Peaceful protests are promoted by those in power as the ultimate form of expression because it’s completely inconsequential to them and easily ignored.
I am with you on that point. And I didn’t mention stuff like road blocks, because I see them related to the issue and they may yield some results.
But a large part of the population oposses the last generation and in extension what they are trying to do.
Not that I have a good solution.
I am nearly 40 now, and fighting in this fight since I am 16. I know how much was done and that nothing happened on a political layer.
But giving politicians such a large attack surface by committing serious crimes (and braking onto the airfield of an airport is a serious crime) is not very smart
The idea of last generation is to bring up the climate crisis on a regular bases. They are actually extremely good at it. Seriously they got more articles written about them, then Fridays for Future got at their peak.
I honestly believe them turning on hitting the rich, rather then more average Germans is a smart move though. The general sympathy towards people flying private jets is rather limited.
I am just stating facts. There is no personal emotion involved. Fact is, this move was not surprising. And I am expecting to see actual climate theorists soon. Yes. Because we reached a dead end.
But if we can’t even state facts here without triggering many of us, we have an issue.
Anyhow, that said, there are rules for protesting. And, once again, braking into an airport violates multiple laws, with punishment up to 10 fucking years in prison.
Was it that dangerous for passengers as some of the media says? I don’t think so.
Did it change somebody’s state of mind? No. Did it shed a bad light on the movement? Fucking yes.
Terrorism works because of fear. This does not spark fear. This results in anger of the wider population.
My opinion:
If we want to make sure the next generations have a livable planet we must change the mindset of the general population. And we can not do this this way.
Apply that rationalist view on politics to any other significant historical progress against exploitation and you will understand how “abide to the rules of protest” is not as rational as you think.
Some examples
8hours working day
Voting rights
Voting rights for women
End of racial laws
Your right to organize, demonstrate at all
Rulebreaking of social movements fighting against the immense irrationalities of oppression (like “lets burn the planet cause the mystical market monster demands it”) is what gave you your rights…
Ah yes, the famous airport blockades od those events. Oh, wait …
Yeah absolutely comparable!!!
No! Those activits crossed a line where they were willing to risk life’s. And this is the point where I refuse to keep my personal feelings out of this discussion.
If you block an airport, you are willing to risk other people’s life. And your mindset shows that we are very close to terrorism.
And, most of all, this pisses me of because nearly every idiot involved in this has a China made phone in his pocket that would not exist without air traffic.
You want environmental terrorism? Fine! But be consequentl. Don’t buy electronics, don’t buy or use stuff that needs rare earth’s, oil, or other polluting stuff.
Running over an air field to protest against climate change while recording ourself with your iPhone! Nice!
But! Still I don’t have the opinion that the last generation itself is a criminal organization. Still, some members do everything they can to prove the police and critics correct
8 hour day protestors got into firefights with the police on dozens of occasions. They killed police, foremen, Pinkerton stooges, and more. The civil rights law was won on the back of hundreds of riots all across the US. The history they teach in schools is explicitly designed to hide the true history of class struggle.
So here’s the thing, like you said, we already have laws to prevent the actions of these “protestors”. So they could easily address their actions by enforcing those laws. But instead they’re making protesting itself, or at least the creation of protest groups, an illegal activity. This isn’t a response to those events. This is them reaching into their grab bag of wishes and using the event as an excuse to snatch more liberties, and extend their power, as they’ve always wished to do.
No they don’t. Currently, they are investigating and we don’t know all facts. If tue only facts are the one we know, and a court still decides in the favor of the prosecution, than we have a serious issue. But we are not at this point (yet)
The law is meant to be used against serious organized crime groups like the Mafia. It requires fairly serious crimes being planned and commited by the group to be used, which carry at least two years of prison for them. The problem with it, is that is that ‘forming a criminal organisation’ means 5 years of prision for any member and 3 years for a supporter.
This could mean that the German government locks up basically the entire German climate movement.
I am not talking about a road. Interrupting air traffic is a crime with up to 10 years of prison. There is a difference between people in cars and people’s in flying cans that at some point run out of fuel. At least this is the reasoning behind this. Not saying that was the case for this incident. Just why this law exists.
Says the one writing on a device some text, and sending it to a server. And both pieces of hardware are send around the world multiple times. Their raw resources, assembled parts and the whole systems.
But: we need alternatives to fossils fuel for planes. And, of course, short range flights or flying to Mallorcavjust to drink,puke and piss, should be forbidden.
We can’t remove planes without removing a huge part of the stuff that we are dependent on every single day.
To find compromises, we have to start at the extremes. But there is no seek for compromise. And after all, we are to late for compromises.
And btw, if you read my comments, I also don’t assume that anybody was in danger. But imagine someone disturbs air traffic vor 4-8 hours?
I just explained why there is a law against such things.
This is a legal term and civil disobedience has never been punished like this by German authorities. It was mainly a fine and maybe a few days in prison and not years.
dangerous interference with air traffic (up to 10 years in prison)
Only for the airport actions. The law is targeted at every organization where the primary goal is to commit crimes. We can argue about that part, but that does not mean that this was an expected step by the prosecution. (The government is not involved in criminal prosecution btw …)
Just to be clear, I am not defending the prosecutors here. Or the last generation.
Also, you’re talking a lot in this thread about what is “legal”, so just to remind you that the holocaust was legal, as was slavery, as were many other atrocities.
Basing your moral compass on what the ruling class has told you you are and aren’t allowed to do is such an uncritical, counterproductive, and honestly pathetic way to see the world, but to apply your own, now faulty, “morals” on to others makes you complicit, and in direct service of said ruling class. Well done.
Yes I do talk about what is lega, because for some fucking reason, i have to explain why I was not surprised. I also talk about the fact that this does not mean that I agree with law ans prosecution.
I layed out where I draw the line: hypocrisy. If you are willing to risk life’s , be consequent in your actions.
Also, I tried to show how the general public, again not my views, sees the last generation because of what they do.
The assumption seems to be: if we just so such stunts, something will change. But we reached a point where the protest actions alienate politicians and the general public. And without support for the idea itself we are fucked. Or more, the generations after us are fucked
To be honest, that is bot surprising to me. The group broke into airports caused massive damage to Public property and more.
The methods of the last generation are nor helpful to the goals for our climate and cause more damage in the public eye
I used to think that. However, we’ve had lots of peaceful protests and whatnot.
That did not seem to do anything and time ran out awhile ago.
Peaceful protests are promoted by those in power as the ultimate form of expression because it’s completely inconsequential to them and easily ignored.
I am with you on that point. And I didn’t mention stuff like road blocks, because I see them related to the issue and they may yield some results.
But a large part of the population oposses the last generation and in extension what they are trying to do.
Not that I have a good solution.
I am nearly 40 now, and fighting in this fight since I am 16. I know how much was done and that nothing happened on a political layer.
But giving politicians such a large attack surface by committing serious crimes (and braking onto the airfield of an airport is a serious crime) is not very smart
The idea of last generation is to bring up the climate crisis on a regular bases. They are actually extremely good at it. Seriously they got more articles written about them, then Fridays for Future got at their peak.
I honestly believe them turning on hitting the rich, rather then more average Germans is a smart move though. The general sympathy towards people flying private jets is rather limited.
Oh, there I am with you! 100%
It’s a petty that it is rather hard to burn those private machines down …
I’m a bit past 40 and experience shows me that nothing has worked so far. I don’t have a solution either.
If there is one though, I am pretty sure it’s not peaceful.
You are for certain right on this. And I expect that happening soon.
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I am just stating facts. There is no personal emotion involved. Fact is, this move was not surprising. And I am expecting to see actual climate theorists soon. Yes. Because we reached a dead end.
But if we can’t even state facts here without triggering many of us, we have an issue.
Anyhow, that said, there are rules for protesting. And, once again, braking into an airport violates multiple laws, with punishment up to 10 fucking years in prison.
Was it that dangerous for passengers as some of the media says? I don’t think so.
Did it change somebody’s state of mind? No. Did it shed a bad light on the movement? Fucking yes.
Terrorism works because of fear. This does not spark fear. This results in anger of the wider population.
My opinion: If we want to make sure the next generations have a livable planet we must change the mindset of the general population. And we can not do this this way.
Apply that rationalist view on politics to any other significant historical progress against exploitation and you will understand how “abide to the rules of protest” is not as rational as you think. Some examples 8hours working day Voting rights Voting rights for women End of racial laws Your right to organize, demonstrate at all
Rulebreaking of social movements fighting against the immense irrationalities of oppression (like “lets burn the planet cause the mystical market monster demands it”) is what gave you your rights…
Ah yes, the famous airport blockades od those events. Oh, wait …
Yeah absolutely comparable!!!
No! Those activits crossed a line where they were willing to risk life’s. And this is the point where I refuse to keep my personal feelings out of this discussion.
If you block an airport, you are willing to risk other people’s life. And your mindset shows that we are very close to terrorism.
And, most of all, this pisses me of because nearly every idiot involved in this has a China made phone in his pocket that would not exist without air traffic.
You want environmental terrorism? Fine! But be consequentl. Don’t buy electronics, don’t buy or use stuff that needs rare earth’s, oil, or other polluting stuff.
Running over an air field to protest against climate change while recording ourself with your iPhone! Nice!
But! Still I don’t have the opinion that the last generation itself is a criminal organization. Still, some members do everything they can to prove the police and critics correct
8 hour day protestors got into firefights with the police on dozens of occasions. They killed police, foremen, Pinkerton stooges, and more. The civil rights law was won on the back of hundreds of riots all across the US. The history they teach in schools is explicitly designed to hide the true history of class struggle.
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So here’s the thing, like you said, we already have laws to prevent the actions of these “protestors”. So they could easily address their actions by enforcing those laws. But instead they’re making protesting itself, or at least the creation of protest groups, an illegal activity. This isn’t a response to those events. This is them reaching into their grab bag of wishes and using the event as an excuse to snatch more liberties, and extend their power, as they’ve always wished to do.
No they don’t. Currently, they are investigating and we don’t know all facts. If tue only facts are the one we know, and a court still decides in the favor of the prosecution, than we have a serious issue. But we are not at this point (yet)
The law is meant to be used against serious organized crime groups like the Mafia. It requires fairly serious crimes being planned and commited by the group to be used, which carry at least two years of prison for them. The problem with it, is that is that ‘forming a criminal organisation’ means 5 years of prision for any member and 3 years for a supporter.
This could mean that the German government locks up basically the entire German climate movement.
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It is in the fucking StGB. Neither you nor me define what a serious crime is, the law does. Do I agree? No. But it is still the law.
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I am not talking about a road. Interrupting air traffic is a crime with up to 10 years of prison. There is a difference between people in cars and people’s in flying cans that at some point run out of fuel. At least this is the reasoning behind this. Not saying that was the case for this incident. Just why this law exists.
Removed by mod
Says the one writing on a device some text, and sending it to a server. And both pieces of hardware are send around the world multiple times. Their raw resources, assembled parts and the whole systems.
But: we need alternatives to fossils fuel for planes. And, of course, short range flights or flying to Mallorcavjust to drink,puke and piss, should be forbidden.
We can’t remove planes without removing a huge part of the stuff that we are dependent on every single day.
To find compromises, we have to start at the extremes. But there is no seek for compromise. And after all, we are to late for compromises.
And btw, if you read my comments, I also don’t assume that anybody was in danger. But imagine someone disturbs air traffic vor 4-8 hours? I just explained why there is a law against such things.
This is a legal term and civil disobedience has never been punished like this by German authorities. It was mainly a fine and maybe a few days in prison and not years.
We are talking about:
Only for the airport actions. The law is targeted at every organization where the primary goal is to commit crimes. We can argue about that part, but that does not mean that this was an expected step by the prosecution. (The government is not involved in criminal prosecution btw …)
Just to be clear, I am not defending the prosecutors here. Or the last generation.
Oh, won’t somebody think of the property! (the damage which was caused being miniscule in comparison to what’s to come with climate change)
Also, you’re talking a lot in this thread about what is “legal”, so just to remind you that the holocaust was legal, as was slavery, as were many other atrocities.
Basing your moral compass on what the ruling class has told you you are and aren’t allowed to do is such an uncritical, counterproductive, and honestly pathetic way to see the world, but to apply your own, now faulty, “morals” on to others makes you complicit, and in direct service of said ruling class. Well done.
Yes I do talk about what is lega, because for some fucking reason, i have to explain why I was not surprised. I also talk about the fact that this does not mean that I agree with law ans prosecution.
I layed out where I draw the line: hypocrisy. If you are willing to risk life’s , be consequent in your actions.
Also, I tried to show how the general public, again not my views, sees the last generation because of what they do.
The assumption seems to be: if we just so such stunts, something will change. But we reached a point where the protest actions alienate politicians and the general public. And without support for the idea itself we are fucked. Or more, the generations after us are fucked
deleted by creator