IDF: Whoops, tee hee.
Well they’re still blowing up kids with these things so idk if it’s the most brilliant targeting technique
Compared to dumping white phosphorus over hospitals and refugee camps, killing 2 (?) children during an attack that targeted hundreds/thousands is many orders of magnitude more precise. I hate dead innocents as much as anyone, but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
The point of the post isn’t to praise the pagers attack. It’s to point out that Isreal is capable of causing less collateral damage in Gaza but chooses not to.
You do realise targets in Gaza and targets in Lebanon are not the same? On one hand you have fighters shielding themselves behind civilians and dont even know what a pager is and why they would use it, on the other hand you have political and operative leaders on these fighters that need these pagers to stay low profile and untaped…
On one hand you have fighters shielding themselves behind civilians
You’re right, this is disgusting…
And this is too. Do these people have no morals? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/23/human-shielding-in-action-israeli-forces-strap-palestinian-man-to-jeep
The practice is said to be so routine that Israeli soldiers have a name for the human shields, who are referred to as shawish – informal slang for a low-ranking soldier – and the process was described by several witnesses.
Palestinian civilians, mostly young men, are picked up by Israeli soldiers, dressed in Israeli army uniforms, then sent into tunnels and damaged houses ahead of Israeli forces, soldiers told Haaretz and Breaking the Silence.
Their hands are tied together and a camera is attached to their bodies as they go in.
Holy fuck that’s disgusting
And Guess who put these booby traps?
Please give us a rundown of when human shields are okay and not okay. Let me guess, it depends who is using them, but in a roundabout way?
It’s pretty effective when your attacker doesn’t want to harm innocents at any cost, at least. But most organizations going to war don’t care enough.
Bruh… Hamas put these traps in the middle of their “citizens”, do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
It’s amusing/depressing you went for the latter part of my post.
Ah so using human shields is OK all of a sudden? What about the second example? Don’t worry, I can find more if you like
Bruh… Hamas put these traps in the middle of their “citizens”, do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
I’m confused why you were so outraged by the use of human shields at first and now when I send examples you all of a sudden don’t seem to care. You didn’t even mention the second example yet.
Hamas so any tactic of waffen IDF is valid?
Bruh… Hamas put these traps in the middle of their “citizens”, do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
bruh… that’s a limp dick excuse for a genocide lol
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That’s not really true unless you believe IDF propaganda
Security
Israel does justify the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice. See: The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948, the Transfer Committee, and the JNF which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate, before the mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948: Plan Dalet, Declassified Massacres of 1948, and Details of Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948) . Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967: Haaretz, Forward; while the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements (Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ). The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
- Avi Shlaim
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
State violence – official and otherwise – is part and parcel of Israel’s apartheid regime, which aims to create a Jewish-only space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The regime treats land as a resource designed to serve the Jewish public, and accordingly uses it almost exclusively to develop and expand existing Jewish residential communities and to build new ones. At the same time, the regime fragments Palestinian space, dispossesses Palestinians of their land and relegates them to living in small, over-populated enclaves.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Civilian Deaths and Human Shields:
Israel does deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so: ‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza, Lavender, and Where’s Daddy. When it comes to Israeli Soldiers and Civilians, there is also the use of the Hannibal Directive, which was also used on Oct 7th.
Hundreds of Genocide Scholars have described this ethnic cleansing campaign as genocide because of the deliberate targeting of children/civilians and expressed intent by Israeli officials: “A Textbook Case of Genocide”: Israeli Holocaust Scholar Raz Segal Decries Israel’s Assault on Gaza, 800+ Legal Scholars Say Israel May Be Perpetrating ‘Crime of Genocide’ in Gaza , Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated.
On the subject of Human Shields, there are some independent reports for past conflicts of Hamas jeopardizing the safety of civilians via Rocket fire in dense urban areas, two instances during Oct 7th, but no independent verification since then so far. None of which absolve Israel of the crime of targeting civilians under international law:
Intentionally utilizing the presence of civilians or other protected persons to render certain areas immune from military attack is prohibited under international law. Amnesty International was not able to establish whether or not the fighters’ presence in the camps was intended to shield themselves from military attacks. However, under international humanitarian law, even if one party uses “human shields”, or is otherwise unlawfully endangering civilians, this does not absolve the opposing party from complying with its obligations to distinguish between military objectives and civilians or civilian objects, to refrain from carrying out indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks, and to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians and civilian objects.
Additionally, there is extensive independent verification of Israel using Palestinians as Human Shields: IDF uses Human Shields, including Children (2013 Report), and in the latest war Israel “Systematically” Uses Gaza Children as Human Shields, Rights Group Finds
What does any of this relate to pagers strike?
Also, your sources… Lol…
Not all of Hezbollah are combatants, things are not that simple. Not all of Hezbollah are militants, there are many social workers and politicians. And even if they were, there are zero guarantees that all the pagers ended up in the hands of Hezbollah members. And even if that was the case, detonating them in public spaces is still a violation of international humanitarian law. By it’s nature this was a massive terrorism attack
Quote
Hezbollah organizes an extensive social development program and runs hospitals, news services, educational facilities, and encouragement of Nikah mut‘ah. Some of its established institutions are: Emdad committee for Islamic Charity, Hezbollah Central Press Office, Al Jarha Association, and Jihad Al Binaa Developmental Association. Jihad Al Binna’s Reconstruction Campaign is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon. Hezbollah has set up a Martyr’s Institute (Al-Shahid Social Association), which guarantees to provide living and education expenses for the families of fighters who die in battle.
Hezbollah holds 14 of the 128 seats in the Parliament of Lebanon and is a member of the Resistance and Development Bloc. According to Daniel L. Byman, it is “the most powerful single political movement in Lebanon.” Hezbollah, along with the Amal Movement, represents most of Lebanese Shi’a.
Lol its like saying all nazis were not bad guys 🤡
No, it’s not. If you want to make a Nazi comparison, it would be a comparison with Israel. But that doesn’t justify the targeting of Israeli civilians anymore than the justification of targeting Nazi Germany civilians like the Dresden bombings, which was a war crime and not justified.
Einstein along with many others compared the fascist actions of Zionism to Nazi Germany back in 1948, in wake of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai, an Israeli, has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
Fucking weird comment.
but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
Yeah. No I don’t.
but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
Do you admit that mass gas chambers are an effective way to kill people ?
So much nuance, wow
Yes. A very large part of what made the holocaust so terrible was that it was very effective at killing people.
If my goal was to kill exclusively enemy combatants and leave all civilians alone, it would be pretty effective to round them up and gas them, yes. I’d rather do that than indiscriminate fire.
Combatants tend to violently fight back, when you try to round them up. They also tend to hide among civilians in case of terrorist militia like Hezbollah.
…are you implying that mass gas chambers aren’t an effective way to kill people?
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It’s to point out that Isreal is capable of causing less collateral damage in Gaza but chooses not to.
That comes down to how often Hamas orders things that can reasonably have small bombs put inside them on a large scale and that Hamas are expected to have on their person’s most of the time, how secure their supply lines are, how paranoid they are about looking for that kind of thing, that sort of thing. It involves a lot more moving parts and rare opportunities than just dropping some bombs.
you do not, under any circumstances, “gotta hand it to them”
It’s an Obama type technique. Sure, you might blow up a few innocents, but the rate of eliminated enemies vs killed innocents is better than in traditional warfare, so a numbers guy would always go for that one.
Leaked official documents show that that wasn’t really the case as the public was led to believe
Quotes
The White House and Pentagon boast that the targeted killing program is precise and that civilian deaths are minimal. However, documents detailing a special operations campaign in northeastern Afghanistan, Operation Haymaker, show that between January 2012 and February 2013, U.S. special operations airstrikes killed more than 200 people. Of those, only 35 were the intended targets. During one five-month period of the operation, according to the documents, nearly 90 percent of the people killed in airstrikes were not the intended targets. In Yemen and Somalia, where the U.S. has far more limited intelligence capabilities to confirm the people killed are the intended targets, the equivalent ratios may well be much worse.
The documents show that the military designated people it killed in targeted strikes as EKIA — “enemy killed in action” — even if they were not the intended targets of the strike. Unless evidence posthumously emerged to prove the males killed were not terrorists or “unlawful enemy combatants,” EKIA remained their designation, according to the source. That process, he said, “is insane. But we’ve made ourselves comfortable with that. The intelligence community, JSOC, the CIA, and everybody that helps support and prop up these programs, they’re comfortable with that idea.”
The source described official U.S. government statements minimizing the number of civilian casualties inflicted by drone strikes as “exaggerating at best, if not outright lies.”
Its accepting Israeli propaganda to say that this was a precision strike. This is like using cluster munitions.
Whenever Israel comes up with an idea for an assassination they do it because they can. Its a force of habit for them.
When your goal is genocide, a kill is a kill
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Hezbollah was using commercial grade pagers because they’re a militia. The purpose of pagers are to contact them when their off duty. Many of these pagers blew up in homes, grocery stores, and other public places. Many civilians were killed and most people injured were bystanders.
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from what i can recall, and from the stats i’ve seen,
From what you can recall? I’m sorry, but I watched some of those videos, and I will not forget them. I cannot imagine what it must have been like to just be shopping in a supermarket when the person next to you has their legs suddenly blown off 3 feet from you.
It’s terrorism, plain and simple.
only 12 civilians
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
When your enemy disperses themselves among the civilian population?
This killed way less civilians than a traditional bombing that would have got the same Hezbollah fighters would have.
It’s funny how Israel made it a “normal” thing, to use firearms and explosives around civilians for the purpose of getting rid of, what they call, bad guys.
Imagine mass-shooting in a public school where a kid tries to hunt down other kids who bullied him for the past few years. Oh wait…
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When your enemy disperses themselves among the civilian population?
Obviously, bomb the grocery stores and the shopping malls, then blame the people you were targeting for the collateral murder.
FFS, I’m old enough to remember when Obama drone striking a teenage boy was considered at least mildly controversial for liberals. Now cluster bombing a flea market is the new gold standard for Ethical Warfare.
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this is relatively recent, and i barely care about the IP conflict at large, let alone some millitia in fucking lebanon. All i know is that pagers fucking exploded lmao.
why are you deciding to weigh in on a topic that you’re not invested in and don’t even claim to know anything about?
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You really should look up the definition of terrorism some time. If Hamas were the primary target, it’s not.
This says 37 dead, of whom Hezbollah have stated 31 were their fighters.
Hezbollah is a political party with 18 parliamentary seats and thousands of public service workers on their payroll.
Saying these were “fighters” is akin to bombing an UNRWA center and claiming you killed 31 Hamas Terrorists.
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so then why did they have pagers?
To receive messages through an underdeveloped telecommunications infrastructure.
i feel like if this were public service, this would be in confidence
Well, if you feel that way, I guess the mass murder was fine.
It’s underdeveloped because a terrorist organization fought a war to control the telecommunications system so they could leverage it more effectively for more terrorism.
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That’s a pretty clean ratio actually, considering the nature of Hesbollah.
Yeah. Two civilians dead for every one militant is fairly typical for asymmetric warfare.
Where are you getting those numbers?
Vague memory, but on looking it up, it’s even worse
I’m sure that’s true in general, but given the pagers and radios were being either held or worn by the target, I’d say this attack would have been much better.
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Right now the plan is to start assassinating everyone that got maimed for being related to zbowla
these are military pagers
They were a shipment for general consumption that went to a dealer near the Iranian embassy.
The target was the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, and virtually everyone else was just collateral damage.
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targeting one specific guy through the most broad means possible seems, weird.
Not that weird, in the history of espionage. As another example, the CIA used a vaccine drive in Pakistan to target Osama bin Laden’s hideout.
Regardless, i doubt they solely intended to target that one guy.
When your government believes neighboring ethnicities are “bug people” who need to be exterminated, collateral damage is viewed as a perk.
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Last I saw was 37 dead to over 3000 injuries
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No, it’s not. This was a very tactical way of striking an enemy that hides behind women and children.
This was a very tactical
Flinging a hand grenade into a crowd several thousand times over
But it’s okay because the crowd was full of Arabs aka Terrorists
There’s a big difference between dropping bombs and small pagers exploding. I watched a lot of those videos, and almost no one except the targets were injured.
It’s really sad that anyone else got injured at all, but damn, I’m glad they were able to be so destructive without injuring the thousands upon thousands that have been dying up until now. Or are you just upset that you can’t claim genocide for this attack?
There’s a big difference between dropping bombs and small pagers exploding.
Israel is doing both across Southern Lebanon. The pager attack was just the first salvo.
So would Netanyahu also be considered as hiding behind women and children? He’s out in public, traveling and lives in Tel Aviv.
1000 civilians had pagers sold to Hezbollah? Odd.
Can you confidently say you know the exact chain of custody of your cell phone?
Some killer gets a pager he doesn’t need, sells it to someone to make some cash, who gives it to their kid. Annnnd boom.
I buy mine offline so I’ll can for sure say, I’ve no fucking idea
No. Can you? How does OP know this about 1000 civilians? Don’t get me wrong. Fuck the Israeli government and it’s indiscriminate murder, but also fuck the lies. Speak truth.
Since you’re changing topics from “how could kids get pagers meant for someone else”…
In war, everyone lies. But one thing I’ve found as an American is that, if you’re killing in another country, you’re probably the worse of the two.
These weren’t devices connected to any network, these were connected to a network run by Hesbollah. There was no reason for a civilian to have one of these pagers.
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It took them years to prepare that operation. It was against Hezbollah, not Hamas, because they saw them as the bigger threat.
The war in Gazah is barbaric, but the sensible immediate alternative would have been a very targeted operation to find and rescue the hostages, not something like this.
The idf keep killing their hostages in what seem like very purposeful attempts to do so.
You don’t make an omelet without cracking a fews eggs
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less genocide is not an option at this time…
Please tell me this is a joke.
Some Israelis have to die to save other israelis but that’s just the side show.
The real event is the genocide against the Palestinian peoples
And it required Hezbollah to have no concept of logistic security. Maybe Hamas is not as amateurish as Hezbollah in that regard.
Historically Hamas has been the amateurs and Hezbollah the pros. Hezbollah has actual victories against the IDF. Hamas’ military success last October was completely unprecedented. Its generally believed that Hezbollah trained Hamas into the fighting force it is now. And since Iran trained Hezbollah you get people claiming Hamas is an Iranian puppet.
There is no accident.
Who’s confused? They wanted to do a genocide so now they’re doing a genocide.
It’s more like, they keep doing the genocide.
Mossad: “Making 40,000 pagers full of C4 and then convincing everyone in Gaza that they’re hip in 2024 is not profitable! What are we, Apple?”
Also Mossad: “But what about Lebanon?”
30 points - 1 day ago.
What happened to this site? Do people think this shit is funny?
But how would they arbitrarily punish everyone without carpet bombing? It’s not like everyone has a pager.
If you pull the thread enough there won’t be any sweatshirt left. Chill bro.
Watch me unravel, I’ll soon be naked
Is lemmy having trouble telling the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah now?
No? This is implying that Israel has had the technology to precisely target people for months but chooses to destroy a whole region instead went it came to Palestine.
Your comment implies they had a method like this one to attack Hamas. Source?
I mean they have the method and the will to use it, that’s all I’m saying. Why couldn’t they intercept the phones and other devices used by Hamas leaders the same way?
I mean they have the method and the will to use it, that’s all I’m saying.
The method may not have been applicable for some reason. Shooting people in the head is a method but unless they line up for you away from everyone who’s not Hamas, that’s not a realistic method to employ.
Agreed! It’s SAFER to just Bomb Orphanages and Schools to ENSURE those Hamas Kids die instead of using your Military Knowledge you Obviously have to find a Way to target ONLY Hamas!
for some reason
Oh ok, super convincing argument. I refer to my previous response regarding the amount of control Israel exerts on Gaza. The suggestion that they could not do something similar there is absurd.
Oops, you missed this part (I’m sure it was an accident)
may not have been applicable for some reason
The comments I’m replying to are absolutely sure what Israel could have done. Mine make it clear I don’t know what Israel knows.
The burden of proof is on those who seem to think they just need whatever information is on the public internet to know what would or wouldn’t work against various targets.
Consider dialing back the confidence seeing as no one here knows shit about what intel any groups involved has.
That’s not what they said.
What technology are they referring to then?
So they can do it to a sovereign nation, but they cannot do it to the completely oppressed population living in territories that they have complete control over, including every person and item that enters and exits? OK.
Do you just not know what the reality in Gaza is like? Do you not understand the level of control that Israel has exerted on those people for the past 8+ decades?
There is a reason that nobody can get humanitarian aide to them.
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You don’t need to speculate or theorize; they say exactly how they did it. I cut to the exact part of the video where it is succinctly explained.
You’ll also notice that, according to Ben/according to Israel/according to Hezbollah… they advertised that they were going to stop using phones & switch to pagers. In July. So people going on about “they could have done this all along” are wrong. It’s been since sometime in July. This July. Which makes this a very fast & even more effective military operation.
Yes, the shell company was set up 1.5 years ago. Date of sale, idk. But common sense: you need to sell your enemy the goods…and you need to know with relative certainty that the hardware is actively in use. So: since July.
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The cost? You mean these bombs are more expensive that the weapons used to level Gaza? The ones they only get because other countries sell them?
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We know people in Palestine have still have access to phones and Internet. I’m sure if Israel wanted, they could sneak new phones in the region. They literally control the whole of Palestine.
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Why would it only work once? It literally just worked twice in Lebanon. Lebanon is a sovereign nation that is not completely under the oppressive rule of a colonial occupier like Gaza is.
Israel controls everything and everyone that enters and exits Gaza. If they can do it in Lebanon, they can do it in Gaza.
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I forgot every method works the same against every target.
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Terrorism is bad and we should condemn it. Unless it’s done by the United States in which case we should call it “anti -communism or defending democracy”. Or if it’s done by Israel we can call it “self-defense”.
Whatever Israel is doing can just be added to the United States. In the end, Israel is just the guard dog “defending democracy” in the Middle East. A somewhat rabid guard dog, but still owned and fed by the US.
“we have infiltrate the supply chain of communication devices order by Hizbollah what should we do”
- “put GPS tracker so we know where they are”
- “we can listen to all their plans and communication”
- “put a bomb inside …”
I am fully against this booby trapping war crime regime but the problem with your first options is that pagers don’t transmit like phones do. That means there would be no way to remotely aquire the GPS or other saved data undetected.
If you can plant an explosive in there you can plant a transmitter
My point was that a transmitter would be easily detectable.
But an explosive charge wouldn’t? Don’t we literally have dogs that can smell explosives?
Read the Wikipedia page for PETN, it’s very hard to detect, including by sniffer dogs, because it’s so stable.
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Message is unencrypted when it hits the beeper?
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Its baffling for sure, would be nice to know what was gained from the attacks.
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Generally yes, I think for this model of pager, that is the case. I think pagers operate on some oldass unencrypted 80’s era protocol where a station just transmits the message freely on all waves until the pager comes into range and accepts it. You could’ve probably triggered this bombing with a big enough antenna inside of israel broadcasting the message. You can read as much on the wikipedia page.
Hamas != Hisbollah
But I start to wonder if they Knew about the planed attacks and let them happen to start this massacre.
It feels like the all seeing eye of Mossad was ignored on purpose. I hope Netanjahus Name will be branded for ever. He deserves no good mention in History of humanity.
On the other side… humanity faces the biggest historic event ever and no one cares (climate change)
Hamas != Hisbollah
And they also don’t use pagers, or cell phones, or…?
I think you imply the wrong thing here. of course they probably do, but what is the core of your statement?
Mine was:
Netanjahu (Not all of Israel and definitely not all Jews) wants this genocide. He needs it for his own survival, to a point where he gladly accepted the rape-murder of Festival crowd… not any festival, a Hippie-Goa-Festival full of people who would never vote conservative, so a scapegoat the conservatives gladly gave.
Conservatives globally are such a vomit inducing Subgenre of human scum. Hamas and Hisbollah ARE conservatives too… the liberal-green-peace-people have no representation in this world filled with hatred. Quite the opposite, they are vilified and killed.
Ah I see now, I misread what you were trying to communicate.
Sry. I try me best. =∆
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Just wait the carpet bombing will arrive sooner or later.
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I mean, not every individual has a pager on them necessarily. Not that it’s excused either way
Way to completely miss the point. Nobody is suggesting they use pagers in Gaza.
