• @[email protected]
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    1469 months ago

    Once the Abrahamic Religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) became huge. It’s all about “Women are evil sluts who do nothing but sin and tempt the good and pious men”, it’s pretty evident in modern societies that have large populations of people that follow these religions.

    • @[email protected]
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      9 months ago

      The correct answer has three upvotes, and Victorian era rises to the top. Well, at least you have 4 upvotes now.

    • @[email protected]
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      88 months ago

      I feel like it has to be much more complicated than this. Sure they influenced the culture but a lot of polytheistic cultures seemed to also have coverings

  • @[email protected]
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    1189 months ago

    Victorian England is responsible for most of our annoying modesty rules. As to why… I’m not certain, they were just fucking prudes.

    • @[email protected]
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      9 months ago

      Women have been covering their breasts for modesty for ~5,000 years, not 150. Used as a means of identifying which women are “respectable” and which women are “publicly available” to men, upper class women in ancient Mesopotamia were made to wear veils that were wrapped loosely over their hair and fell to their waists, but poorer women were not allowed, and faced harsh punishments if they dared to wear them.

    • FunkyMonk
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      329 months ago

      When your wealth system is nothing but cruel unfairness you always need somewhere else to point a finger, that somewhere was boobs.

    • @[email protected]
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      39 months ago

      Victorian England is responsible for most of our annoying modesty rules.

      Yeah, it’s why people still avoid showing any skin at all, why women still wear corsets, and why we still wear ridiculously large hats.

      And then we just never changed from then.

      • Jojo
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        29 months ago

        Hey, man, don’t shit on my corsets and hats.

    • deadcatbounce
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      13 months ago

      On the surface. You might want to look a little closer.

      The whole of London especially the East end, was a cesspool supported by the aristocracy. Jack the Ripper is still believed by many to have been a prince or someone of similar breeding.

    • @[email protected]
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      9 months ago

      I have been told that the taste of breast milk makes you want to hurt yourself, so Big Dairy is doing us all a favor with that one, honestly.

      I am more concerned with minimalism being a scheme by Big Small to sell us more less.

  • @hysterika
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    679 months ago

    Okay I’m gonna post something like an actual answer, which I feel like will get downvoted bc y’all are men but whatever.

    Women’s bodies are sexualized, plain and simple. Breasts perform the biological function of nourishing a baby, but that has seemingly become secondary to their entity as an object of sexual desire, namely by men. So you have 3 factors - breasts are seen as sexual in nature, sex is considered taboo in many western cultures, and men are generally the ones who hold positions of power. Put that all together and you have laws and cultural attitudes that require that breasts be concealed in public.

    Men’s nipples are completely fine though. Men can walk around shirtless (in many places, perhaps not “most” but 100% more than can be said for a woman) and no one bats an eye, but the female nipple is considered obscene because it is seen as sexual.

    All this “they don’t” “not in Europe” “yeah aren’t you disappointed” “hurr durr udders” fuckouttahere with that dismissive bullshit lmao

    • GladiusB
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      329 months ago

      I think OP knows all this and agrees with it as well. I think they were asking historically when the shift happened.

    • AmidFuror
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      189 months ago

      Breasts don’t need to be large throughout adult life for the purpose of nursing. Look at the non-human apes and other primates. The hypothesis that large adult human breasts outside of nursing evolved due to sexual selection is completely reasonable.

      Sexual selection is not inherently good or bad. It just is. If that theory is correct, then breasts which are (on many women) large before and between nursing stages came about due to sexual attraction. There was selection for women with larger breasts and selection for men attracted to them. It’s not the responsibility or fault of either sex, and the genes increasing both the attraction in males and the breast size in females are passed through both sexes. Fathers and mothers who have daughters with larger breasts and sons attracted to them will have more grandkids.

      None of this comes with the baggage of how we should set up our society. We can suppress sexual activity in public, demand consent, be free to cover or not cover regardless of how it was we got to where we are today.

    • @[email protected]
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      139 months ago

      Isn’t the breastfeeding function part of the reason breasts are sexualized? In other words - biologically males seek a female that can provide for her offspring so there’d be an evolutionary advantage for women who can at least appear to be able to do so.

    • @[email protected]
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      19 months ago

      I’m in Washington State.

      It’s not illegal for women to be topless. Anywhere that it’s acceptable for aan to be topless, legally it is the same for a woman.

      Anyways, I question the argument that western society has sexualized the female breast and that there’s not an inherent attraction there, and idgaf about frued or why even, it’s there. Every person who finds breasts attractive remembers the first time they saw a pair and were just dumbstruck in awe at them, like they were in silhouette with choirs singing.

      My thinking, besides covering up because of cold, is a safety issue, on multiple fronts.

      1. You got boobs on your chest, they can catch branches. scratch scratch, sweat, infection, ded. That’s a bad look.
      2. Motherfucking grabby people. especially back in ye olden where ppl took what they could get and it was a lot easier to get away with shit.
      3. Some men be thirsty, crazy thirsty. Or just crazy. Maybe if Helen had covered the fuck up Troy would still be a thing, we don’t know. And not to go full saudi levels of modesty, but there is some truth there. Yes. Teach your men not to rape, 100% could not agree more. But college cheer squads shouldnt do a 10k nude awkwardly dropping their things that are really hard to pick up. Imagine the millions of dollars of damage from ppl wrecking as they drove by. Imagine the headlines, “City Destroyed! Miles in ruins. 87 dead along the path of destruction. {Local university} cheer squad knew their one weakness, they were weak!”

      The points extreme but that’s also the point, in its vagueness we can all gleen the wisdom that is the sentences intent.

      I can flip it to prove the point. A football cornerback teaching college freshwomen their O-chem in grey sweats is gonna be suuuper distracting, yea? Especially as he has to show everyone how to set up titrations or distillation glassware.

      This isn’t new thinking. Modesty has existed for forever. Women do not need low cut clothing (even if it’s my fav) to be sexy. Sex appeal is within the person. Just think about the various ways a school uniform could be worn. It can made suggestive. How a person carries themselves (I call it grace) will make or break attractiveness, writ large.

      So idk. There’s a lot there. In my opinion and the law of my state, go ahead. It’s yr body, I don’t, nor should anyone, own you.

      I would be concerned for yr safety tho, cuz some folk jus be wack yo and some wack folk mob around w frens. It’s easy to get overwhelmed, for any of us, this ain’t the movies.

    • @[email protected]
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      18 months ago

      You are 100% correct.

      I think OP agrees with you too, but the question is more around the “why”. Once, we were also like animals, and didn’t have clothing. To the animal brain, things like large breasts or wide hips means better reproduction. Did we start to cover up because it was cold and we got sick? It makes more sense to me that we started for practical reasons, and the hyper-sexualization came later, probably with religion.

      Today, women are sexualized to an insane degree, and expanded to any number of inane body parts and not just breasts.

      I think OPs question could also be phrased as “why did sex become so taboo?” And we might get a broader picture.

  • @xePBMg9
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    9 months ago

    Since we are all going; here is my take. Breasts were always sexual in nature. For most species they signal fertility and what part of the cycle the individual is in at the moment. At some point human females evolved to have perpetually inflated breasts. There are a few different theories as to why that happened, but it is beside the point for this discussion. So considering they were evolved to attract or dissuade males, I say they certainly have a sexual function. In addition to this, breasts play a big part in sexual pleasure for the wearer.

    Now consider people pairing up in monogamous couples. The male suspects that other males might be motivated to pursue his mate by the visage of his mates nice boobies. He asks his mate to cover them up so he feels more safe in his position. Now hundreds of years pass, and what do you know, it is in grained in the cultures. It’s not really too bad for the women, so they have lived with it, for the sake of peace. Sometimes it is even convenient to be covered. For example in cold weather. I bet there is a correlation between climate and a cultures willingness to have boobs in the open.

    Tribes have not only hidden their populations breasts, they have been known to hide their women all together, so the neighbouring tribes don’t steal them. I feel that this is a bit similar. Put a gold bar in a glass display long enough, and someone will try to take it. Everything carries risk. If your society isn’t good at maintaining law, then it’s a bad idea to display the gold bar. In some places it might not be an issue at all. All women could go around topless as well, but the risk that they are approached by an aspiring male will probably be slightly increased.

    So why do it now, in my amazing, functioning, egalitarian and lawful country? It is down to history and people being comfortable with what we have always done.

    My humble opinion is that we abolish any law that prevent any boob owner from showing them anywhere. But I’m lazy, so I won’t start a revolution over it.

    • @hysterika
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      129 months ago

      I’m in physical pain reading this

      • @[email protected]
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        9 months ago

        Why? You’re disappointed with the explanation? Disagree with it? Or you don’t like its somewhat informal tone? I thought it was well written, enjoyed the information / humor, and can respect the explanation.

        • @hysterika
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          9 months ago

          Literally the only thing this comment manages to say is that its writer views women as objects, that women exist a status symbol for men, like bro he literally compares women to a gold bar in a glass box what the fuck do you mean hahahahaha. The most discouraging part out of all of this is that people here are agreeing with it.

          • @[email protected]
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            399 months ago

            He’s saying that HISTORICALLY women were viewed as such. That’s his guess at what logic prehistoric humans went through, not his own.

            • @hysterika
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              69 months ago

              Are we really out here ignoring the fact that mans said that breasts were evolved for men??? Like come on, don’t make excuses for this guy

              • AmidFuror
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                259 months ago

                Humans have evolved, and sexual selection is a big part of evolution in sexual species. Whether his hypothesis is correct or not, it’s not offensive to speculate how things got to where they are now.

                You also seem to be making the naturalism fallacy. Just because things are or were a certain way in nature doesn’t mean they ought to be that way in human society.

              • @xePBMg9
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                9 months ago

                Evolution doesn’t have a preconceived goal it goes for. There can be pressures of all different kinds. I did not intend to convey that sexual pressure was the sole factor on the evolution of breasts. Clearly they have other functions. I only make the observation that it is a sexual signal for males in the vast majority of mammals. I believe humans are the only mammal with breasts that doesn’t shrink when they are ready, as it were. But I am a proponent of the hypothesis that it was evolved as a trait of sexual secrecy, to confuse males, so the female can attract the favour of more males.

                It’s alright to disagree with the premise that there were sexual pressure on the evolution of breasts. You would probably be in the minority in the scientific community on that one though.

                For the record; I fancy myself an egalitarianist. I believe in women’s rights. I do not believe slavery is good for any kind of society. I really believe males and females are very similar. Small differences in our physiological makeup. That is all.

                • @hysterika
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                  49 months ago

                  Okay this is gonna be the last thing I say on this - a lot of the struggle that women today face comes from the idea that women only exist in relation to something or someone else, like children or a partner. Eg, your role is to start a family, wear makeup and take care of your appearance so that you are perceived as attractive and therefore valued. Making arguments that women have larger breasts as an evolutionary trait because of men wanting to procreate with them is an extension of that sentiment. Whether it’s true or not and to what degree - it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t fit into the conversation and it completely detracts from the point of women being hyper sexualized in today’s culture.

                  I support you if your say you’re egalitarian or feminist or what have you, but please consider the different perspectives and examine your arguments within the wider context. We are more than just our biology lmao.

              • @[email protected]
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                149 months ago

                Sexual selection pressure is massive in evolutionary systems. You’re forgetting that fitness is an indirect result of what is ultimately sexual selection pressure. A lot of people think it’s fitness first, sex second, but it’s actually the other way around, sexual selection plays a larger part, and is supposed to imply fitness, but doesn’t always. Without sex there is no reproduction, and therefore no mutations. Anyways, just remember, in evolutionary systems, they are not directly selecting for traits, they are selecting traits through the abstraction of sex and sexual selection. Sex is king here. IDK it’s weird but it is what it is.

                • @[email protected]
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                  38 months ago

                  Sexual selection is a theory thrown around but afaik the work hasn’t been done to show this is the sole cause. Enlarged breasts may have some reason to exist beyond sexual identification - there’s not a lot of mostly bald mammals that walk on two legs so theres not a lot of good opportunities to spot convergence in features.

              • @[email protected]
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                88 months ago

                Ah yes, I remember how the birds of paradise evolved such complicated dance routines and brilliant colours for the sole purpose of self expression. Or the brilliant peacock that evolved a huge unwieldy display just to feel good about themselves

          • @xePBMg9
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            189 months ago

            I’m sorry it came of that way. It was not my intention. The gold bar part is perhaps a bit unfortunate. I was trying to illustrate and emphasise to the reader that doing anything carries a risk and that people of different regions and cultures have made different choices to manage those perceived risks based on their circumstances.

            I believe people, more often than not, make choices out of practicality. Morals, religion, politics, fads, all come and go. “Hey, wife, those guys are staring, I know it’s not convenient, but can you cover up” has probably been said by males partners pretty consistently over the years.

            The word steal might have been a bad choice too, now that I think about it. Perhaps kidnap would have also worked.

            • @hysterika
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              59 months ago

              I think a really important part in this is that in a situation where other men are leering at someone’s wife, the better response is to address the behaviour of the men, and not to ask her to cover up, because effectively what this does is shift the responsibility of their bad behaviour onto her. I get what you’re saying that many cultures are patriarchal, but it’s really important to be critical of what we’re raised to believe, and unlearn as much as we can, rather than continuing the cycle.

              • @xePBMg9
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                9 months ago

                I agree. I think that is where we are heading. In societies with high quality of life and high standard of eduction, it is already an expectation. Unfortunately there are places today, that are still somewhat mediaeval.

                To clarify; the reason why males might have initially made these requests of their partners is, I reason, insecurity and perhaps fear. Imagine you live in a society where you can not expect protection from anyone except maybe your own family. You find yourself in that threatening situation. Your choices of what to do about it are limited. From the perspective of both the victim and her husband. If most peoples choice are the same, it might become a norm and part of the culture, eventually. You can imagine how the resulting behaviour would probably have been supported by both sexes. Because they feel safer. Because it’s practical and easy. With time it becomes pointless. But it’s culture. It’s tradition and somehow valued on that merit alone.

                If I were to find myself in that situation, today, I might have told my wife “let’s leave”. My choices in that moment are still limited. Of course I can report the incident to authorities and what not, after the fact. That sucks for me. It probably sucked even harder 12k years ago.

                I have never found myself in this situation, but I can imagine it. And I think my wife would cover up, not because she wants to, but because it makes her feel safe. That is not great. That is not an argument for bad behaviour. Thankfully we generally feel safe where we live.

              • @[email protected]
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                29 months ago

                I think any Lemmy users who would downvote you for this should take some time and look inward.

    • @[email protected]
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      118 months ago

      But this ignores all the cultures where women’s breasts are not considered sexually. I lived in Africa, and it was actually a big adjustment for me, even though the local people’s attitudes were changing due to Western media. 25 years of Canadian upbringing made it hard not to look when women or teenage girls took off their shirts. But that was my problem, not theirs.

      And not just Africa. In rural Japan japan, before WWII, women were often topless.

      • @xePBMg9
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        8 months ago

        I am not arguing that this happens everywhere, in the same way and is then set in stone forever. People in different places and times had different circumstances. Hence, they could have chosen to handled things differently. Cultural norms can also sometimes change over night. Look at the sexual revolution of the 60-70s for example.

        I was trying to answer the question where this norm comes from. Not why this norm isn’t universal.

        It seems obvious to me that a culture that have normalized breasts in everyday life, would also consider them less sexual in nature.

  • @[email protected]
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    279 months ago

    Where?

    There’s more than a few countries even in Western Europe where women can go topless in public.

    Depending on where you’re talking about, there’s lots of different answers including “they don’t”

  • @[email protected]
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    139 months ago

    Once all the boomers die, y’all can hang out topless wherever you want. Everybody else is cool with it.

  • theodewere
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    89 months ago

    men realized that women can cast spells with those thing, so we forced you to hide them

  • FunkyMonk
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    69 months ago

    AS A MAN I KNOW it’s when I got chubby and because I don’t like air on my nipples.

  • Lath
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    69 months ago

    I blame the uptight protestants who needed a severe moral code or something.

    Also, for a time period, in some tropical places bare breasts supposedly meant a prostitute was working.

    I think that in Korea, up to the early 20th century, women of age were topless to show they weren’t married. Covered up meant they were no longer free? Need a source on it for specifics if anyone cares to search.

    And it was in an African tribe i think that the opposite happened. Bare breasts meant a mother that was actively breastfeeding.

    It’s all foggy memories though, so accuracy is low.