which side is really refusing negotiations: the ones getting armed by the biggest military power in the planet, with the intention of ethnic cleansing, or the ones getting their country leveled fighting with improvised bombs?
Saying “this section of the planet belongs to a specific race because they’re fractionally descended from one of the people that lived there a long time ago” is dumb as fuck. Modern people have 0 connection to Jews that long ago and most modern Israeli Jews aren’t actually ethnically similar to Jews thousands of years ago, most Israelis are primarily European descendant or other non-Palestinian descendant.
Modern Israelis are not the same group as the various historical groups referred to as “Jews”. Your logic is flawed.
Just a slight correction; something like 60 percent of modern Israelis are Mizrahi, meaning they are from the Middle East and have no European ancestry or connection to Europe. Ethnically they are very similar to the Palestinians and if you put them together in a mixed group, you probably wouldn’t be able to tell them apart based on appearance alone.
There’s also no reason to think that Mizrahi Jews aren’t largely descended from the ancient Jewish population since wherever they’ve lived in the Middle East, they’ve never been fully integrated and have always been pretty insular. Most scholars think that the same is true to a lesser extent of Ashkenazi Jews as well, though obviously they have a lot more European ancestry.
Total war is not just an abstract political move, it’s an immense suffering and deaths of dozens of thousands of civilians.
It’s easy to play political mastermind from the safety and comfort of your home. People who witnessed war know full well what it entails, and they know it’s not just numbers and maps and politics.
It’s blood. It’s broken families. It’s famine. It’s the destruction of everything they valued. It’s PTSD for just about everyone who managed to survive.
Think twice before saying things like that. Please.
I’m simply describing the situation in Gaza for what it is, Total War. I’m not advocating for it, but I recognize that Israel is going to respond to October 7 as they see fit.
Would you rather I described it in a way that didn’t hurt your fragile sensibilities?
The fact that I described the current situation as “Total war”. Seems to offend you. Should I say both sides are making a “fluffy”, would that make you feel better?
Sorry it’s been a day between posting and responding. On top of that there are a lot of tools in this thread and it hard to keep every conversation straight.
But in short Israel is a sovereign nation whose citizens were just attacked in a large scale well coordinated manner. They have every right to go after the perpetrators. If total war and the leveling of Gaza is what it takes and they have the ability to execute it then so be it.
Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.
There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
What’s the ethnic makeup of Israel? What’s the ethnic makeup of Palestine? Which one is closer to the definition of an ethno state? Do words not mean anything to you?
You’re granted citizenship automatically if you’re Jewish and you get a free trip to go there. Being Jewish grants one special privileges. The country is based entirely on ethnicity and was established with that as a core principle. If it’s not technically considered an ethnostate, it’s about the closest that a country can be one without being one in that case.
Might makes right, huh? I already know Palestine will be completely ethnically cleansed and then israel will move onto taking parts of Syria and other countries in their goal of lebensraum. That doesn’t mean it’s morally right.
You either didn’t read my comment from earlier in the thread or you enjoy trying to frame an argument.
I’ll post it below for you to read and educate yourself.
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
The negotiations were argued in bad faith. Israel would put forth ridiculous demands and then lay the blame on Palestine for rejecting them. Why do you think Palestinians are being pushed out of Gaza and have been continually and constantly pushed out for decades? There was never a sincere effort for a two-state solution.
Nobody wants to take on many refugees all at once, it’s very difficult to manage. Why do you think Britain “volunteered” Palestinian land to relocate Jews out of Europe? It wasn’t out of the goodness of their heart.
Bullshit, there have been multiple attempts at a settlement with regional actors who were sympathetic to the Palestinians. Palestinians turned them all down.
Not a single country in the Middle East has volunteered to take in even a token amount of refugees… Egypt used to control the Sinai and govern that region… nada, zilch, zero refugees allowed to cross into their boarders.
Nobody in the Middle East except Iran wants anything to do with the Palestinians. Iran is only happy to use them to further their regional goals.
Saudi was in the middle of negotiations with Israel before this conflict broke out.
Why is this? Because everyone has tried to negotiate a peace and the Palestinians refuse to come to terms.
Israel is waging total war on Gaza. It’s ugly and civilians will be killed. Nobody is going to stop them because the region wants an end to this conflict one way or another and no one gives a shit about Palestine.
Brutalizing Gaza and driving Hamas out is the only way this is going to be solved.
The Jews were going to end up somewhere after WW2. Their ancestral homeland won out. They also had the backing of major Western powers.
Nations fall and nations rise, such is life. Don’t be on the wrong side of his . Jews all over the Middle East have been pushed out of their communities since Israel was founded. Sucks for them as well, once again don’t be on the wrong side of history.
Who the fuck cares about a claim from thousands of years ago? Can you even count how many Greats you would have to add to even reach your goat herder of a grandpa back when Jesus was still around?
This is just trying to revive a dead dream and we all get to suffer for it.
Yeah i think a couple of Neanderthals descendants have claims that go back tens of thousands of years. do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding hearth?
Also my cousin has Etruscan blood, should he kick Italians out of Italy as he has a claim that goes back TWO thousands years and he’s got nowhere to go since his wife kicked him out?
Now imagine a civil war begins in the US. Both sides get too weak. And then the Cherokee, Apache, … receive all the military help they need from, let’s say, China. And they start killing “every non Nation person” because “that was our land”. Would you say that’s right and that all and every white/black/Asian person deserve it?
Well yea, to be fair if half these Redditors Lemmies lived in the Middle East they would be calling for the genocide of the US after what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq
Maybe Hamas shouldn’t start shit.
except the israelis were the ones starting shit 7 decades ago
hamas is just a convenient excuse for genocide
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which side is really refusing negotiations: the ones getting armed by the biggest military power in the planet, with the intention of ethnic cleansing, or the ones getting their country leveled fighting with improvised bombs?
Points to the October attack on Israel.
Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me.
Ah yes. History began on October 7th. There is no context to anything involving anything prior to October 7th 2023.
Although even looking at just October 7th and what has happened since… kind of elucidates what the fuck has been going on.
Hell even 7 decades ago Einstein was looking at what was just starting and went “Well this is some Nazi shit.”
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Saying “this section of the planet belongs to a specific race because they’re fractionally descended from one of the people that lived there a long time ago” is dumb as fuck. Modern people have 0 connection to Jews that long ago and most modern Israeli Jews aren’t actually ethnically similar to Jews thousands of years ago, most Israelis are primarily European descendant or other non-Palestinian descendant.
Modern Israelis are not the same group as the various historical groups referred to as “Jews”. Your logic is flawed.
Just a slight correction; something like 60 percent of modern Israelis are Mizrahi, meaning they are from the Middle East and have no European ancestry or connection to Europe. Ethnically they are very similar to the Palestinians and if you put them together in a mixed group, you probably wouldn’t be able to tell them apart based on appearance alone.
There’s also no reason to think that Mizrahi Jews aren’t largely descended from the ancient Jewish population since wherever they’ve lived in the Middle East, they’ve never been fully integrated and have always been pretty insular. Most scholars think that the same is true to a lesser extent of Ashkenazi Jews as well, though obviously they have a lot more European ancestry.
That’s all Israelis including non-Jews afaik, when we specify Israeli Jews the number is allegedly at least 50-60% being of mainly European descent.
The more reasonable and manageable timeframe might be closer to living generations currently in existence.
The hyperbole kind of misses its intended mark when itself misses the context of a call for context.
Derp a derp
Total war is not just an abstract political move, it’s an immense suffering and deaths of dozens of thousands of civilians.
It’s easy to play political mastermind from the safety and comfort of your home. People who witnessed war know full well what it entails, and they know it’s not just numbers and maps and politics.
It’s blood. It’s broken families. It’s famine. It’s the destruction of everything they valued. It’s PTSD for just about everyone who managed to survive.
Think twice before saying things like that. Please.
I’m simply describing the situation in Gaza for what it is, Total War. I’m not advocating for it, but I recognize that Israel is going to respond to October 7 as they see fit.
Would you rather I described it in a way that didn’t hurt your fragile sensibilities?
You claim “total war is justified”. I say it’s pretty much never justified.
What kind of fragile sensibilities are you talking about here?
The fact that I described the current situation as “Total war”. Seems to offend you. Should I say both sides are making a “fluffy”, would that make you feel better?
Nope, you ignored my last message.
You said, and I cite you here: “Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me.”
This is total war, yes, wholeheartedly agreed here. It is not justified in any way, shape or form.
Sorry it’s been a day between posting and responding. On top of that there are a lot of tools in this thread and it hard to keep every conversation straight.
But in short Israel is a sovereign nation whose citizens were just attacked in a large scale well coordinated manner. They have every right to go after the perpetrators. If total war and the leveling of Gaza is what it takes and they have the ability to execute it then so be it.
200 dead from a terrorist attack committed by terrorists justifies 20,000 civilian deaths by carpet bombing and levelling entire communities?
If Hamas is wiped out then yes, that is what total war is.
If Hamas really cared for the people under its authority, it would not have attacked nor would it use them as human shields.
hamas is a terrorist organization that does not encapsulate all Palestinians. That’d be like killing everyone in the US to dispose of the KKK.
Don’t threaten me with a good time
yea it’d almost be like, if the kkk was the government
Here’s a more apt analogy: It’d be like killing everyone in North Korea to get Kim Jong Un and pals
missed the /s?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.
There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
That’s funny that you think you’re on the right side of history for supporting a genocidal ethnostate.
What’s the ethnic makeup of Israel? What’s the ethnic makeup of Palestine? Which one is closer to the definition of an ethno state? Do words not mean anything to you?
You’re granted citizenship automatically if you’re Jewish and you get a free trip to go there. Being Jewish grants one special privileges. The country is based entirely on ethnicity and was established with that as a core principle. If it’s not technically considered an ethnostate, it’s about the closest that a country can be one without being one in that case.
I guess we’ll see in 50 years which nation still exists.
Looks at all of Palestine’s immediate neighbors in the Middle East who won’t even lift a finger to even admit refugees.
I think I know where I’ll put my money.
Might makes right, huh? I already know Palestine will be completely ethnically cleansed and then israel will move onto taking parts of Syria and other countries in their goal of lebensraum. That doesn’t mean it’s morally right.
You either didn’t read my comment from earlier in the thread or you enjoy trying to frame an argument.
I’ll post it below for you to read and educate yourself.
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
TLDR: Palestine will be wiped of the map unless they choose a different path. Israel isn’t going anywhere.
The negotiations were argued in bad faith. Israel would put forth ridiculous demands and then lay the blame on Palestine for rejecting them. Why do you think Palestinians are being pushed out of Gaza and have been continually and constantly pushed out for decades? There was never a sincere effort for a two-state solution.
Nobody wants to take on many refugees all at once, it’s very difficult to manage. Why do you think Britain “volunteered” Palestinian land to relocate Jews out of Europe? It wasn’t out of the goodness of their heart.
No response to this of course. Don’t even expect one. They are currently with their fingers in their ears yelling “LALALLALALALA”
Bullshit, there have been multiple attempts at a settlement with regional actors who were sympathetic to the Palestinians. Palestinians turned them all down.
Not a single country in the Middle East has volunteered to take in even a token amount of refugees… Egypt used to control the Sinai and govern that region… nada, zilch, zero refugees allowed to cross into their boarders.
Nobody in the Middle East except Iran wants anything to do with the Palestinians. Iran is only happy to use them to further their regional goals.
Saudi was in the middle of negotiations with Israel before this conflict broke out.
Why is this? Because everyone has tried to negotiate a peace and the Palestinians refuse to come to terms.
Israel is waging total war on Gaza. It’s ugly and civilians will be killed. Nobody is going to stop them because the region wants an end to this conflict one way or another and no one gives a shit about Palestine.
Brutalizing Gaza and driving Hamas out is the only way this is going to be solved.
Israel hasn’t existed for a long ass time until the last century, shouldn’t that be evidence that Jewish people don’t belong there by your logic?
The Jews were going to end up somewhere after WW2. Their ancestral homeland won out. They also had the backing of major Western powers.
Nations fall and nations rise, such is life. Don’t be on the wrong side of his . Jews all over the Middle East have been pushed out of their communities since Israel was founded. Sucks for them as well, once again don’t be on the wrong side of history.
Who the fuck cares about a claim from thousands of years ago? Can you even count how many Greats you would have to add to even reach your goat herder of a grandpa back when Jesus was still around?
This is just trying to revive a dead dream and we all get to suffer for it.
That’s what drives me crazy about dated religions and ultra nationalism. We could have flying cars if people stopped with this shit
I don’t really get the logic: is an older claim or a more recent claim to land “more valid”?
Yeah i think a couple of Neanderthals descendants have claims that go back tens of thousands of years. do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding hearth?
Also my cousin has Etruscan blood, should he kick Italians out of Italy as he has a claim that goes back TWO thousands years and he’s got nowhere to go since his wife kicked him out?
Maybe check your fireplace if it’s bleeding.
Does your friend have superior weaponry and the backing of major world powers? If no then he should probably live in peace in modern unified Italy.
Now imagine a civil war begins in the US. Both sides get too weak. And then the Cherokee, Apache, … receive all the military help they need from, let’s say, China. And they start killing “every non Nation person” because “that was our land”. Would you say that’s right and that all and every white/black/Asian person deserve it?
I’ll take “Imaginary things that will never happen” for $500 Alex.
By your logic, the Innocents killed on 9/11 brought it on themselves.
Well yea, to be fair if half these
RedditorsLemmies lived in the Middle East they would be calling for the genocide of the US after what happened in Afghanistan and IraqThe United States created the conditions for the blowback that resulted in the 9/11 attacks
selfawarewolf?
american war on taliban was the well accepted result. israels war on gazians… same.
Wow that is some amazing mental gymnastics there. I sure do hope you don’t strain yourself with all those logical fallacies you are jumping through.
The story doesn’t start on oct 7th.
But the current chapter does. Gaza would look a lot different today if the October 7th attack had not happened.
Shit it would look like a fucking paradise if they had taken one of the many two state solution deals they were offered.
This shit has been planned for a long time. Here’s just one example of the plan being shown out in the open before october 7th: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-brandishes-map-of-israel-that-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/
All they needed was a “justification” to ramp up their ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Maybe you shouldn’t talk shit
Oooo internet tough guy.
Oppression causes terrorism. Israel made Hamas. Why? Because Israel wants an excuse to escalate the conflict
Thats it, shut it down people, we’ve gone full circle. Israel is killing its own people by killing the people who want to kill them…
Your mental gymnastics deserve a gold medal for that performance.