip. The ICE motor would run the whole trip anyway. Paying for a battery that is seldom used and dragging the extra weight around makes no sense.And it would be difficult to something repaired if it needed it.
Howdy Neighbor, you could always move a little further north. We’ve got lots of people driving EVs up here in Winnipeg! I’m kidding, but there is at least some charging infrastructure coming rurally here in Manitoba, and you are starting to see a lot of commuters using them for 100+ km (one-way) commutes. That being said, we have similar issues if you need to drive long distances between rural centers, but the government subsidies to help install L2 chargers seem to be making a difference as more and more municipalities are installing at least one charger somewhere. I can understand how people are still hesitant about winter, with -20C (-5f) to -30C(-30f) being not uncommon (for now…).
Hi! Neighbor! I am a lot closer to Winnipeg than the Twin Cities.
There are government programs to install chargers here also. The problem is, there is no money to fix those chargers when they stop working. My Daughter, who is a research engineer in the fields of public charging for EVs and HVAC systems, will tell you that she can get all kinds of money to install them, but there is no money to actually keep them working. And it’s expensive to repair them. So it’s nearly useless at this point in time to install them only to have them break and not get repaired. She is currently doing a 10 year study of a string of 60 chargers across the northern part of the state from Red Lake to Brainard to the Twin Cities.
Awesome! Isn’t that always the way. People, agencies and governments love to put their name on new and shiny projects, but never want to fund labor or upkeep. I work for a non-profit and a big part of my job is begging for money to help us maintain the amazing infrastructure we have, but get very little support to upkeep.
I’ve spent a lot of time visiting Roseau and Warroad in my life, so it’s always nice to meet an American neighbor in the wilds of the internet. Manitoba is actually a cool place to visit, and your dollar goes a lot further. Come up to Winnipeg for a weekend and you’d be surprised how much more there is to do now than even a decade a go. It’s food and music scene is awesome.
I haven’t been to Winnipeg in a long time, since before COVID. But I do get to Fort Francis when I go to the 'Falls. I miss the days when we could just pass the border without the hassle it’s become today. I used to have family up in Roseau years ago. Might still be some shirttail outlaws up there.
My Daughter works for a non-profit too. She does research on not only public charging for vehicles, but also HVAC systems for homes across the US. I have also had to swim in the ocean of paperwork of state and federal grants. Few survive the experience for long. May God 'ha mercy on your soul!
For hybrids, I drive a Prius and mostly on the highway (70mph speed limit here) and I generally get 40-45mpg. I haven’t had anything to wrong with the hybrid side, and it’s not a plug-in hybrid. Prices are kinda high for them right now, but I got mine for $10k used about 10 years/90k miles ago (had 60k miles when I got it).
That said, I’m in Utah where winter temps rarely go below 10F, so I have no insight into really could winters.
But yeah, EVs really need to come down in price to make sense for me.
Where do you live that it’s often -30? And if you need to drive 300mi to a doctor’s for a medical emergency at that one time if year, do you have someone else you could ask or only drive there and worrying about charging later?
Northern Minnesota often sees those temperatures. And if it’s a real medical emergency, you could well be dead by the time anyone can get to you - IF you have cell service to make a call. If they do make it to you, you will probably be airlifted by helicopter. Making a a 100+ mile trip, would be just for a clinic visit or even to pick up a prescription, which I did last Saturday for my Wife.
100+ miles is fine for most any EV. My bolt during the winter was still able to get 200mi+ at 70mph in sub zero F weather. With a home charger it’s fine. It’s road trips that would push further. I’ve found charging adds maybe 25% time to long trips. But that doesn’t seem to be the use case you’re referring to.
And commuter cars probably. I’d love something I can drive to work and back, and then later upcycle into home energy storage.
Hopefully that happens in a reasonable timeframe. I don’t need high range, I just need cheap to repair or long life for a commuter. Maybe we’ll get something similar for buses and light rail first before getting it for regular cars.
Yes, absolutely. For a regular daily commute to a job that allows you to afford 2 vehicles, having one of the two with a shorter range with more charge cycles makes a lot of sense.
Yup. I’m married with kids, so we need two cars regardless. The commuter just needs to reliably go ~50 miles between charges even during the winter, while the family car needs to fit my wife and kids and go at least 400 miles between charges (we like road trips).
Unfortunately, I haven’t found the right fit since EVs are either too expensive, don’t have enough winter range (e.g. old Leafs), or have too many safety advisories (e.g. batteries catching fire don’t mesh with garage storage). Likewise for family cars. Most current EVs are in the awkward middle: too much range for a commute, and not enough for a road trip.
But if there was an economy car with ~150 miles range and inexpensive batteries, I’d probably buy it.
Your gas powered car is more likely to burst into flames than your electric car.
The problems with EV fires are:
Whereas with ICE vehicles:
I was considering getting a Chevy Bolt, but the company’s response to charging issues (i.e. don’t charge in your garage) killed my enthusiasm for it. Pretty much everything else either costs too much or doesn’t have enough range. I’d really rather not spend much more than $20k on a car, but the used market has been bonkers.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
I think we still need more time/data to get the whole picture. EVs are still in their early stages.
It would be interesting to look at fire rates for vehicles at rest. These types of fires have the potential to become quite serious, as they are often not immediately noticed, especially if the vehicle is parked in a garage or remote area. This additional time allows the fire to spread and intensify.
Since EV fires are typically more intense than ICE vehicles, we should expect EV fires to cause more damage to the surroundings and to spread faster. Though, this danger could be offset if EVs have a lower probability of self ignition.
We should also look at fires while refueling/charging. Lithium cells are most dangerous when charging and discharging. While an overfilled gas tank is easy to spot and may catch fire, a continually overcharged battery is invisible and will catch fire. Also, because of the long charge time of batteries, many EV owners leave the vehicle unattended while charging and would not immediately notice a fire if one were to occur. In addition, EVs are often charged at home, in close proximity to residences and other vehicles, and often within garages. These residential locations do not have the same fire safety requirements and suppression systems as gas stations, so a vehicle fire at home is already much more dangerous and has the potential to severely damage your home.
We have had a century to figure out ICE, but it’s still very early days for EVs, so only time will tell.
Of course this could all be addressed by designing robust systems that implement strong redundancy, safety checks, and sufficient regulation, but that increases complexity and costs money.
Yeah, a car that started out with 150 miles of range, has degraded to about 80 miles of range, and is known to be safe would be ideal.
Yup, especially since my workplace has been talking about installing chargers. I don’t know when that’ll happen, but I’m willing to gamble if I won’t need them for a couple years (I might move to another company by then anyway).
The Volt was really good for this - 50 miles electric and 430 miles gas on a 7 gallon tank.
Unfortunately, PHEVs fell out of fashion in 2018 and are only just coming back into style. I think the Prius is the only comparable car on the market that manages this. The Kia Niro is also looking reasonably good with a 34 mile EV range.
Both are in the $30-$40k range new. You can find a 2017 Chevy Volt for $16k (and I seriously can’t recommend it enough).
I have a non-plugin Prius, and it works really well as a commuter. I got it for $10k like 10 years ago, and it has needed very little maintenance and still gets 45-ish MPG (highway speeds here are 70mph, and I usually go a few mph over).
Ideally, I’d go pure electric for the next one so I’d never need to go to the gas station again. A PHEV means I still need to use some gas since I highly doubt I’d get 50 miles range on our high speed highways, especially if the car is older.
But yeah, seeing the prices going down is good news. The EV discount for used EVs is doing a lot of work.
Ev discount for used ev’s?
US tax credit.
On buying used ones? Really? What if it’s a private party sale?
Only from dealers, which sucks because dealers can just hike the price a bit to account for the credit.
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Amazing how far we’re progressing in battery technology in such a short amount of time.
And all it took was $100/BBL gas to get people off their asses. A shame we weren’t pioneering this kind of research 40 years ago.
Probably would have if we didn’t pull out all the stops to subsidize it all to hell and back. 40 years ago was a great time for increasing fuel efficiency and smaller, lighter cars specifically because of gas shortages, and when that got a temporary reprieve we just acted like it could never happen again
I remember NiCad batteries still being used in power wheels toys as a kid. For all I know they may still be, but the battery advancements have been particularly amazing.
Short time? We’ve been kind of stuck for decades on the same tech and working to try and find something else.
Sodium batteries are in development for over 30 years. We were pioneering this kind of research almost 40 years ago and that’s how much time, effort and financial investment this stuff takes. It will be 10 more years to get them everywhere. Technology is not as fast as you think.
Closer to a century. But the investment in the last decade has risen with the price of fossil fuel as well as the sharp fall in short-term available renewable electricity. International investment - particularly in states like China, India, and Germany - have spiked considerably during this time as well. That’s why we’re seeing so many productive discoveries outside the US.
HiNA Battery Technology Company began producing EV-ready sodium batteries last year.
TÜV Rheinland approved Pylontech to begin mass producing bulk energy storage systems in March of 2023.
Rollout is occurring at the speed of domestic investment. And while US companies continue to drag their heels, countries with higher electricity demand and fewer fossil fuel subsidies are not waiting around.
I need long range and I need it at -30F. A round trip to the grocery store or to see a doctor is 100 miles and can be as much as 300 miles. I can’t justify an EV until I can get that kind of range at an affordable price. $40,000US+ ain’t really affordable for most people.
I almost bought a Chevy Bolt, but between not being able to actually find one to see and touch, and the almost good enough range, I just didn’t feel comfortable with such a large purchase.
Are you in Alaska or middle of nowhere main?
I think your use case is pretty niche, but 100 miles in winter (even if ridiculously cold) isn’t that unreasonable. For me, that means a round trip to the airport, and that can absolutely happen in winter (e.g. family visiting for Christmas or something).
And yeah, I’m not paying $40k for a car, especially at these loan rates. I spend a bit more than $1k on gas, so if an ICE is $25k and electricity is completely free (it’s not), it would take 10 years to be more economical. It’s even worse that EV batteries and most parts of the electrical system just aren’t repairable by your average mechanic, and battery replacements costs like $10-20k, which is about what I’m looking to pay for an entire car anyway.
I’m definitely interested, and I’ll buy if the price is right. Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf are about right, but they’ve had battery issues in the past, but I’m seriously considering them, just looking for the right deal.
I’m in northern Minnesota. There is a fairly large low population area across the north central and northwestern part of that state. Not many people live here. And yes, the use case is pretty niche compared to anyone living in a more urban area. But while there aren’t many of us up here, we do exist.
Financial constraints are the biggest issue with the adoption of EVs for most people. It is still cheaper for many to own an ICE than invest in an EV. The pay back is painfully slow. Still, if it hadn’t been for the battery problems of the Bolt, I probably would have bought one. It would have been just doable for my needs as a second vehicle.
I have looked into hybrids also. The problem there is since I live in a very rural area, the long distances I travel means I drive at highway speeds for almost all of the trip. The ICE motor would run the whole trip anyway. Paying for a battery that is seldom used and dragging the extra weight around makes no sense.And it would be difficult to something repaired if it needed it.
Howdy Neighbor, you could always move a little further north. We’ve got lots of people driving EVs up here in Winnipeg! I’m kidding, but there is at least some charging infrastructure coming rurally here in Manitoba, and you are starting to see a lot of commuters using them for 100+ km (one-way) commutes. That being said, we have similar issues if you need to drive long distances between rural centers, but the government subsidies to help install L2 chargers seem to be making a difference as more and more municipalities are installing at least one charger somewhere. I can understand how people are still hesitant about winter, with -20C (-5f) to -30C(-30f) being not uncommon (for now…).
Hi! Neighbor! I am a lot closer to Winnipeg than the Twin Cities.
There are government programs to install chargers here also. The problem is, there is no money to fix those chargers when they stop working. My Daughter, who is a research engineer in the fields of public charging for EVs and HVAC systems, will tell you that she can get all kinds of money to install them, but there is no money to actually keep them working. And it’s expensive to repair them. So it’s nearly useless at this point in time to install them only to have them break and not get repaired. She is currently doing a 10 year study of a string of 60 chargers across the northern part of the state from Red Lake to Brainard to the Twin Cities.
Awesome! Isn’t that always the way. People, agencies and governments love to put their name on new and shiny projects, but never want to fund labor or upkeep. I work for a non-profit and a big part of my job is begging for money to help us maintain the amazing infrastructure we have, but get very little support to upkeep.
I’ve spent a lot of time visiting Roseau and Warroad in my life, so it’s always nice to meet an American neighbor in the wilds of the internet. Manitoba is actually a cool place to visit, and your dollar goes a lot further. Come up to Winnipeg for a weekend and you’d be surprised how much more there is to do now than even a decade a go. It’s food and music scene is awesome.
I haven’t been to Winnipeg in a long time, since before COVID. But I do get to Fort Francis when I go to the 'Falls. I miss the days when we could just pass the border without the hassle it’s become today. I used to have family up in Roseau years ago. Might still be some shirttail outlaws up there.
My Daughter works for a non-profit too. She does research on not only public charging for vehicles, but also HVAC systems for homes across the US. I have also had to swim in the ocean of paperwork of state and federal grants. Few survive the experience for long. May God 'ha mercy on your soul!
For hybrids, I drive a Prius and mostly on the highway (70mph speed limit here) and I generally get 40-45mpg. I haven’t had anything to wrong with the hybrid side, and it’s not a plug-in hybrid. Prices are kinda high for them right now, but I got mine for $10k used about 10 years/90k miles ago (had 60k miles when I got it).
That said, I’m in Utah where winter temps rarely go below 10F, so I have no insight into really could winters.
But yeah, EVs really need to come down in price to make sense for me.
That’s great for you, I’m kind of jealous. The Prius is a very good vehicle, either as hybrid or ICE.
Where do you live that it’s often -30? And if you need to drive 300mi to a doctor’s for a medical emergency at that one time if year, do you have someone else you could ask or only drive there and worrying about charging later?
Northern Minnesota often sees those temperatures. And if it’s a real medical emergency, you could well be dead by the time anyone can get to you - IF you have cell service to make a call. If they do make it to you, you will probably be airlifted by helicopter. Making a a 100+ mile trip, would be just for a clinic visit or even to pick up a prescription, which I did last Saturday for my Wife.
100+ miles is fine for most any EV. My bolt during the winter was still able to get 200mi+ at 70mph in sub zero F weather. With a home charger it’s fine. It’s road trips that would push further. I’ve found charging adds maybe 25% time to long trips. But that doesn’t seem to be the use case you’re referring to.