classifying in genres is by definition gatekeeping. somewhere you have to draw a line between punk and everything else, otherwise the term punk loses all meaning.
People have been saying Green Day aren’t punk since Dookie. That’s always been a thing with punk. Once you leave the underground clubs of NYC, you’re pop.
The day Trump was elected I was excited for a new wave of anti-government human-rights protest music. The best we got was “This Is America”.
Edit: I appreciate the few examples you’ve offered but I was thinking of the movements of the 60s and 80s. It wasn’t just the hippie peace love anti war music or rap music, it was poetry, fiction, movies, documentaries. It was the culture around the people rising up to protest their government. Now any shmoe can tweet at the president.
Oh shit! How could I forget the best of the best when it comes to leftist punk: Propagandhi! "Less Talk More Rock and Today’s Empires, Tomorrow’s Ashes are essential listening. I’m hella dating myself with these albums, the Adderall has kicked in way too late I guess
Check out Poor Man’s Poison and, if you’re a rap fan, Cal Scruby has some pretty on-topic pieces (“Captain America” comes to mind as an explicit example).
But seriously, checkout Poor Man’s Poison, he encapsulates almost everything that I’m feeling.
Not punk but industrial. Though KMFDM has always been political. But there’s a few tracks on the new album that are far less subtle than usual.
Also forgot to point out that punk was a product of its time. And it’s environment. Very much a DIY ethic. Which lent to its sound. DIY today is going to sound a lot different. Unless people are going to ape the sound without any of the influence.
Even many of the iconic punkers got tired of it and moved on when new things became available. As mentioned John Lyden AKA Johnny rotten. Left the pistols for Public Image limited. Last I heard Jell-O was still trying to get into California politics?
Huh, TIL. He’s a shitbag, but I really think guys like him do it because being a backwards ass hat is unpopular now and he only knows how to be against things, not for them.
I was like that in my teens and early 20s. Not conservative, just hated anything that appeared popular. I was insufferable. This dude really seems like an old ass pizza cutter. All edge, no point.
You’re absolutely right. The DIY landscape is so incredibly different. Now you can get an electric guitar with reasonable QC and an amp with modeling and a hundred presets that plugs directly into your computer to record. There’s loads of free lessons online that show people how to play instruments. There are tabs for almost every song put out by any semi-popular artist so you don’t have to try to reverse engineer them anymore. There are backing tracks. We didn’t have any of that shit. We had a solid state amp with two channels, one of which was poorly distorted.
And I’m here for it. It’s not my dad’s punk. It’s not my punk and pop punk. It belongs to new people and I’m excited for them to look back at it the way I look back at the bands that excited me when I was a kid. They’ll have new genres built upon the shoulders of the ones I listened to, which stood on the shoulders of those that came before.
Yep at the time an old guitar and a beat-up drum set was realistically what you’re getting. Maybe a basic organ / keyboard. Which is what led to the distinct sound along with General lack of production and mastering.
Now you can pick up second hand synthesizer sequencers etc etc etc. The Landscapes opened up a lot more and as you said with digital audio workstations Etc pretty much make any sort of sound you want.
I grew up in (what I perceive as) the heyday of punk, but mostly ignored it. Lately I’ve been tempted to take a closer look at some of those old punk bands I always heard about back in the day.
Those kids were right. Not so much as adults anymore some of them. John Lydon in particular having become a bit of a disappointment. But it’s still a fun era and easy to listen through. Seeing as it really encompassed about a 5 to 6 year span.
Post Punk/ dance Punk is having a bit of a Resurgence again though. Lots of good new stuff coming out. Though not as much political necessarily.
Posing the same question as I did to someone else - can you recommend an entry point or two? Heavy on the political/social messaging is fine with me, but a more understandable lyrical style than what I remember of a lot of those old punk bands would be preferred.
Wikipedia has a decent list to get an entry point. At least for the big ones. Start following any of those through YouTube Spotify Etc and you’ll get down into rabbit holes of small bands that only put out a few songs as live bootlegs that only five people in the world remember. Rabbit holes are always a good time.
Punk was a musical big bang of a sort. I spend most of my time in adjacent subgenre. Most people do without realizing it honestly. Postpunk, goth, new wave, alternative, and industrial all descend from it. As well as other genera like ska, psychobilly, and horror punk. Though I’d argue that a lot of the political sentiment today is in industrial and EBM. Alec Empire and Atari Teenage Riot 20 years ago were suuuper political. I mentioned KMFDM elsewhere, they go way way back to the early 80s. Even Trent Reznor and nine inch nails, very political. Even male model Marc Massive and his group Massive Ego. Really continues the political and social commentary.
I will do - can you recommend an entry point or two? Heavy on the political/social messaging is fine with me, but a more understandable lyrical style than what I remember of a lot of those old punk bands would be preferred.
On Wikipedia Rancid, NOFX, Penny Wise all have a similar paragraph about all the other bands that came out of the same area and Green Day is in all of them.
Green Day may have shifted over time into Rock or Pop Punk as you say but make no mistake when they originated they were Punk. Especially if NOFX, Penny Wise, and Rancid is. The problem is that when a band hits it, they are usually tagged with whatever they were defined as from then on. So they are punk because they were originally punk. I know I am arguing and I am not meaning to. Just trying to point out that there isn’t much reason to say they aren’t punk anymore.
It’s like my argument about “hover boards” I lost that one a long time ago and it doesn’t help anyone to keep correcting people an say it’s not a hoverboard. The name stuck from the start.
I don’t man, I don’t consider them punk punk but pop punk, but still doesn’t change your statement.
I’m still surprised punk hasn’t made a come back. We are dying of old age and this is the right environment for punk to flourish.
The least punk thing is to gatekeep the genre.
Classifying them pop rock would be gatekeeping. I still classified them within the punk genre and still agreed with their statement of punk.
classifying in genres is by definition gatekeeping. somewhere you have to draw a line between punk and everything else, otherwise the term punk loses all meaning.
“Genres are the death of creativity”
stupid sentiment.
People have been saying Green Day aren’t punk since Dookie. That’s always been a thing with punk. Once you leave the underground clubs of NYC, you’re pop.
The day Trump was elected I was excited for a new wave of anti-government human-rights protest music. The best we got was “This Is America”.
Edit: I appreciate the few examples you’ve offered but I was thinking of the movements of the 60s and 80s. It wasn’t just the hippie peace love anti war music or rap music, it was poetry, fiction, movies, documentaries. It was the culture around the people rising up to protest their government. Now any shmoe can tweet at the president.
Oh shit! How could I forget the best of the best when it comes to leftist punk: Propagandhi! "Less Talk More Rock and Today’s Empires, Tomorrow’s Ashes are essential listening. I’m hella dating myself with these albums, the Adderall has kicked in way too late I guess
Dead milkmen made a comeback.
https://youtu.be/QlcmIWGogkw
NOFX atleast had “The War On Errorism” during the W years, but it was mostly whelming
Check out Poor Man’s Poison and, if you’re a rap fan, Cal Scruby has some pretty on-topic pieces (“Captain America” comes to mind as an explicit example).
But seriously, check out Poor Man’s Poison, he encapsulates almost everything that I’m feeling.
Not punk but industrial. Though KMFDM has always been political. But there’s a few tracks on the new album that are far less subtle than usual.
Also forgot to point out that punk was a product of its time. And it’s environment. Very much a DIY ethic. Which lent to its sound. DIY today is going to sound a lot different. Unless people are going to ape the sound without any of the influence.
Even many of the iconic punkers got tired of it and moved on when new things became available. As mentioned John Lyden AKA Johnny rotten. Left the pistols for Public Image limited. Last I heard Jell-O was still trying to get into California politics?
Plus Lydon is a Right-Winger now.
Huh, TIL. He’s a shitbag, but I really think guys like him do it because being a backwards ass hat is unpopular now and he only knows how to be against things, not for them.
I was like that in my teens and early 20s. Not conservative, just hated anything that appeared popular. I was insufferable. This dude really seems like an old ass pizza cutter. All edge, no point.
deleted by creator
TL;Dr: Long, rambling old man shit incoming.
You’re absolutely right. The DIY landscape is so incredibly different. Now you can get an electric guitar with reasonable QC and an amp with modeling and a hundred presets that plugs directly into your computer to record. There’s loads of free lessons online that show people how to play instruments. There are tabs for almost every song put out by any semi-popular artist so you don’t have to try to reverse engineer them anymore. There are backing tracks. We didn’t have any of that shit. We had a solid state amp with two channels, one of which was poorly distorted.
And I’m here for it. It’s not my dad’s punk. It’s not my punk and pop punk. It belongs to new people and I’m excited for them to look back at it the way I look back at the bands that excited me when I was a kid. They’ll have new genres built upon the shoulders of the ones I listened to, which stood on the shoulders of those that came before.
Yep at the time an old guitar and a beat-up drum set was realistically what you’re getting. Maybe a basic organ / keyboard. Which is what led to the distinct sound along with General lack of production and mastering.
Now you can pick up second hand synthesizer sequencers etc etc etc. The Landscapes opened up a lot more and as you said with digital audio workstations Etc pretty much make any sort of sound you want.
I grew up in (what I perceive as) the heyday of punk, but mostly ignored it. Lately I’ve been tempted to take a closer look at some of those old punk bands I always heard about back in the day.
Those kids were right. Not so much as adults anymore some of them. John Lydon in particular having become a bit of a disappointment. But it’s still a fun era and easy to listen through. Seeing as it really encompassed about a 5 to 6 year span.
Post Punk/ dance Punk is having a bit of a Resurgence again though. Lots of good new stuff coming out. Though not as much political necessarily.
Posing the same question as I did to someone else - can you recommend an entry point or two? Heavy on the political/social messaging is fine with me, but a more understandable lyrical style than what I remember of a lot of those old punk bands would be preferred.
Wikipedia has a decent list to get an entry point. At least for the big ones. Start following any of those through YouTube Spotify Etc and you’ll get down into rabbit holes of small bands that only put out a few songs as live bootlegs that only five people in the world remember. Rabbit holes are always a good time.
Thank you!
Punk was a musical big bang of a sort. I spend most of my time in adjacent subgenre. Most people do without realizing it honestly. Postpunk, goth, new wave, alternative, and industrial all descend from it. As well as other genera like ska, psychobilly, and horror punk. Though I’d argue that a lot of the political sentiment today is in industrial and EBM. Alec Empire and Atari Teenage Riot 20 years ago were suuuper political. I mentioned KMFDM elsewhere, they go way way back to the early 80s. Even Trent Reznor and nine inch nails, very political. Even male model Marc Massive and his group Massive Ego. Really continues the political and social commentary.
Thank you very much, I am saving this for reference!
I would recommend listening to some.
I will do - can you recommend an entry point or two? Heavy on the political/social messaging is fine with me, but a more understandable lyrical style than what I remember of a lot of those old punk bands would be preferred.
The partisans, subhumans, the exploited, discharge.
Cheap sex, the casualties, cockney rejects for newer late 90s early 2k. Some of the ones I think would be what your are looking for.
Hardcore punk, oi, crust, anachro punk.
Thank you, I’ve saved this comment to use for reference.
At least they have been pretty consistent in their lean.
That’s true.
Check out Desaparecidos, side project of Conor Oberst. They have 2 albums, one in 2002, one in 2015, both just as relevant today.
I’m down with you being all in on the statement but I have a question for you.
What would you consider Punk in 1990 or even 94?
Like coming out in those years or still playing during those years?
I would day both. What do you consider punk during that time?
Narcoleptic youth, total chaos, rancid, one way system, nofx, penny wise.
Playing? TSOL, circle jerks, the adicts, D.I, the exploited
On Wikipedia Rancid, NOFX, Penny Wise all have a similar paragraph about all the other bands that came out of the same area and Green Day is in all of them.
Green Day may have shifted over time into Rock or Pop Punk as you say but make no mistake when they originated they were Punk. Especially if NOFX, Penny Wise, and Rancid is. The problem is that when a band hits it, they are usually tagged with whatever they were defined as from then on. So they are punk because they were originally punk. I know I am arguing and I am not meaning to. Just trying to point out that there isn’t much reason to say they aren’t punk anymore.
It’s like my argument about “hover boards” I lost that one a long time ago and it doesn’t help anyone to keep correcting people an say it’s not a hoverboard. The name stuck from the start.
The revolution will not be televised. It’s out there but there’s no money behind having them go big anymore.