On one hand, you have people who are mostly comfortable with letting Palestinians die. On the other, people who openly talk about nuking them.
You have a group of people who may be willing to throw minorities under the bus. And you have another group that is waiting for the opportunity to do so and make it law.
Both choices are terrible, I agree, but there is one that is a clear better over the other. It sucks, but you have to accept that it’s the way it is for now and you are not going to pull some third party out of your ass. That is going to have to wait for now. You have to make a decision between the lesser of two evils.
I’m counting on you, Americans. As a trans woman from a European country which political climate is heavily influenced by yours, I can quite confidently say that my rights are in your hands.
Quite frankly, I can’t think of a more terrifying thought, but it is what it is.
Don’t fuck this up. Please.
I know as Americans we consider ourselves the center of the universe but this is one of those things that warrant it.
With Trump’s last win we saw Argentina, Belarus, Brazil, Philippines, Australia, and Italy (just naming a few) in power crazy nut jobs. Attacking your community, immigrants, and the poor bc the US had someone spouting shit daily and being racist/anti immigrant was openly supported. It is like a virus, it spreads.
I hope we crush is attempt to be president again but you never know. We need the young people and millennials to vote. It’s hard though.
Stay safe and I hope we have a bright future to look forward too.
I know as Americans we consider ourselves the center of the universe but this is one of those things that warrant it.
With Trump’s last win we saw Argentina, Belarus, Brazil, Philippines, Australia, and Italy (just naming a few) in power crazy nut jobs.
If you argument is that US presidents set global trends than see exhibit a) Palestinians for the future of how the U.S. and other western countries will treat their citizens and how institutional power will utterly deny it the entire time.
If Biden does not stop this genocide now a new era of violence is being normalized and in conjunction with climate change destroying food security and access to clean water it is going to be very very dark.
If Biden does not budge on Palestine even though there is a strong and clear signal from the American people to do so than we have already lost and people upset at me for not not voting for Biden (if he continues to refuse to budge) are yelling into the void.
Those things you mention WILL GET WORSE under Trump.
Not voting Biden is a vote for Trump. Your protest WILL fuck things up.
Get off your high horse and vote Biden.
If Biden does not budge on Palestine even though there is a strong and clear signal from the American people to do so than we have already lost and people upset at me for not not voting for Biden (if he continues to refuse to budge) are yelling into the void.
I agree we have a lot of issues but we can fix them if we decide to. I could agree that the Vietnam war / civil rights period was worse. We pulled ourselves out of that but we failed to learn from it. People got complainant and money started to flow so everyone accepted it.
By not voting we will see something worse. The Republicans have said multiple times they want to wipe the Palestinians off the earth. They want Russia to succeed in Ukraine. Civil rights wiped away. The environment set on fire. That is a lot worse than now.
Putting our hands up and saying nothing can be done is a farce. By doing nothing we are complicit. Vite like people’s lives are on the line bc they are. Next election vote for a local candidate with more “extreme”(national healthcare , universal schooling, climate protection plans…etc) views. That is how you change stuff. You keep doing that until the top is like the bottom.
Next election vote for a local candidate with more “extreme”(national healthcare , universal schooling, climate protection plans…etc) views. That is how you change stuff.
Is that how the United States was created?
The United States was created because there was no democratic representation for the US colonies in Britain’s parliament, genius.
Is there democratic representation for the working class in an oligarchy like the United States?
“I failed my High School Civics class on purpose” energy in this question.
That was the original belief system. They just had a couple of massive flaws, slavery and genocide.
If Biden does not stop this genocide now a new era of violence is being normalized and in conjunction with climate change destroying food security and access to clean water it is going to be very very dark.
Are you worried about Biden winning? This is not even a question. Understand everything you wrote there is 1000x worse under trump. The things you’re talking about fixing can only happen under Biden.
Seriously, it’s no joke that it’s exactly the same message as russian propaganda to say ‘biden loves genocide, don’t vote’. If anyone thinks that’s actually the path to a better tomorrow they’re useful idiots.
new era of violence is being normalized
I dunno it seems pretty much the same as the old era of violence to me, where Israel was still occupying the region and still doing a genocide and a million Iraqis died in a meaningless war for oil rights to avoid gas prices climbing by 5 bucks
Nah. I voted for the lesser evil my whole life and the DNC decided they get to decide the president rather than the people.
Burn it all
That’s how I felt in 2016.
We can all see how well that worked out. Never again.
No, no, I’ve been assured that Trump was no worse than any other president, it’s all the same, you see. Both Sides!
that’s nice if you actually burn anything. if you just don’t vote then you’re just going to get stomped by fascists. either you actually commit to that level of action or you get rolled by those that do.
that’s just an empty welcome to the fascists of it’s not backed by meaningful planned action. the only way what you said will work is of you’re ready to fucking go the second trump wins. he’s not leaving otherwise. so either you’re in a militia or you’re pathetic and part of the problem.
amen. that’s why the left is so bad, politically, and the right is, well better. they whine but keep voting. the leftists just whine and do nothing and get mad that the guy they didn’t vote for didn’t win.
Literally every grievance they have can be answered with “well then why didn’t you vote in <X primary/off year election> where a candidate who would have answered that grievance if not built momentum towards one who would was running?”
If they spent a percent of the energy voting that they did whining about why they don’t want to, Bernie would have won the 2016 primary handily, along with a slate of progressive challengers at his back.
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If you want to burn it all, don’t be surprised if you end up burning down with it.
Burn it all
lmao
I guess it’s nice when you lot go mask off.
DNC decided they get to decide the president rather than the people
I’m sorry which side of that debate says we should have counted donations instead of the actual votes?
All but outright saying “only the bougie white kids should count at the polls!” and yet somehow the DNC are the ones who are the threats to democracy and subverting the will of the people because they checks notes counted the ballots cast for all the candidates in the race.
Just about figures that the “voting bad!” screechers think that voting in the primary is somehow putting the fix in.
So you’re gonna sulk. Cool
As a trans person in America, shut the fuck up 😀
Hey, if you’d rather have the Republicans open fascists in power, you do you. I question your survival instincts, but still. I just hope you’re just a tiny vocal minority, otherwise we might be all fucked. Or, if you’re not a vocal minority… well, I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.
We’ll see I guess.
Trans people are under attack with our current administration. No reason to fear a future that’s already happening.
I love it. It doesn’t matter that Biden has consistently supported trans rights with tangible action during his administration, trans people are still under attack, so it’s Literally All The Same. Like people who ask why there are still fires if there are firefighters.
The tangible actions he waited until his final year of the term to enact, that are instantly being challenged by states. That’s not consistent and it’s hardly tangible. You’re not going to tell me that my own struggles are worth ignoring a genocide.
So which is it? He hasn’t done anything or he waited too long in his term? How does any of this even compare to the other guy??? Sometimes I wonder if you guys are smoking shrooms because you make no sense
He waited too long to do barely anything. It’s okay if reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit.
The tangible actions he waited until his final year of the term to enact,
It’s funny. I’ve had this song and dance before. When I break out previous actions towards guaranteeing trans rights, it immediately shifts from “It was too late in his term” to “Well it wasn’t enough”.
I said both of those things! 😀 It was too late and also not enough! 😀
Biden can’t control right wing wackadoo legislation.
Assertion: You live in an entrenched two party system.
Scenario: Only concerning ourselves with voting, which party do you vote for?
I bring this up as a person in America who has beliefs that do not fit into either of the two parties. Some of my preferred policies are backed by one party, some are backed by the other, some are backed by neither.
I take action beyond voting like working to switch the voting system to approval voting, but I’m going to limit the discussion to voting because that’s the bare minimum everyone should do and your vote won’t be contextualized by the candidates, it will look identical to all the other votes.
Lmao a centrist? 😂😂😂
A reasonable guess, but no. My politics aren’t relevant, I’m asking you who you’re gonna vote for.
Your politics are relevant because if you think that Republicans/Democrats both have enticing policies, your values are so so far from mine that we don’t have the same political goals. So I won’t be engaging in conversation with you as if we did.
There are many political tools at your disposal. Voting is one of them. Not voting does not affect change. Unless your political views are “I don’t give a shit” voting is a positive use of your time even if you’re doing other things outside of voting.
So again I ask: who are you voting for?
I never said I wasn’t voting, but also I totally understand why many people do not. I already told you I don’t want to chat about this, because I think you and I aren’t aligned whatsoever and it’s useless to discuss political strategy. It’s weird that you keep demanding I answer a question … like I care?? About answering you?
Both choices are terrible, I agree, but there is one that is a clear better over the other.
One wants you to boil alive slowly and the other wants to dismember you with a chain saw.
We need to vote for the boiler and hope we can convince him not to turn up the heat again.
But also, if we’re in bright red or blue states voting has no impact on the end result. It’s just a way to wash our hands of the guilt of supporting the other guy.
As a trans woman from a European country which political climate is heavily influenced by yours, I can quite confidently say that my rights are in your hands.
That’s crazy, because I assumed you could also vote and that voting was the only real solution.
Are American votes now the only votes that matter?
and that voting was the only real solution.
lmao
Just because you believe that voting cannot be part of any solution doesn’t mean the rest of us just believe the exact opposite. What are you, in grade school?
you believe that voting cannot be part of any solution
It can only be a solution in a state with a functional democracy. Texas does not have that.
All I hear is complaints. Why not aim some of your misgivings towards a solution instead of screeching constantly?
All I hear is complaints
All I hear is “vote harder” and “leftists did this”, from a state where Biden is down 20 points.
Why not aim some of your misgivings towards a solution
Ask me that on the HISD picket line.
One wants you to boil alive slowly and the other wants to dismember you with a chain saw.
No.
One is consisting of unimaginative and incompetent people, and people that want to do things but cannot due to the another group.
The other group is consisting of outright vile people that get off of other people’s suffering, religious fanatics that need some “noble lies” about things like trans people otherwise “they’ll throw away eternal happiness of the afterlife for the temporary happiness of this life”, and “good willing conservatives” that are fooled by the meaning of the word and think “even if all this turns out to be real hatred, the next government can just unlegislate the law”.
We had 8 years of the former in Hungary. The latter convinced enough “good willing conservatives” to vote for them. We no longer can “unvote” them, for another government to “unlegislate” horrible laws, and no government will unsteal money stolen by Fidesz oligarchs, unexpel kids from high school because Fidesz lowered the education age, and undo the countless other harm caused by them.
I don’t think a “world wide worker’s revolution” is coming. If it’s coming, it’ll be in current China style, and I got enough of mediocre dictators wanting to form society to their liking. If it will be somehow good, it still can’t undo the harms of the current system. And if the rise of Nazism didn’t lead to the second coming of Rosa Luxemburg, I doubt the current rise of fascism will lead to anything like that, and leftist movements can be easily crushed by a police state in their cradles. Hell, all they need is widespread alcoholism and overwork, like in Hungary where they weaponize doomerism.
One is consisting of unimaginative and incompetent people
Sadly, the Pete Buttigiegs and Krysten Sinemas of the world are fiercely competent in their pursuit of climbing up the political ladder and cashing out at the public’s expense.
We had 8 years of the former in Hungary. The latter convinced enough “good willing conservatives” to vote for them. We no longer can “unvote” them
The former paved the way for the latter. Perestroika opened the gates to the neoliberal barbarians, and when they were done looting the country it was ripe for a fascist revival. Every “we have to vote for the lesser of two evils” concession accumulated a bit more evil. And what you’re left with is a mafia in place of a government precisely because compromise after compromise whittled away everything the country had going for it.
I don’t think a “world wide worker’s revolution” is coming.
I don’t think Biden wins this next election. Not for all the screaming and left-shaming and "but Trump is worse"ing on the internet. Biden’s 2020 coalition is hemorrhaging conservatives as fast as its hemorrhaging college leftists. He can’t win Arizona, Nevada, or Georgia a second time now that he’s pissed away domestic good will on hundreds of billions in foreign military aid.
And if the rise of Nazism didn’t lead to the second coming of Rosa Luxemburg
Rosa Luxemburg was killed in 1919, by the German State Police, as they sought to quell student protests. She was arrested by the Freikorps and tortured before their execution. This was the year before the formation of the NSDAP. The leaders of the Shanghai Commune of 1927 suffered a similar fate under Chiang Kai-shek eight years later. It was Luxemburg’s death, and the exile of Zhou Enlai, that heralded the ascension of the then-modern fascist movement.
This occurred under moderate governments. One might even call them Bidenesque. They cleared a path for the fascism that swept through China and Germany over the next decades under ostensibly liberal democratic rule.
What we’re seeing in Palestine and Ukraine and Argentina and India - and reflected in Columbia and UCLA and UT@A, via a militant police backed by far-right local militias - is a tide of fascism that won’t be stopped by a bunch of liberal enablers. Hundreds of Rosas are dying to Israel bombs. Hundreds more are being rounded up and brutalized by American police. They’ll keep appearing, because this amount of pain and fear is intolerable, and has to be resisted at all costs.
And if you think that resistance to fascism amounts to
mediocre dictators wanting to form society to their liking
then I gotta question what you’re going to do now that fascism is on your doorstep.
Rosa Luxemburg was killed in 1919, by the German State Police, as they sought to quell student protests.
Funny way of saying “Quelling an armed uprising that Rosa Luxemburg herself had voted against”, but honesty isn’t your strong suit, I know.
Funny way of saying
Joe Biden killed Rosa Luxemburg.
Here I thought it was Bernie Sanders.
No matter who wins this November, Palestinians are still going to suffer from this genocide, because neither side is going to stop Israel. It’s not going to be better or worse with Trump, because those people are still going to be dead, and the only difference is how long they have to suffer before they die. Arguing over which death is more humane is shockingly immoral of us.
As Americans, we don’t get to absolve ourselves from that guilt by voting for Biden. We’re directly responsible for allowing our nation to come to the point where this is our only choices. Israel may be dropping the bombs, but it’s America that’s killing them. We’re voting for the lesser evil, but evil is still evil, it’s all the same, and you and I, and every other American, are guilty as hell for it. We’re all mass murderers, and we’re all sleeping soundly at night.
Because we voted for the lesser evil.
it’s not going to be better or worse with Trump,
It’s not going to be better or worse with the guy who wants them to ‘finish the job’ and famously broke with even usual conservative orthodoxy to support Israeli genocide?
Whether it’s the guy who wants them to kill every Palestinian, or the guy who is gonna sit there and let them kill every Palestinian while wringing his hands and reaffirming the unconditional support for Israel, the Palestinians are still dead and murdered. The fact that you’re arguing that one side is better is absolutely fucking absurd.
Alright, what about the guy who is reducing US weapons aid to Israel vs. the guy who is in favor of INCREASING weapons aid to Israel?
Oh, what am I saying? Silly me, thinking policy has consequences.
And then…
Biden administration is moving ahead on new $1 billion arms sale to Israel, congressional aides say
https://apnews.com/article/us-israel-arms-gaza-ebe971ca8878ff430ce6458c04151585
Right? Is the “reducing US weapons aid to Israel” in the room with us right now??
Does that sound like a lot to you or something?
In what realm is 1 billion dollars not a lot of money? Also whether or not it’s “a lot” wasn’t even what the contention was about… OP said Biden was reducing weapons aid to Israel and the above comment proves that’s not true.
yeah and? so what?
should i vote for the greater evil?
if kill 20 people, i might as well kill 2000 right, what’s really the difference?
that’s… not how it works. your vote is not an endorsement. plenty of people will openly protest against support of Israel while voting for Biden. you can actually break it down to pragmatic logic instead of the entirely incorrect broad strokes that you have done.
also your take smells like bot farm propaganda.
Congratulations you’ve been re programmed by tiktok to think cheetoman is the same as sleepyjoe
Biden is actively sending more weapons to Israel right this moment. The difference between Trump and Biden is that Trump hasn’t gotten a chance to actively participate and support genocide yet, and Biden has not only done that, but continues to express unwavering support for that genocide. So you’re right, Biden and Trump aren’t the same. They might be, if Trump wins this November, but right now Biden is objectively worse.
the american votership is very emotional. they don’t think about the future. they vote how we feel right now.
hence why we are like this. biden will lose if the is a economic downturn, for example.
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I’m voting for the lesser of the two evils, which is Blue, in yet another fucked up election. Read your damn history, the US politicians, Blue and Red, always give Israel a blank check for weapons to continue the family blood feud over lots of dried up rocks. Do your civil duty and vote.
If everyone who says that gets more active at the local level, we have four years to make the choices different next time around.
People generally don’t like actually participating in democracy. And fuck, who can blame them? The essential feature of changing policy in a democratic polity is the hard, arduous, thankless fucking task of fighting an apathetic or actively hostile majority. You don’t get to be a hero. You don’t get recognition. You may not even see any change at all from your own, personal efforts, sometimes not even locally. Success is measured on the scale of decades. It’s fucking miserable. There’s no sudden wave of support to ride to victory, there’s no cheering crowds showing your opposition how utterly defeated and isolated they are, like you once were; there’s no moment of vindication. It’s nothing but struggle, toil, and tedium.
Yet, that is how societies change.
The essential feature of changing policy in a democratic polity is the hard, arduous, thankless fucking task of fighting an apathetic or actively hostile majority.
The TikTok ban flew through. The '08 bank bailouts passed practically overnight. War bills for rammed through in a matter of months. Weapons deals are routine and tax cuts happen under every presidency.
The corrupt legislation doesn’t need to walk this arduous road. And corporate lobbyists regularly tout their jetset cocaine and hooker lifestyle.
This is the real face of American democracy. Not an army of petitioners fighting bad weather and apathetic crowds to scrap out civil rights from a clumsy bureaucracy. It’s dudes in $10k suits wooing senators in wine caves and beach resorts. And those same senators denouncing their constituents as greedy, lazy, ignorant slobs when a protest over the latest turd of a legislative package comes through.
Sorry that the miserable task of democracy doesn’t appeal to you. Maybe you can find somewhere where you can just parrot the Party Line and be happy with the Great Leader? I hear the PRC is nice.
Imagine being this angry at a country with cutting edge mass transit, modern health care, and a retirement age of 54
Keeping licking those boots, I’m sure your social credit score will serve you well in the future. Cretins like you adore fascism, after all.
I mean, imagine simping for a state currently involved in a genocide, putting hundreds of thousands of Muslims in concentration camps and executing them at will. And imagining that you’re better than the Israeli simps?
My guy, you can’t walk through a college campus in the US without getting gang tackled by police.
imagine simping for a state currently involved in a genocide, putting hundreds of thousands of Muslims in concentration camps and executing them at will. And imagining that you’re better than the Israeli simps?
If you think that’s bad, wait until you hear about Native American reservations and the origins thereof.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States
Success is measured on the scale of decades. It’s fucking miserable. There’s no sudden wave of support to ride to victory, there’s no cheering crowds showing your opposition how utterly defeated and isolated they are, like you once were; there’s no moment of vindication. It’s nothing but struggle, toil, and tedium.
Yet, that is how societies change.
Interesting.
Is this how the United States was created?
I thought that the Fourth of July was celebrating some other type of event
The American Revolution was the result of some 40 years of agitating and politiking to change popular opinion, and ended with a ramshackle government where everyone hated one another and was entirely dysfunctional for half a decade, at which point a series of compromises no one was happy with and the only unambiguously popular figure in the nation came together to make the US Constitution, which everyone at the time hated. At which point we struggled for the next 20 years with lingering monarchist and loyalist sentiment, and then for the next 50 with anti-democratic and secessionist sentiment.
The change from a British colony to an independent country was (largely) not guns and fireworks. It was comprised of convincing people on the ground to take a different view than the one they grew up with; a slow, miserable, thankless process. And the part of it that was guns and fireworks was not nearly so glorious and momentous, nor spontaneous, as it is often pretended.
I did not suggest that there is anything glorious about violent revolution wherein untold numbers of human beings are murdered.
However, barring that violent revolution, the most powerful and wealthy country in the history of the world would not currently exist.
My point is that it is inaccurate to act like the slow progress of incrementalist democratic reforms is the only way for societal conditions to progress. If anything, those sorts of nonrevolutionary improvements, such as with Mandela in SA, are historical aberrations rather than norms.
The current global superpowers of the United States, China, and Russia were all formed by violent revolution. Secondary powers, such as Australia, Canada, Israel, etc, were formed through violent settler colonialism. And yet, despite this lack of democratic negotiation and mediation, these are the states that largely control the world.
Peaceful adherence to norms and consensus may have arguably established the Nordic model of social democracy and high living standards. However, in terms of global power politics, it seems to leave something to be desired. Violence has consistently led to a change in conditions, and oftentimes, an improvement in those conditions. If we disagree with that then we disagree with the essence of the United States itself - in which case, voting for neoliberal moderation with the Democrats seems to be missing the point entirely
If anything, those sorts of nonrevolutionary improvements, such as with Mandela in SA, are historical aberrations rather than norms.
Under that same logic, democratic governments are historical aberrations rather than norms. So why are you trying to apply a concept of how history ‘normally’ is to historical aberrations?
The current global superpowers of the United States, China, and Russia were all formed by violent revolution.
Formed by violent revolution against non-democratic polities.
Peaceful adherence to norms and consensus may have arguably established the Nordic model of social democracy and high living standards. However, in terms of global power politics, it seems to leave something to be desired.
Or maybe all the Nordic countries combined have less than a third of the population of the UK alone and didn’t even develop into democratic polities until the 20th century?
Nah, it’s gotta be because they didn’t found their prosperity on violence, not that stupid ‘material conditions’ stuff.
Violence has consistently led to a change in conditions, and oftentimes, an improvement in those conditions. If we disagree with that then we disagree with the essence of the United States itself - in which case, voting for neoliberal moderation with the Democrats seems to be missing the point entirely
“The US was founded on violence because of the lack of democracy, therefore, voting in a democratic system instead of using violence is missing the essence of America.”
Do you even listen to yourself
Ah yes, that act of violent revolution that inexorably sent the US down a path to manifest destiny and the civil war
Definitely a perfect model for a modern movement for significant political change!
The US has a representative democracy. We elect people by voting so that those people can represent our beliefs in the action of government without us being there to make sure our voice is heard and considered.
While I agree that everyone should be more involved in civics, especially at a local level, it’s not really efficient for a society to implement a vanilla democracy. There are lots of other jobs like generating food/removing waste, generating energy/removing pollution, constructing/maintaining housing, transporting people including democratic representatives to and fro based on their obligations and desires, entertaining people so they can offset the pain in their lives and continue on with the struggle that is life, defend citizens from others or ourselves, etc.
Having a group of people act out government on our behalf is a good thing because we can specialize in other things to allow them to do so.
This all being said, there has been a disconnect with our representatives and with reality in general, so there is a giant need to reconnect with civic life in the US at all ages and at all levels for that matter.
Yeah, but that requires doing more than just doom posting, and we can’t have that now can we? /s
So many of the things people bitch about could be lessened (not necessarily resolved, but ffs, perfect is the enemy of good) by getting involved locally and trying to make things better for themselves and their neighbors. Fuck, even working on 3rd party support locally while stemming the bleeding nationally until there’s real ground level support would be better, but I guess we gotta tilt at windmills nationally and ignore the local level to get shut done…
I hate the fucking puritanical autocorrect. You’re a computer! Your people didn’t travel on the mayflower! You can say shit!
always give Israel a blank check for weapons
This is not necessarily true right now. Biden has put conditions on arms use, he has been slow walking arms shipments and now has placed a pause on them, however Israel needs to be supported to avoid major wars breaking out in the Mideast. Unfortunately Biden cannot control Netanyahu any more than he can control the orange mobster - both are dangerously deranged.
however Israel needs to be supported to avoid major wars breaking out in the Mideast.
I don’t think this is true, except insofar as “Waving a stick at Iran every now and again” is concerned. And honestly, we do that bare minimum of discouraging aggression for a lot of countries, not all of whom we would consider allies or countries we support.
I think @rayyy is right, unfortunately. If the West severs ties with Israel overnight (and suddenly stopping arms shipments would essentially be the same thing as severing ties), it’ll just create a power vacuum where Russia or China will cosy up to Israel instead. Israel has a lot of influence in the region - partially because it’s been propped up by US support, of course - and other countries would absolutely try to prop up Israel and capitalise on their influence in the US’ place if they had the opportunity. Which would perhaps slow down the genocide for a little while, but it would inevitably pick back up, but this time without the US/West having any influence at all.
Not to mention the fact that the US losing its influence over Israel would almost certainly destabilise the region. Iran would be emboldened, as you alluded to. Hamas would be emboldened, and while I take the side of the Palestinian people in this whole ordeal, I don’t think Hamas being emboldened would be a good idea - it would likely lead to further conflict and even worse suffering for the Palestinian people. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey would all likely try to expand their influences, too.
Biden is trying to slowly reel Israel in while still maintaining US influence there. Partially because the US just wants to keep its power, of course, but also because it’s perhaps the best way to have some control over the genocide and over the region rather than just being an observer. I don’t like all the blood on our collective hands but I think that, at this point, the genocide would continue without us.
I absolutely think the fact that Israel has been put in the position it’s in represents decades of shortsightedness and foreign policy failure, though. Israel should never have been in the position to do this.
I don’t think this is true, except insofar as “Waving a stick at Iran every now and again” is concerned.
You’re almost in danger of deviating from neoliberal orthodoxy here.
It’s almost like I’m not a neoliberal.
If you say so.
Not voting because bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe, even after the goddamned 2016-21 dark ages, is the leftist version of anti-vaxx anti-mask. Too many people seem to be equally lazy plus self-centered equals stupid, in all directions.
Whether it’s about putting a piece of cloth on your face or voting, they’re special; above it all; they know what the truth is, and we’re the dumb ones for not seeing it, we’re the dumb ones for doing something, for choosing a path of effort/inconvenience/civic duty instead of inaction. And we are the mindless herd to them.
EDIT: Then you tell them that republican and russian troll farms are flooding their discussions, concern trolling about genocide while russia itself is invading Ukraine with genocidal intentions, with the explicit intent to get them to not vote because they are manipulable in bad faith, and do they seem to care?
Keep protesting from now to the future until we get shit done, but vote Biden regardless. We’re stuck with this choice cause this is the only least worst option we have, voting red is just shooting oneself in the foot. Wish Bernie was still an option.
Also fuck the electoral college.
Voting for someone who is less bad is harm reduction. You can do harm reduction, while loudly proclaiming that it fucking sucks there’s not a better option, and working to provide better options.
I hate Biden. But I hate (and fear) the prospect of a second trump term more.
I’m not American, but I am fascinated by the cognitive dissonance it takes for these People who claim to be progressive to chart a path that clearly puts Trump in office while claiming they’re fighting for the very people that Trump has already banned from being in America.
Trump would be bad for America and for the world, but a part of me wants to see y’all elect him again, just out of curiosity. The stupidity knows no bounds.
I’m the person in another country worried about how even the meager progress towards tackling climate change will be enthusiastically and vigorously reversed out of spite thoroughly double fucking the rest of us for good.
The lion’s share of progress isn’t happening in the West. It’s reforms happening in East Asia and new cleaner development happening in Latin America and Africa.
Western states are hobbled by legacy infrastructure they refuse to replace. What progress they have made has been driven by cheap imports. And they’re going to halt those imports to protect legacy industry
Can western states start stealing eastern IP and marketing it now?
If the tables have turned, it makes sense if genocide Joe is genociding those Palestinians, China finished with their uighur ‘issue’ and the poor destitute west only knows how to copy moves from the ‘big glorious leaders’ in the east 🤡
Can western states start stealing eastern IP and marketing it now?
You think we haven’t been, already?
it makes sense if genocide Joe is genociding those Palestinians, China finished with their uighur ‘issue’
What is the Rafa of Xinjiang?
Beijing sends in construction workers and factory managers and Mandarin teachers, and westerners call it genocide. Tell Aviv sends bombers to demolish hospitals and snipers to double tap relief workers, and we send cops to cave your face in when you object.
Go back and review the Hong Kong riots. Compare them to Columbia and UCLA.
If Tianamen happened in DC today, the news media would call the guy in front of the tank a Russian antisemite and the tank commander a pussy for failing to flatten him.
Beijing sends in construction workers and factory managers and Mandarin teachers, and westerners call it genocide.
What a tasty boot!
lmao, loving the downvotes for calling out literal genocide denial. Stay classy.
calling out literal genocide denial
The Americans invaded Afghanistan and kicked off a flood of refugees over the Chinese border. We dropped thousand pound bombs to flatten whole villages when we suspected a member of the Taliban was in residence. And we conducted this butchery for decades, killing 12-year-old boys while labeling them “Fighting Age Males”. Turning school children into prostitutes to satisfy the baser instincts of our occupying military and allied warlords. Crushing a son’s testicles to extort confessions from his father.
And we never thought to call it genocide.
When Beijing invests billions in the industrialization of its most rural provinces? That’s where we draw the line.
Who is licking boot again?
When Beijing invests billions in the industrialization of its most rural provinces? That’s where we draw the line.
lmao
Who is licking boot again?
You, as you keep demonstrating.
Are we selling weapons for China to genocide Uighurs with?
I don’t mean to be paranoid but sometimes I think about who benefits most from conflict and division on the American Left, and whether they have the resources to artificially sow mistrust of reliable news and advance an agenda that benefits Russian interests.
Some of the nutjobs on Lemmy are actively hoping for another four years of Donald. A collapsing America helps China gain territory.
Not sure how they are so dimwitted as to want openly racist fascists heading up such a large nuclear arsenal. But dimwitted as they are, a good portion of the bothsidesing is deliberate.
Best to block .ml and pretend they do not exist
100%. Would be nice if you could block all the users as well as all the posts from an instance.
Unfortunately they not only exist, they also vote.
Blocking them is good for personal mental health but does not in any way solve the problem. It just leaves them to fester inside their own echo chambers.
They’re going to fester in their own echo chambers with or without your involvement.
The times these users seem to operate in is suspicious
A collapsing America helps China gain territory.
This seems to be a recurring fear among pro-Biden Democrats.
No real regard for Palestine or pregnant women in Texas or Trans people anywhere, but this absolute terror over Chinese economic influence spreading across East Asia.
It feels like the Dem policy is just “We need Biden to fight more of the correct wars America needs to be in”.
And that’s what I’m afraid a second Biden term will bring.
We’ve seen one term of an insurrectionist filling 1/3 of SCOTUS with corrupt and unqualified shitheads. They are already taking away the rights of my neighbors and aiming for more. I know why I am against Donald and it has nothing to do with China.
I’m still struggling to figure out why so-called “leftists” on Lemmy want full authoritarian fascism. When they are telling me any amount of collateral damage is fine as long as large numbers of white Americans get murdered, and their comment history is full of wanking over socialism with Chinese characteristics, that’s the conclusion I am going to draw.
I’m still struggling to figure out why so-called “leftists” on Lemmy want full authoritarian fascism.
Because they crave fascism, but they’re too cowardly to admit it out loud.
Don’t worry, I’m sure your favorite totalitarian state will be more than happy to let you lick their blood-stained boots. :)
Call Texas totalitarian all you want. I’m just going to keep fighting to make it better.
Whoever it is is probably paying a lot of these people who “care deeply about Palestinians”
Protest voters downvoting this: YoU cAn’T bLaMe Me FoR tRuMp!
Fucking morons, the lot of them.
Well you choose to blame the people instead of blaming Biden who can end all of this today and end up winning in a landslide.
The fact that Biden chooses to risk a Trump administration over ending a genocide should be very concerning to the average voter, but Americans of course rather blame the people than their elites. Same shit like with anti Union stances.
Well you choose to blame the people instead of blaming Biden who can end all of this today and end up winning in a landslide.
I don’t know how this delusion became so widespread, but the idea that withdrawing support from Israel is a consensus position even just within the Democratic Party is so utterly divorced from reality that it baffles me.
Twelve downvotes inside of two minutes? Lmao.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
And that is in the current media landscape, where the Dems were still defending Israel and downplaying their actions. If they went out to go full documentation, full coverage about war crimes, full rhetoric about who Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, Likud and the other fascists really are…
And we now see the worst yet to come with the invasion of Rafah. The only way Biden and the Dems can salvage this, is if they go 180° now. Otherwise they will just keep losing face to their base, as more and more atrocities become public.
God, I’ve already been over this - opposition to Israel’s current operation is not the same as support for removing aid
You can say that’s fucking stupid, and it is - but it doesn’t change facts.
So 37% thinking he is in the right balance or too favourable to Palestinians. Leaving 62% who are either convinced that Israel is getting too much favours from the US, or who don’t know, which means they are susceptible to changing their position once they get the actual picture of what is going on. Because there is no way that people will switch to become more favourable of Israel now, as the Bodies pile up even higher.
And think of the potential outcomes: If Biden continues to support Israel he risks them going completely out of their way with genocide and by November he has to justify US taxpayer money having killed hundreds of thousands of people, of which there were many American citizens in particular aid workers.
If Biden stops supporting Israel and only provide replenishment for Iron Dome and Missile intercepting systems, Israel would have to retreat and start facing justice at the ICC. But there is no existential threat to them.
which means they are susceptible to changing their position once they get the actual picture of what is going on.
I think you overestimate the US electorate’s interest in foreign affairs. Or the US electorate’s interest in politics in general. Some would flip, probably. But I doubt it would be as quick or as total as many here seem to think. It certainly wouldn’t deliver the election to Biden in a landslide.
Because there is no way that people will switch to become more favourable of Israel now, as the Bodies pile up even higher.
Let me relay to you a story, that I hope will shed some light on my position in opposition to that assertion. I have a friend, very liberal, as all my close friends are. His dad is, likewise, very liberal. On every major policy issue I’ve discussed with him, he’s been decidedly left-leaning. Public assistance, taxation, infrastructure, education, foreign affairs.
Now, this was waaaay before the Russo-Ukraine War, so Russia was still just some weird far-off place with some ex-KGB guy at the head. No one was thinking anything more of it, but the issue of Russia and recent history and trivia came up, and I started talking about the Moscow Theatre Crisis (or maybe it was the Beslan Siege? either way), making some dark jokes about, you know, 40 terrorists, 100 hostages, 140 bodybags, mission accomplished, in a smarmy kind of way. We got to discussing it seriously, and he up and says that killing the hostages to get at the hostage-takers showed a ‘strong leader’.
He was a well-educated guy. Went to college, had a technical job in his field. Reasonably sensitive, fairly liberal, pro-feminist, proud of his very independent daughter, anti-imperialist (when Iraq and Afghanistan were still on everyone’s minds), pro-LGBT, very friendly and welcoming, a nerd with nerdy hobbies.
And he still said that showed a ‘strong leader’.
Now, the purpose of this isn’t to demonstrate some essential failing in my friend’s dad - he’s a very normal individual. But that’s just the thing - many of us in modern society (and certainly much worse in past societies) are socialized to glamorize the most gruesome displays of power, even those of us who would otherwise fall on the more liberal side of things. Those who do not spend significant amounts of time pondering the philosophical implications of politics (ie the vast majority of the active electorate, much less the general population) easily fall into this trap, because it’s so ingrained in our society.
If and when the general American population finds out more, many will turn against Israel - but a significant minority will take their brutality as a sign of strength. For the same reason that many in Israel who know the full story also take the brutality as a sign of strength.
If Biden stops supporting Israel and only provide replenishment for Iron Dome and Missile intercepting systems, Israel would have to retreat and start facing justice at the ICC. But there is no existential threat to them.
I’m in total support of that. Hell, I’m in support of removing aid for the Iron Dome and like systems. But I’m also well-aware that even if Biden changes nothing from this moment onward, it’s not worth intensifying the Palestinian genocide and starting a few new ones at home just to show the DNC what for.
Just because I’m blaming protest voters doesn’t mean I’m not blaming Biden. His hands are in no way clean here and his handling of the situation in the Middle East has been horrendous.
All that being said though, I choose realism over idealism. We have a FPTP electoral system in the US. This inevitably results in a binary choice. Come Election Day, every voter is either choosing to enable Biden’s neoliberalism or Trump’s fascism. It is that simple.
I’m making the choice to knowingly be a neoliberal enabler even if I would prefer something else. The reason being is that any other choice makes me a fascist enabler, same for 100% of protest voters whether or not they choose to bury their heads in the sand about it. As such, I’m entitled to think that they are in fact fucking morons, and plenty of people agree with me.
The fact that Biden chooses to risk a Trump administration over ending a genocide should be very concerning to the average voter, but Americans of course rather blame the people than their elites. Same shit like with anti Union stances.
that’s why i expect unions drives to mostly fail; we’re all susceptible to propaganda and the people refusing to accept it are making it worse.
Yet in many countries Unions are a well established and crucial part of society. Also in the US they used to be more powerful.
And why do they put out so much propaganda against Unions, Environmental protection, etc.? Because they are scared. They know the power people have, if they unite and demand change. We didn’t get womens voting and non segregated civil rights from people just voting and being pessimistic. Those were longer struggles, but they worked in the end by not relenting and gaining momentum, until their voices were heard.
No no, if only we were a little nicer to them, THEN they would be our shining heroes who rode in to save us!
Fuck you. I’ll vote for whomst I want.
Fuck you back, fascist enabler.
Says the person voting for a genocide enabler. How does that make ANY sense?
I admit I’m enabling the lesser of two evils, you deny enabling the greater of them.
Not voting for either of them is not doing a positive for one of them.
Pick up a civics textbook and figure out why you’re wrong, I’m not going to educate your ignorant ass.
Never asked you to. kthxbai
Really feels like Israel is trying to do the old Russian misinformation game even on Lemmy these days to try and suppress blue votes on a single wedge issue because they know it’s the only way to get Trump elected and get more guns and bombs than they’re already getting, and they wouldn’t get pushback at all for Rafah or any warnings of any sort, just a blank check for wanton genocide.
Like I don’t like what’s happening in Palestine, but I don’t want to make it worse by pretending a non vote would somehow help them. Helping them would be ensuring that the party least likely to enable Israel the most is elected. That’s Joe Biden. Some people have ridiculous nicknames for him but my god wait until they make this look like restraint if Trump gets elected. Palestine would cease to exist almost immediately and Israel will de facto annex it, like Russia is trying to do in Ukraine.
So really you can vote to minimize the pain and suffering of Palestinians or you can not vote to minimize the pain and suffering of Palestinians. Personally I’m gonna vote to minimize the pain and suffering of Palestinians, and also support the environment (again not to the degree I desire), and support abortion access, and trans rights, and taxes for the wealthiest Americans, and, the list goes on, but yeah, I’m gonna vote for Joe Biden.
I just love the white self proclaimed leftists who insist that they’re the only ones in all of America who truly take the threat of fascism as seriously as needed and yet their advocated course ot action is to let the fascists get everything they want but blame it on the people actually trying to stop them for not catering enough to white self proclaimed leftist interests.
They’ll still be singing the tune of how one day the DNC establishment will totally learn their lesson this time if we protest vote at the election the Christnats are holding as a sham, singing it all the way as they get frog marched to the gas chambers ahead of everyone they let the fascists kill first.
Yeah but the world will know about their adorable little “protest vote” and how Biden just didn’t “do it” for them.
That will be our nation’s epitaph.
Bibi wants Biden to lose so he can show the world what actual genocide looks like.
Not to sound like a Twitter wokescold or whatever, but Shaun does this all the time. A cishet white guy from England who won’t be affected in any way by the outcome of the U.S. election, yet constantly tweets and retweets about how the Democrats and Republicans are totally equally bad and voting makes no difference.
But when we look at what Republicans are doing and saying like…
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Trump saying he’ll be a “dictator for one day”
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His lawyers arguing that a president killing an opponent should be considered an official act protected by law
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The potential Republican vice-candidate bragging about shooting a puppy and other farm animals
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Reports that DeSantis enjoyed torturing people at Guantanamo
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Multiple Republican politicians and pundits calling for the eradication of trans people
I think this take doesn’t hold up. It’s no coincidence that many of the people with this mentality are also the ones who’ll be minimally affected by a Republican presidency, if at all.
Who is Shaun
Skull boy
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I agree with everything here except giving air to an annoying ass term like “wokescold”. That’s just something invented to try and reverse (completely justified usually) shaming
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