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Replacing physical controls with touch buttons continues to be an incredibly dumb idea. Luckily several other manufactures who hopped on the trend are realizing it was a bad choice.
Is nobody gonna mention this horrible KITT steering wheel?!? That damn thing is dangerous.
Yeah round wheels are not a fuckin style choice. It’s so you can grab it anywhere in any situation. This steering wheel looks fuckin deadly
They are the worst drivers by infractions. Dead wheel is a culling tool.
You can’t even grab 10:00 and 2:00 on it. Looks like the closest you can get is 4:00 and 8:00
10 and 2 is actually no longer taught. 9 and 3 is the new thing
Or 8 and 4.
Keep those arms away from the airbag’s path
The only way a yoke would make sense is if it was drive by wire and could vary the ratio of the wheel dynamically depending on speed.
Oh, I think I would hate that. Variable turning seems so bad for intuition to me.
If poorly executed yes. If done right it may be really awesome. Just like your steering gets stiffer at higher speeds. But obviously I never tried it (although I bet you could rig a simulator to test that theory)
It’s a yoke because top tier race cars use yokes and Elon thinks his teslas are that for some reason. Completely disregarding all the setup and engineering race cars have that make a yoke the more viable option than a wheel…
The funny thing is that they put it on the S/X without changing absolutely anything else, then brought out the Cybertruck with steer-by-wire (where a yoke might actually make sense) and put a squircle on it.
I’m still gobsmacked the Cybertruck is now a thing. Does nobody remember that we were ridiculing the design of that monstrosity 15 years ago?
Like it disappeared for a while, and now it’s suddenly in production with no changes, nearly two decades later? I feel like I’m from a Mandela universe.
They also don’t ship with the yoke by default anymore, the default is a regular round one and have been for a while.
I am a Knight Industries 2000 with a 1000 megabits of memory and a one nanosecond access time.
Ever seen what real life F1 car steering “wheels” look like?
They aren’t meant for public roads, just like Teslas.
Oh absolutely not. Just mentioning it in reference to the way the KITT yoke looks.
TBF KITT could self drive just fine so he didn’t need a very functional “wheel” heh.
I think that’s why Tesla designed it this way. They were relying too much on self driving and not a human driving it.
Those are way more sensitive so there is no need to turn hand over hand. The downside is that that sensitivity can be really hard to handle at high speeds.
Couldn’t the sensitivity be adjusted based on the speed? Doing a hard turn during high speed is a very bad idea anyways.
Yes it could and that is what Lexus is doing.
https://youtu.be/agMrewRJTow?si=_M55DbNd3I4uUvMu
But Tesla is not doing that, so there you still have to turn hand over hand even though you don’t have a round wheel.
I figured that it already exists, it’s not like that’s rocket science. Tesla not doing the obviously right thing is also not surprising.
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You mean those extremely dangerous, highly specialized cars that require a trained athlete to drive?
Not sure why you got down voted so much. Yeah those “wheels” look horrible. But I guess they are professional drivers. And all those buttons and knobs!!?
Likely assumed I was defending the musk mobile rather than just making conversation. I spose I should have been more explicit.
F1 racing is a way different type of driving than “normal” driving. Less need for lots of turning the wheel quickly and more need for controlling car features.
It’s great for Tesla, for one reason - modularity.
If your input/control has a physical button, that immediately needs independent wiring, assembly steps, A THOUGHT OUT PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT PLAN, another BoM item to build the car/widget, and usually markings that limit its use for other functions (present and planned).
Tesla can bury controls and change interfaces as much as they like on the main touchscreen, or even add new features. It’s still trash for driver usability except when parked for all the obvious reasons, but hey they get to ‘push’ new features over cellular networks as they’re developed. Y’know, instead of selling a complete product in the first place.
If your input/control has a physical button, that immediately needs independent wiring
No it doesn’t. It just needs a PCB and a microcontroller connected to a CANbus. And that’s what we’ve had for decades.
another BoM item to build the car
I don’t really understand this either. Like yes, it is, but if we’re taking that approach, why not remove the door panels? And the trunk liner? And that pesky center console? Oh what’s that, these are all valuable features of the car?
Wiring/PCB header or connector/common data hub yes - but my point was that has to be thought out ahead, and cannot be modified afterwards in the same way touch screens can
BoM complexity and cross commonality is a challenge in manufacturing. It’s why we see all these ‘global platforms’ among automakers trying to build one unibody core subframe for all or most of their cars, adding different panels and roof assembly for an SUV or sedan respectively. Fewer parts to stock and build is a cost saving (for the manufacturer, don’t expect them to pass that saving along) - same with tactile controls.
my point was that has to be thought out ahead
Of course it does. The entire vehicle does. They don’t just not make the entire vehicle because they have to think about it. They think very hard about these things.
and cannot be modified afterwards in the same way touch screens can
There’s no reason you should have to modify anything. It doesn’t matter how you modify touchscreen controls, they will always be inferior to physical buttons and dials.
BoM complexity and cross commonality is a challenge in manufacturing.
So make them all use the same controls? You don’t need different climate controls or shifter controls or wiper controls for different vehicles. Many OEMs have standard controls across their entire lineup already.
Wiring/PCB header or connector/common data hub yes - but my point was that has to be thought out ahead, and cannot be modified afterwards in the same way touch screens can
BoM complexity and cross commonality is a challenge in manufacturing. It’s why we see all these ‘global platforms’ among automakers trying to build one unibody core subframe for all or most of their cars, adding different panels and roof assembly for an SUV or sedan respectively. Fewer parts to stock and build is a cost saving (for the manufacturer, don’t expect them to pass that saving along) - same with tactile controls.
The (capacitive) turn signal buttons are on the steering wheel, not the touch screen. You’re thinking of the mirrors, wipers, etc., which is not what this article is about.
It’s great for Tesla, for one reason - modularity.
Not really as far as the touch controls on the steering wheel goes. The icons are static and can’t be changed, so their functionality is kind of tied to the icon.
As for configuring additional controls for them, it’s exactly the same as if they were physical buttons, it’s all a wiring harness going to the computer either way, what that computer does with the input signal is not any less configurable for a physical button. The limiting factor is the static icon, not whether it’s touch/tactile.
In regards to selling incomplete products, this is unfortunately not even limited to Tesla. All car manufacturers release several updates and bugfixes for new cars, they just can’t send them OTA, they need to get them in the shop. My colleague’s VW ID4 has been in the shop for no less than 3 SW updates to fix various bugs and add basic features such as battery preheating for DC charging, it fucking shipped without that!
As a user experience designer, we were having this discussion 15-20 years ago.
I’m so glad everything we brought up at the time was completely ignored. Warms my heart.
For those that don’t want to read the article:
Tesla is going with buttons on the steering wheel instead of a stick to the left of the wheel
Tesla is going with buttons on the steering wheel instead of a stick to the left of the wheel
Its even worse than that. The buttons are smooth surface (like a touch screen) with haptic feedback. These are truly a horrible idea:
If I had one of these Tesla cars I’d look into retrofitting the stalks back in.
If you buy a Tesla at this point, you deserve to be stuck with it.
Up the butt?
They might get in trouble with EU laws if they do it here as well…
Gotta love good regulation.
I thought it was already released in EU.
Holy shit that’s worse than how the article put it
If this catch on, maybe 3rd party Bluetooth/USB stalk will be a thing.
Maybe USB, but I’d certainly not want to end up having to re-pair my Bluetooth mid turn.
That doesn’t sound like it’ll be legal in a lot of countries.
retrofitting the stalks back in.
Tesla is going to sue you for 50000 :-)
Up for right and down for left. Yeah, that makes fuckin’ sense. Did they take their inspiration from the keyboard on the Apple 2GS?
It would have been smarter to zip tie the turn signal switch assembly from a 1980’s motorcycle onto the steering wheel. At least on a motorcycle switch left means left and right means right (and center is cancel).
Wtf, seriously? I’ve tried using media buttons on the steering wheel during a turn. It’s not reliable in the slightest, because it’s a moving target.
Does the non circular steering non-wheel never go past 90 degrees or something?
I once accidentally dialed 911 from my steering wheel phone buttons while pulling a turn. Surprised the shit out of me and the dispatcher didn’t sound like this was the first call of the type. This is a fucking terrible idea.
Tbf you are supposed use the signal before turning wheel
Covered in the article. In Norway you are required to signal when exiting a roundabout. It’s a fair concern.
Just in civilized countries, not only Norway.
Some countries don’t have roundabouts
Civilized countries have roundabout
It’s a significantly more efficient way for dealing with high-traffic in a cross-roads situation (though less safe than traffic signs) and pretty much a must if you get 5 or more roads converging and not enough to space to merge a few of those upstream.
However it takes some practice to be comfortable using them, plus they’re most efficient when drivers reliably signal their intention to exit (because it allows people waiting to go in to know earlier that it’s safe to do so).
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And Australia, at least state of NSW made it mandatory
That’s law across the whole country
I’m pretty sure you don’t have to signal when exiting a roundabout in Victoria. We might be the outlier though. In Vic it’s also legal to U turn anywhere, unless a sign specifically prohibits it.
You may be odd, though the national law is no U-turns at lights unless there is a permissive sign, allowed to U-turn anywhere else unless there’s a restrictive sign
Be careful when driving interstate!
If you are going hand-over-hand in a roundabout, you’re doing something very wrong…
The point is that there will be no way to handle the turn signal through muscle memory. With a traditional control, it is always in the same place in relation to your body. It doesn’t move. When it’s in the steering wheel, it can be in many, many different places. If you have media controls on your steering wheel, try using them during a turn without taking your eyes off the road. Now pretend they are smooth and act like a touch input on a dual shock controller.
With a traditional control, it is always in the same place in relation to your body
As is the one on the wheel. Right next to your thumb.
Your thumb stays at the same place on the steering wheel when you’re not driving straight? O.o
That’s not the issue, imagining driving through a roundabout that curves left and having to find a button somewhere on the steering wheel, which is at an angle, in order to indicate right before turning tight in order to exit the roundabout.
A stalk will always be in the same position. The same cannot be said for buttons.
imagining driving through a roundabout that curves left and having to find a button somewhere on the steering wheel
Your don’t have to “find” anything, it’s right next to your thumb
Drivers frequently change their hand placement as they turn the wheel. You lose precision and basic ability to manipulate the wheel if you don’t.
Again, it depends on the angle of the steering wheel. The buttons may be upside down if the car is turning sharply enough.
I think you’re right. People in this thread are forgetting that this steering yoke doesn’t have anywhere to put your hands other than right next to the buttons
A driving instructor saying “I couldn’t use this on my first go” isn’t a fatal argument for the control
Sure a stick is probably superior, but I bet you could build muscle memory on a wheel that works like a race car’s
But it’s not a yoke, it’s a steering wheel, which generally turn up to 1 and 1/2 times each way, which with a small radius roundabout (which is a lot of them in Norway) means you’ll have to go hand over hand to turn sharply enough, thus not having your hands on the exact same spots through the turn and thus not able to press the right haptic feedback panel at that time.
In addition to roundabouts, there are plenty of freeway exists that loop around where you can be at an extreme turn and need to initiate a lane change. Or making a right turn into a gas station after a left turn at an intersection… lots of use cases.
You wish but it’s not drive by wire. You steel to turn in multiple times in sharp angles. Of the ratio were to change relative to speed it would make sense but right now it’s just plain dumb.
Not sure about the older teslas, but the cybertruck steering is way more sensitive, so you shouldn’t need to turn it more than 90°. And the buttons on the wheel are at least normal clicky buttons now, instead of touch sensitive areas. Which is less bad, but still pretty bad.
My old peugeot even has an extra stick behind the wheel for the radio control, and it’s the best UX ever invented.
What? You’d be hitting the turn signal when you’re going straight. Do you drive a BMW or something?
Turns exist on curved roads too. So do lane changes.
What about exiting a roundabout?
Very true, although in my experience you’re more likely to encounter someone putting on their blinker mid-turn as someone properly signaling a roundabout exit…
Or driving down a twisty road, which where I live is most roads.
In Norway, you have to indicate your exit in a roundabout by activating your turn signal, and he found it difficult while turning the steering wheel, which you have to do in a roundabout. A driving student would fail their test if they don’t activate their turn signal in a roundabout in Norway.
He said:
I tested the Model 3, and noticed that I lost both focus and direction in roundabouts. It’s not directly life-threatening, but you run the risk of both driving on curbs and other cars if there are two lanes.
After posting his findings in a group for driving schools, he was met with agreement by many other instructors who said that they experienced the same issue and the risk is much higher with students.
It’s like car features that have been around for 70+ years are the way they are for a reason.
Reminds me of the guy that built that sub that got crushed. There are standards in place for good reasons and ignoring them is a bad idea.
Yup, and just like the sub Tesla did multiple things that were substandard because they worked in controlled environments and even worked ok the real world for a short time before failing.
It should be painfully obvious by now that Elon Must is one of those “I know best” Pigheaded Ignorants.
He always “knows best” so almost a century of auto engineering verified by trillions of hours of actual field use are meaningless next to his “superior” ideas (which whilst looking like UI design are painfully devoid of actual UI/UX expertise).
It’s the same reason why when he started Tesla he tried to fully automate car manufacturing whilst having zero experience in auto manufacturing and it blew up badly and all his early factories had to be retooled and hire actual auto-workers.
No wander he turned out to be a rightwing-nutter: In my experience “I know best” Pigheaded Ignorants is one of the most common personality profiles in that tribe.
People who actually know how to signal in a roundabout are a rare breed. Dunno how it’s in other countries but the German rules actually make sense: Don’t signal when entering. There’s exactly one way to go, so why would you. Don’t signal when driving around the roundabout as that’s straight ahead (even if it’s a circle). Do signal before the exit you want to take, this is for the benefit of people waiting to enter (or maybe those behind but only on 2-lane roundabouts). As a corollary: If you signal while you enter you’re pining straight for the first exit… but honestly avoid it too many people signal wrong so it’s better to not play fast+loose.
That’s not the way I learned in France, where they make you signal left before entering and use the inner lane, only if you’re going further than halfway through the roundabout.
You signal right before entering only if you’re taking the first exit.
In any case you signal right after driving past the last exit before your own.
Australian rules are (we keep left and go clockwise around roundabouts)
- If turning left, indicate left throughout the entry and exit
- If turning right, indicate right, indicate left after the exit before the one you are using
- If going straight ahead don’t indicate on entry, indicate left after the exit before the one you’re taking
I’m sure most people follow the rules, but I see a lot who indicate wrong, and the drivers of the various premium brands don’t indicate at all ever
in the Netherlands people often do signal left while on the roundabout but that feels mostly because of cyclists who also do so.
Do they have cyclists and cars in the same roundabout at the same time?
Do any of them survive?
Yes they do; seperate paths.
The red ones are bicycle paths.
Ooohhh, nice!
Roundabouts and bikes aren’t really a problem? It’s normally safer to do them normally than dismount and use the pedestrian crossings like they seem to want you to do (unless there are traffic light controlled crossings)
You just have to hold your lane like you are a car.
Roundabouts and bikes aren’t really a problem?
In theory, probably not.
In every single situation that I have experienced, when both car and bike were in a roundabout together, there was some kind of problem (mostly not serious, fortunately).
You just have to hold your lane
Yes. Most times one or both did not do that.
My experience as a cyclist has been that I’m generally the safest I can be when I ride in the middle of the car lane.
That includes roundabouts.
Tesla’s reasoning for going away with a method universally used for signaling turn for decades is that it enables them to remove a physical part, the stalk, and it believes activating a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving.
Why the hell do billionaires keep laughing in our faces? I swear every time one of them or their companies opens their mouth, it’s like they’re making fun of us, the poor people.
“We care about your privacy” — (they don’t) “a turn signal will soon be unnecessary” etc.
a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving
That’s like not including a stick for the manual transmission, because the automatic one is just around the corner.
I wish I possessed this kind of optimism in my daily life :D
I enjoy driving stick, but stick will likely not last forever. We will not be able to burn fossil fuels for that much longer in the grand scheme of things. Electric vehicles usually have a single speed transmission, so there are literally no gears to change. Perhaps there may be an alternative fuel vehicle that still has multiple speed transmission, in which case stick could still exist, though how many car manufacturers would make them?
Probably no one, but there is nothing preventing from enthusiasts from hooking an electric drive motor up to a traditional manual transmission just to be perverse. I would.
What would the manual transmission do? Unless you literally mean it doesn’t impact the cars driving and is just there for you to move around. Electric vehicles are not changing gears, so there are no gears to hook up a manual transmission to
It would give you a manual transmission driving experience. Nothing more.
(There are no gears in an internal combustion engine, either. At least not in the context you’re thinking of. The gears are in the transmission. That’s why anyone in the Commonwealth calls it a “gearbox.”)
Even in petrol cars automatic transmissions are more common than manual for new cars now. Automatic has just become better and better, and there’s just very little reason to have a manual these days.
And worse is that people have been complaining about the lack of buttons and knobs for some time already.
it believes activating a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving.
Okay, but self driving hasn’t happened yet and still faces significant problems. Removing a turn signal for this is like smoking constantly because you think cancer will be cured in the future.
Plus it breaks one of the unspoken rules of new designs. You never take away functionality, you only add it.
Man, the other day I saw an entire row of prime spots free in a packed parking lot… “electric vehicles only” parking.
So rich people parking… Cool. This feels great.
Get a used leaf and park there.
Where I have driven the chargers are always in the furthest corner of the carpark
This has been my experience, and really the right way. As an EV owner, I don’t need to charge most of the time and I should be willing to walk further if I really want to charge away from home.
Of course, in general EV is great when you can charge at home. Not so great if you can’t do that. Other than at a house, I only ever charge at work, and then only because work offers it for free.
That’s it. I almost only charge at home. Never at work, never at the shops. I can imagine people who can’t charge at home will want work carpark charging
On my Christmas/new year holiday I drove 1200km away, 600km a day two days there two back.
The charge stops were three a day, each 10 or 15 minutes, though we could generally have skipped the one after lunch since the time to order, get, and eat lunch meant getting a full charge, and the car has something like 400km range on the highway, though only 350 on the freeway/motorway.
One thing I found on that drive is that the charging network is mostly in the small towns (I guess that’s because they can get competition between neighbouring towns to get the best deal on land leasing) and the chargers are always either near the town centre, or next to a park. One is behind the roadhouse restaurant near the motorway services - behind the staff parking, general parking is in front of the restaurant
On the night between the two halves of the trip each way we stayed in a motel, and they give EV drivers a parking spot with a power point 10A x 240V so I could get about 80% full over night, which is enough for the next day’s first drive. Calling them out since they’re good: Goldfields motor inn, Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
DC charging is fine for the occasional road trip, but I would absolutely hate it if that were my everyday charging solution.
Home charging is fantastic, but without it, I’d find an EV impractical for day to day. With it, it’s hands down better than dealing with a gas car.
Shopping centres and work parking charges tend to be slow chargers
Which at my work, is fine. 3 hours of work charging gets me about 60 miles of range replenished. I am at work that long so it’s fine.
For 99.9% of my trips to a shopping center, it wouldn’t be worth the trouble to plug in.
The new Tesla Model 3 should be banned from the whole of Europe until they put the indicator stalk back. It is virtually impossible to safely and legally traverse a roundabout without it.
How do people indicate without it? Is the car supposed to automatically turn it on once it senses you leaving the lane?
It has little buttons on the wheel for left or right instead of a stalk. Problem is when you’re going through a roundabout you’re twirling the wheel around so it is almost impossible to to know where the buttons are at any given point in time. A stalk stays put, the buttons are anywhere depending on where the wheel is at. I think this video demonstrates it most clearly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBFxbKTEWu8
Do you fully rotate the Tesla wheel though? I know with electronic steering racks it’s possible to control the car like an F1 is driven so you never need to go hand over hand to make a turn. The steering is speed sensitive and at higher speeds the wheel is less responsive. Lexus is introducing this in the US on a model. Does the Tesla not have the same?
The video you posted has a circular wheel versus the thumbnail of the post has an F1 style wheel.
The wheel in a Model 3 has a typical steering wheel motion 1 1/2 rotations or whatever either way - you have no idea where the buttons will be at any given moment especially on a roundabout where you could be rolling right, rolling left and having to signal at the same time. Even if it were steer by wire and yoke like, the buttons are still moving around. So drivers have no chance of indicating safely or as the law requires. Basically all of this nonsense so Tesla can cheap out on a stalk which is probably a $10 part.
Which is why I think they should be banned or recalled in Europe.
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In the article it says they replaced it with force touch buttons but the driving instructors all found the buttons to be disorientating and dangerous on roundabouts whilst trying to turn the wheel. The stalk makes for a mich more fluid and less distracting method.
Tesla believe that no turn signals will be needed once they perfect self deiving cars (likely never…)
What the fuck is the point of an indicator after you’d already started the action. That light ain’t indicating any more about the driver than the fact that they bought a Tesla after 2022, and that tells you everything you need to know about them.
That’s just too late to signal…
When I drive roundabouts I keep my hands on the wheel in the same spots so in relation to my thumb, the turn signals are in the same spot?
I think if the wheel wasn’t a yoke shape, it’d be different because I might just put one hand on top, but in this case it works OK.
Since the yoke forces you to keep your hands on the same place relative to the button, presuming you’re keeping your hands on the wheel
Give it another few years and I think all Teslas will use the new steer by wire in the CT and the problem will go away anyway.
Edit: maybe few is generous, whenever the next major refreshes happen after a few years.
Tesla’s reasoning for going away with a method universally used for signaling turn for decades is that it enables them to remove a physical part, the stalk, and it believes activating a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving.
Spit my drink up a bit when I read that.
Meanwhile Teslas are quickly building a reputation of being impossible to repair, so replacing an industry standard component that never breaks for a digital system is a great way to keep the title.
will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving.
by next year, they said for the umpteenth time this decade.
Might as well get rid of the brake lights while they’re at it
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Yeah, it’s not designed with roundabouts, (i.e. road infrastructure designed with logic and common sense) in mind.
It’s not designed with any common sense in mind. They just figured they could a) cut costs and b) make the vehicle look “cleaner”, because Musk and the people who work for him are intellectually incurious morons who refuse to learn why things are designed the way they are before trying to reinvent them.
The thing about breaking the rules is that if you want to really do it well, you have to understand why those rules exist in the first place. That’s hard to do when you start from the position of just assuming that you’re smarter than everyone else.
i am not sure they even kept the cost down since they had to reintroduce the option of normal steering wheels, this just another case of Musk thinking it looks cool so it should be, but then done poorly because they don’t have the engineering expertise to do it properly like lexus did it
This is just another case of Cybertruck shit.
How did Lexus do it?
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How did Lexus do it?
It was designed to cut costs and hope fanbois would think it was innovation. It’s so dangerous a change it should be banned in countries where drivers are expected to properly indicate while traversing roundabouts.
Cuz that’s the only place you want to signal intent to other drivers?
Well, in a roundabout how else are the other drives gonna know you turn right?
There are other places you signal intent. At every turn in fact
Leak of Tesla’s next-gen Steering wheel:
What? Physical controls? It’ll be a touch screen.
No no, the steering wheel will be in the touch screen.
Calling it now: Swipe to steer
Don’t give them any ideas!
After you closed that popup ad.
After waiting 20 seconds for the itty bitty X to appear in a random corner
And it’ll be in the middle of the car!
And there will be a mode where you can rotate the touch screen instead. But it will still be in the center.
You can grip a lot more of it, so it would objectively be an improvement.
PLEASE, give us the sounds, too! :-)
I didn’t realize Tesla’s even came with turn signals. They must be hard to find because they never get used.
I swear to god Tesla drivers are going for the worst drivers award.
Just let your fucking car drive itself if you cannot.
Tesla was all like “hold my beer” to the BMW club.
The Cybertruck definitely has them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B75R6sN0obE
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To be fair, they were just following the trend of BMW and Mustang cars
Tesla’s even
Odd too. Or did you pluralize with an apostrophe? If it’s the latter, you’re sentenced to repeat the third grade.
Imagine being this condescending about grammar on an international forum.
Words matter not if understand you.
Imagine crying like this because someone’s phone autocorrected.
Tesla fucking up traditional driving controls only make sense if their self-driving system is working so the driver has no need to touch the steering wheel except in rare case. How good is Tesla’s full self driving these days?
It regularly kills people. It can’t be used on a lot of road types (but people still do because Tesla makes no effort to prevent it). It’s still marketed as Full Self Driving despite the fact that Tesla has stated on the record that it is, and I quote, “Not capable of driving itself.”
They’re trying to have their cake and eat it too. Any time it benefits them, they claim that their cars are completely autonomous vehicles powered by the most advanced AI. Any time they get their wrists slapped, they claim that it’s an assistive feature like cruise control that cannot and will not ever replace the human behind the wheel.
It regularly kills people
Could you link an article saying so? I couldn’t find anything with a quick google search about people being killed by Tesla FSD
Edit to add: this fairly recent article https://insideevs.com/news/655983/tesla-full-self-driving-beta-crash-stats-revealed/ says they’re pretty safe.
I don’t need to provide you with evidence that FSD has caused crashes. There’s plenty; if you can’t find it you’re not looking.
As to your point about accident statistics, that’s responding to a different point than the one I was making. I didn’t say that it kills people more often than they kill themselves (through dangerous, inattentive or reckless driving). I just said that it regularly kills people. There’s potentially some hyperbole there, you can quibble over definitions of “regularly” if you want to be a pendant, I really don’t care.
The point is that when it does go wrong, it often goes spectacularly wrong, such as this case where a Tesla plowed into a truck or this thankfully low speed example of a very confused Tesla driving into oncoming traffic.
Could a human make these errors? Absolutely. But would you, as a human, want to trust yourself to a vehicle that is capable of making these kinds of errors? Are you happy with the idea of possibly dying because the machine you’re in made one critical error? Perhaps an error that you yourself would not have made under the same circumstances?
A lot of people will answer “yes” to that, but for me personally any autopilot that requires constant supervision to make sure it doesn’t kill me is more of a negative than a positive. Even if you try to pay attention, automation blindness will inevitably kick in. And really what is even the point of self driving if you have to be paying attention? If it’s not freeing you up to focus on other things then it might as well not be there at all.
Maybe search for killed while on autopilot?
That’s all the people who were asleep on the highway or driving at very high speed in town
The recent versions don’t allow either of those behaviours now, so those crashes aren’t happening anymore.Full self driving doesn’t do that
And the deaths I’m interested in are these ones being caused by FSD, not lane keeping and cruise control. Loads of brands do lane keeping and cruise control and implement it no better than Tesla
But does FSD change the logic for the lane keeping and the speed & distance?
Aren’t one of the features “navigate on autopilot?”
It is quite different. Navigate on autopilot is lane keeping, cruise control, and automatic highway exits. FSD tries to do all driving tasks - turns at stop signs, at lights, keeping to the correct side on roads with no centre line, negotiating with oncoming traffic on narrow roads…
Yeah it adds more capabilities for sure. But if you are on a moderate to high speed road where autopilot works fine, then is the control logic any different?
Obviously there are various tours of accidents that autopilot would never get the chance to cause, like maybe turning right at an intersection and hitting a pedestrian. But do they act differently on a main road where teslas have done things like run into tractor trailers?
Just keep in mind that FSD is only as safe as they claim because it’s supervised.
I would hope that even a reasonably working system would be better with a human vigilantly watching it than a human driving regularly.
The system would have to be really bad to be worse than that.
No
Even if it were ready, what proportion of buyers spend the extra $12k to get self-driving?
If FSD was truly autonomous, or an excellent level 2 system?
Truly autonomous, at 12k, it would have unlimited demand. Production would be the only restraint.
Edit: Tesla might even prioritize sales with FSD or only make FSD cars at that point and rake in the profits.
About 1 in 5, though recent changes to price and the widening of the full self driving beta will have changed that since the stats were released in 2022
Tesla say it crashes enough to deploy an airbag about one fifth as often as human drivers (once per 3,200,000 miles versus once per 600,000)
So safer than the average driver, presumably less safe than a safe driver
Be wary of cherry picked data.
The average human driver has a car that’s five years older than the oldest model 3. This means five years more age on various safety equipment, five years more primitive collision avoidance systems, cars without stability control, etc.
The autopilot system only engages in ideal circumstances. Poor visibility, poorly marked road, bad weather, all scenarios that are high risk that autopilot wont touch that also cause a lot of human accidents.
I’m talking full self driving beta, not autopilot. FSD works on bad roads, car parks, any weather it can see in, including moderately heavy rain. It won’t work in heavy fog, but I won’t drive in that either. Autopilot has a long history of only working on highways which upped its safety, but also a history of working hands off and at any speed.
Also note that the initial beta was only open to the safest, most responsible, drivers according to Tesla data (Tesla have a lot of data on their drivers, many opt in to sharing everything in the hope of hurrying better automation) so the cars were very well supervised
I’m really hanging out for insurance data once this system is out of beta
Even with FSD, I don’t think we can be anywhere close to a comparable cohort.
To expand on the safety equipment, I wager the average driver with their 12.5 year old car also doesn’t have regen braking. So while 99% of Teslas likely have near pristine brake systems due to age and regen braking, the average driver is more likely to experience “surprise, your brakes are out!”
Also, particularly based on my time with rural folk with cars in the woods, I’m highly doubtful that no matter how aggressive FSD may be, it won’t be as daring as some dubious human operators in that “average” cohort.
Also, I’d wonder how Tesla would treat an FSD deactivation by driver intervention. If a crash is unavoidable and imminent, I’d imagine an aware driver might manage to yank the wheel in time to deactivate, but still get in an airbag deploying crash.
There’s also some potetntial slush around “accidents that activate airbags”. Different models have different sensitivies.
But all this falls second to a primary concern: never trust what amounts to marketing data from any company compared to something like NHTSA data.
Would be interesting if someone could do the legwork to manage “like for like” to tell safety due to: -General age of car in general -Regenerative braking versus standard -Stability control, collision avoidance, automatic braking and so forth -Like for like driving conditions -Data for Teslas including human operation, autopilot and FSD. Particularly if human operator, but FSD was on less than 10 seconds before impact.
“surprise, your brakes are out!”
That really doesn’t happen from wear. Brakes only surprise fail on long descents where the driver doesn’t use engine braking. If brakes fail like that you have the hand brake/e-brake
EVs of course use regen braking almost always in that situation - though they can’t when their battery is full - my car expects to arrive at the coast at 20% battery, at the top of the coastal mountain range it’s at 15%, but at the beach it has regenerated to 20%
The rest I generally agree. We need better data, especially better data from someone other than Tesla.
I am more concerned about why the Witcher 3 is featured on the car’s screen. Does it double as a PC?
Edit: Spelling
Yea, fof models X and S, they have a discrete GPU and can run steam.
I assume the GPU is intended to be used by the autopilot AI?
Imagine crashing because you set the graphics too high in your game, and it got priority on the GPU so the self driving AI process hanged. Better reboot the car before the cops show.
Nah it’s so you can get some gaming in while you’re cruise controlling home and drunk
… What?
With what OS?
I thought that was cloud streaming.
Tesla has the highest accident rate of any car brand. And Tesla intends to remain number 1 in that regard
Rapid acceleration, with your eyes pointed a center touch screen. What could go wrong?!
They are unsafe in every situation, not just on roundabouts.
Style over substance, and a ugly style at that. Of course lots of people are gonna love it and say it is the best thing ever.
Hey just like web and software design.
lots of people are gonna love it and say it is the best thing ever.
Kind of funny reading this in a thread filled with a bunch of tripping over each other trying to show how they hate Tesla the most.
The Fediverse does not represent the real world. There is big anti-corporate and anti-Elon bias here. Most people just don’t give a shit.
I understand that. It’s the irony of seeing someone partaking in a circle jerker shitting on other people for circle jerking.
While in the EU Teslas were already “banned”, if you want a proper cat B license, and not just a cat B(78). If you take the test in a car with automatic transmission you get a code 78 license, with which you can legally only drive automatic transmission vehicles.
Is the EU mostly manual transmissions?
In the US, seeing a manual transmission these days is somewhat rare. I used to work at a car dealership’s service department as a valet, and most of us younger guys who’d never driven a manual before had to get someone else to drive it whenever one showed up. (That happened maybe once a month or less.)
Manuel transmission used to be the norm. The last couple of times I rented a car/got a loaner at the mechanic, I was asked if an automatic would be OK. I have met people who avoid automatics altogether. Probably because they’re unsure of how to drive them. TBF the first time I test drove an automatic, the first stop I made, I was glad to be wearing my seat belt, as I was used to use left foot, push that pedal hard and then brake… My wife and I were almost climbing down from the dashboard after that.
When I said earlier that manuels used to be the norm, that’s because of the emergence of EVs and PHEVs. Our EV was our first car with no clutch.
Sooo after writing that boring drivel above, I decided to look it up on the most used second hand car platform. Turns out the about half the cars registered as pure ICEs are automatics. But then sampling the search results it’s evident that a lot of the cars on the first page, have been registered wrong, and are in fact hybrids. So I don’t have a solid figure. I’ve loitered the sales floor of my mechanic for 30mins, while my car is in for diagnosics. Looks like about 3 out of last 20 or so ICEs I’ve looked at are automatics.
I live in the UK, I’ve only ever driven manuals. I know one or two people with automatics, wouldn’t fancy having one myself though. I feel like the manual shift gives me more control.
I prefer manuals, they’re more fun to drive, but the future is inevitably automatic with EVs.
Yes Europe is mostly manual. You pay a heavy premium to get a car with automatic transmission. Anecdotally, I bought a Skoda ~5 years ago and had to pay ~20% more for automatic transmission than manual.
I was even told that my insurance would be lower because manuals were harder to steal because so few people can drive’m.
I wish that was true in my city. I love driving the manual shift car but it certainly hasn’t saved us anything on car insurance. The idea of a car thief who can’t drive stick shift is so funny, needs a movie. The only benefits beyond fun and not worrying about an automatic transmission failing is some odd respect from valet guys and mechanics and old men.
At least in my country and in the middle of the EU, manuals are still more popular than automatic ones. Usually because no one really wants an electric cars (due to lack of infrastructure and high price), people just get the basic petrol cars with manual transmissions.
I’m an American living in Denmark. Everyone here knows how to drive them even if their current car is automatic. They are becoming more popular, though.
Of course everyone knows how to drive an automatic, there is nothing to learn if you already know how to drive a manual. You just push the pedal and the car moves.
Nah, automatic are common.
The reasoning is, if you know how to drive manual you also know how to drive automatic, but not vice versa.
Used to be, but the transition to mostly automatic is happening as we speak
they are the most advanced company in cost-cutting. They will put everything in 10 sub menus on the screen instead of costly buttons. And the people are confused, they see big screen they think cool. But having metal physical buttons and crowns with haptic feedback is just on another level 🤤. Especially those crowns where theres a silent click that you feel with every turn. Feels so fricking good damn.
