Even at the peak of the USSR’s incarcerations, they were lower in number both per capita and in total than the US Prison system.
This you?
I’m honestly not fishing for a gotcha. I’m fishing to talk some sense into you.
I think you’re making statements without caring whether they’re true (just basing them on whether they feel right to you), and shifting your definitions around, and refusing to clarify what you mean or the details of what you’re advocating. IDK, man, if me trying to pin you down on what you mean or poke holes in what you’re saying comes across as hostile, then I apologize. That’s just kind of my way of speaking sometimes.
But overall, I think you have succumbed to this sort of groupthink that makes you think that things make sense when they don’t or when there are significant flaws in them. Now you’re falling back on accusing me of saying it has to play out like the USSR, when I said multiple times that it doesn’t, and I guess implying that I don’t like socialism when I listed some great socialist things already. I think you don’t want to “lose” the conversation and are just kind of twisting things around to be able to accuse me of being wrong.
It’s pretty clear by my wording that I was referring to when they were contemporaries, not the peak right after WWII to modern US, lol. Again, silliness.
I think you’re making statements without caring whether they’re true (just basing them on whether they feel right to you), and shifting your definitions around, and refusing to clarify what you mean or the details of what you’re advocating.
Here’s a mirror, lol. You haven’t answered my questions and constantly duck and weave.
Here, I’ll extend an olive branch. I can list several things, and you can tell me where you disagree.
Capitalism has the following flaws:
Ownership of Capital by individuals results in a class conflict between Workers and Owners, resulting in a tumultuous society
Production of commodities for profit rather than use results in products designed to make profits rather than fulfill uses, ie enshittification
Capitalism cannot exist forever because of the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall, which leads to Imperialism and eventually fascism and collapse
You haven’t answered my questions and constantly duck and weave.
Have I not answered questions? What haven’t I answered? I’m happy to go back and address things if you feel like I evaded something.
Here, I’ll extend an olive branch. I can list several things, and you can tell me where you disagree.
Capitalism has the following flaws:
Sure.
Ownership of Capital by individuals results in a class conflict between Workers and Owners, resulting in a tumultuous society
Agree
Production of commodities for profit rather than use results in products designed to make profits rather than fulfill uses, ie enshittification
Agree
Capitalism cannot exist forever because of the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall, which leads to Imperialism and eventually fascism and collapse
I mean, a building can’t last forever because of its tendency to decay and fall apart, but then if you maintain it properly, it’s fine, for long enough to be useful.
I think this is the core of our disagreement: I would agree about the tendency, but not the inevitability. Like I said, I think that particular elements (strong labor unions and a strong-in-practice democratic government) can constrain capitalism to where it functions well and gives a good world to the people connected to it, but doesn’t take over and become a destructive force (as it is today to a large extent).
It sounds like you’re saying that the flaws are unfixable and so capitalism has to be rejected in order to make a good system. Which, I mean maybe, but in my mind that’s unproven.
It also sounds like you’re saying that because of these flaws, we need to replace capitalism specifically with communism or socialism and asserting that it’ll be better. Which again, I mean maybe, but it seems like you’re being consistently evasive about the details of what that would mean (either through details or a historical example), which makes it conveniently easy to hold up the theory of how wonderful it could be, against the actual reality of how capitalism is in practice, and assert that of course it would work better than capitalism in practice, because capitalism has these problems.
You’re on the right track, but haven’t taken it to the logical conclusion. The Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall happens beause of competition, and the floor is subsistence. The less labor constitutes the overall value of commodities due to automation, the lower the profit. That’s where Imperialism comes in, and as the global south also automates, rates of profit crumble. There’s no scenario where Capitalism is maintained.
Socialism gets rid of that issue by abolishing competition and the profit motive. Rather than for exchange, goods are produced for use.
My question is (1) why can’t labor unions fight back against that tendency indefinitely, if given enough power to demand a reasonable share of the extra value of their labor (2) why is socialism guaranteed to get rid of that issue in practice; where has this been tried and worked out that way in reality to make sure it matches the theory
It’s pretty clear by my wording that I was referring to when they were contemporaries, not the peak right after WWII to modern US, lol. Again, silliness.
Oh – and I’m really trying not to get caught up in this extended back-and-forth over individual details because super fine details are not the point, but saying the USSR’s incarcerations at their peak were lower than contemporary US imprisonment is even sillier. In 1940, the US had 0.2% of its people in prison, which is an actually-reasonable level for a decent country, and lower than the USSR’s before-WW2-fucked-the-demographics level of 0.7% (1.5 million in prison out of 194 million people), which is equal to the US’s peak of 0.7% and lower than its current level (I was wrong - it’s dropped to 0.5% now, which is still of course way too much).
The skyrocketing of prison population from 0.2% to 0.7% happened pretty quickly, from 1980 to 2008, under the great neoliberal enfuckening of the country that was the end of the millennium. It’s been going back down, slightly, since then.
I would like the system in the US to be back again more like the one that had the 0.2% that had lasted for 204 years up until that point, and work from there to make more justice at home and abroad. You could say that Reagan and Clinton are inevitable final stages of the system that no amount of safeguard can prevent, and there’s no way to improve it within its parameters. I mean, maybe. But I still think it’s reasonable to ask, okay even in that case what is the system we will do instead, that will prevent Reagan or Clinton from being replaced with a new Stalin (or, because of lukewarm support for the liberals from “pure” leftists, a Trump – which is exactly how it happened in pre-Nazi Germany that led to Hitler) who will then make the days of “welfare to work” and 0.7% in prison look like wonderful happy days.
“The Social Democrats and Communists were bitterly divided and unable to formulate an effective solution: this gave the Nazis their opportunity”
“By now the SA had 400,000 members and its running street battles with the SPD and Communist paramilitaries (who also fought each other)”
“Under Comintern directives, the Communists maintained their policy of treating the Social Democrats as the main enemy, calling them ‘social fascists’, thereby splintering opposition to the Nazis.”
“Later, both the Social Democrats and the Communists accused each other of having facilitated Hitler’s rise to power by their unwillingness to compromise.”
Etc etc and so on. I don’t think that there exists a far left in recognized US politics in the same way there was an official communist party in Germany. But I definitely see parallels between Lemmy leftists who don’t want to support the Democrats against Trump, and German Communists who wanted to pick fights with the SPD (and, sure, vice versa) instead of uniting with them against Hitler.
The SPD, at least, united towards the end with the Center Party and the DVP to support Hindenburg for chancellor as a last attempt to stop Hitler, but by then it was sort of too late anyway; the main damage had already been done. Hindenburg’s death hastened the process of Hitler taking over, but it was pretty much in the cards one way or another from 1932 on.
Are you talking about the SPD supporting Hindenburg as siding with the fascists? I think they only did that because the alternative would be Hitler. Or what do you mean?
Mind sharing some numbers?
Sure.
Incarceration rates in the US showing the 0.2% or lower rate up until 1980, and then the skyrocket to 0.683% by 2000
Gulag population figures; 1.5 million in 1940 means 0.7% of the USSR’s 194 million population, and 1.5-1.7 million dead out of 18 million total who passed through the system means almost 10% fatality rate for being imprisoned there
Rather than joining up with the leftists, they sided with the fascists. This was after the SPD had sided with the Kaiser and had constantly made an enemy of the KPD.
Rather than joining up with the leftists, they sided with the fascists
They did battle with the fascists in the streets, and once the Nazis were clearly on the verge of seizing power, they allied with their enemies in government to get behind Hindenburg to try to stop it from happening.
The “rather then joining up with the leftists” part of it is accurate. Of course, the converse is also true – rather than joining up with the SPD, the leftists did battle with the SPD, called the SPD the main enemy, and even as late as the presidental election in 1932, were still running their own candidate, splintering off 13.1% of the vote away from Hindenburg, meaning that Hindenburg squeaked into office on a weakened mandate and Hitler was the de facto man in charge even before Hindenburg’s death. And, all the while and after, the KPD kept insisting that it was all the SPD’s fault.
It was the last election many of the far left people saw, since they died in the camps before the next election came, years and years later under allied occupation. It is of course impossible to know whether the ones who died in the camps still felt it was the SPD’s fault.
If you live in the US, you might get a chance to see how this all operates firsthand, from inside whatever the modern version of the camps is. You can of course argue that it’s someone else’s fault, and they should have compromised with you, instead of the other way around. Who knows, there’s an argument that you’d be right (and that Biden shouldn’t have alienated all the anti-genocide people). Of course, if that happens, your argument of course won’t mean shit in terms of saving you (or saving any Palestinian population which is suffering ten times worse under Trump’s administration than it was under the one you’re currently criticizing, although your criticism has perfect validity.)
I have spent as much time as I want to spend trying to talk sense into you.
This you?
I’m honestly not fishing for a gotcha. I’m fishing to talk some sense into you.
I think you’re making statements without caring whether they’re true (just basing them on whether they feel right to you), and shifting your definitions around, and refusing to clarify what you mean or the details of what you’re advocating. IDK, man, if me trying to pin you down on what you mean or poke holes in what you’re saying comes across as hostile, then I apologize. That’s just kind of my way of speaking sometimes.
But overall, I think you have succumbed to this sort of groupthink that makes you think that things make sense when they don’t or when there are significant flaws in them. Now you’re falling back on accusing me of saying it has to play out like the USSR, when I said multiple times that it doesn’t, and I guess implying that I don’t like socialism when I listed some great socialist things already. I think you don’t want to “lose” the conversation and are just kind of twisting things around to be able to accuse me of being wrong.
IDK man. Like I say, I tried. Good talk.
It’s pretty clear by my wording that I was referring to when they were contemporaries, not the peak right after WWII to modern US, lol. Again, silliness.
Here’s a mirror, lol. You haven’t answered my questions and constantly duck and weave.
Here, I’ll extend an olive branch. I can list several things, and you can tell me where you disagree.
Capitalism has the following flaws:
Ownership of Capital by individuals results in a class conflict between Workers and Owners, resulting in a tumultuous society
Production of commodities for profit rather than use results in products designed to make profits rather than fulfill uses, ie enshittification
Capitalism cannot exist forever because of the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall, which leads to Imperialism and eventually fascism and collapse
Have I not answered questions? What haven’t I answered? I’m happy to go back and address things if you feel like I evaded something.
Sure.
Agree
Agree
I mean, a building can’t last forever because of its tendency to decay and fall apart, but then if you maintain it properly, it’s fine, for long enough to be useful.
I think this is the core of our disagreement: I would agree about the tendency, but not the inevitability. Like I said, I think that particular elements (strong labor unions and a strong-in-practice democratic government) can constrain capitalism to where it functions well and gives a good world to the people connected to it, but doesn’t take over and become a destructive force (as it is today to a large extent).
It sounds like you’re saying that the flaws are unfixable and so capitalism has to be rejected in order to make a good system. Which, I mean maybe, but in my mind that’s unproven.
It also sounds like you’re saying that because of these flaws, we need to replace capitalism specifically with communism or socialism and asserting that it’ll be better. Which again, I mean maybe, but it seems like you’re being consistently evasive about the details of what that would mean (either through details or a historical example), which makes it conveniently easy to hold up the theory of how wonderful it could be, against the actual reality of how capitalism is in practice, and assert that of course it would work better than capitalism in practice, because capitalism has these problems.
You’re on the right track, but haven’t taken it to the logical conclusion. The Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall happens beause of competition, and the floor is subsistence. The less labor constitutes the overall value of commodities due to automation, the lower the profit. That’s where Imperialism comes in, and as the global south also automates, rates of profit crumble. There’s no scenario where Capitalism is maintained.
Socialism gets rid of that issue by abolishing competition and the profit motive. Rather than for exchange, goods are produced for use.
I feel like we’re going in circles
Yes, I understand
My question is (1) why can’t labor unions fight back against that tendency indefinitely, if given enough power to demand a reasonable share of the extra value of their labor (2) why is socialism guaranteed to get rid of that issue in practice; where has this been tried and worked out that way in reality to make sure it matches the theory
Unions can’t fight back against competition being a thing. I think you’re confusing RoP with wages.
The Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall has been absent from every Socialist country.
Oh – and I’m really trying not to get caught up in this extended back-and-forth over individual details because super fine details are not the point, but saying the USSR’s incarcerations at their peak were lower than contemporary US imprisonment is even sillier. In 1940, the US had 0.2% of its people in prison, which is an actually-reasonable level for a decent country, and lower than the USSR’s before-WW2-fucked-the-demographics level of 0.7% (1.5 million in prison out of 194 million people), which is equal to the US’s peak of 0.7% and lower than its current level (I was wrong - it’s dropped to 0.5% now, which is still of course way too much).
The skyrocketing of prison population from 0.2% to 0.7% happened pretty quickly, from 1980 to 2008, under the great neoliberal enfuckening of the country that was the end of the millennium. It’s been going back down, slightly, since then.
I would like the system in the US to be back again more like the one that had the 0.2% that had lasted for 204 years up until that point, and work from there to make more justice at home and abroad. You could say that Reagan and Clinton are inevitable final stages of the system that no amount of safeguard can prevent, and there’s no way to improve it within its parameters. I mean, maybe. But I still think it’s reasonable to ask, okay even in that case what is the system we will do instead, that will prevent Reagan or Clinton from being replaced with a new Stalin (or, because of lukewarm support for the liberals from “pure” leftists, a Trump – which is exactly how it happened in pre-Nazi Germany that led to Hitler) who will then make the days of “welfare to work” and 0.7% in prison look like wonderful happy days.
This is some spicy historical revisionism, haha. Liberals sided with the fascists in Nazi Germany, not the other way around.
Mind sharing some numbers?
Hm? Maybe I’m misunderstanding something. Here, look, I’ll cite my super professional research.
Etc etc and so on. I don’t think that there exists a far left in recognized US politics in the same way there was an official communist party in Germany. But I definitely see parallels between Lemmy leftists who don’t want to support the Democrats against Trump, and German Communists who wanted to pick fights with the SPD (and, sure, vice versa) instead of uniting with them against Hitler.
The SPD, at least, united towards the end with the Center Party and the DVP to support Hindenburg for chancellor as a last attempt to stop Hitler, but by then it was sort of too late anyway; the main damage had already been done. Hindenburg’s death hastened the process of Hitler taking over, but it was pretty much in the cards one way or another from 1932 on.
Are you talking about the SPD supporting Hindenburg as siding with the fascists? I think they only did that because the alternative would be Hitler. Or what do you mean?
Sure.
So the Social Democrats did side with the Nazis instead of leftists, got it.
Thanks for the numbers, again though the vast majority of deaths were due to mass starvation during WWII aftet Ukraine was invaded by the Nazis.
What are you talking about?
Rather than joining up with the leftists, they sided with the fascists. This was after the SPD had sided with the Kaiser and had constantly made an enemy of the KPD.
By the way, you were mistaken about what happened after WWII, you may wish to read more.
They did battle with the fascists in the streets, and once the Nazis were clearly on the verge of seizing power, they allied with their enemies in government to get behind Hindenburg to try to stop it from happening.
The “rather then joining up with the leftists” part of it is accurate. Of course, the converse is also true – rather than joining up with the SPD, the leftists did battle with the SPD, called the SPD the main enemy, and even as late as the presidental election in 1932, were still running their own candidate, splintering off 13.1% of the vote away from Hindenburg, meaning that Hindenburg squeaked into office on a weakened mandate and Hitler was the de facto man in charge even before Hindenburg’s death. And, all the while and after, the KPD kept insisting that it was all the SPD’s fault.
It was the last election many of the far left people saw, since they died in the camps before the next election came, years and years later under allied occupation. It is of course impossible to know whether the ones who died in the camps still felt it was the SPD’s fault.
If you live in the US, you might get a chance to see how this all operates firsthand, from inside whatever the modern version of the camps is. You can of course argue that it’s someone else’s fault, and they should have compromised with you, instead of the other way around. Who knows, there’s an argument that you’d be right (and that Biden shouldn’t have alienated all the anti-genocide people). Of course, if that happens, your argument of course won’t mean shit in terms of saving you (or saving any Palestinian population which is suffering ten times worse under Trump’s administration than it was under the one you’re currently criticizing, although your criticism has perfect validity.)
I have spent as much time as I want to spend trying to talk sense into you.