I get this mentality as a threat to force Biden to take action before the election. I hope he does take action.
But if people recognize Trump as the significantly worse candidate, and don’t vote for Biden, then they are fully in support of Trump and whatever comes from his second term.
The girl mentioning that Trump will probably flatten Gaza and turn it into a golf course should recognize that her vote against Biden is a vote FOR this scenario.
Women lost their rights to their own bodies because of the 2016 election. What else can a Trump take from us?
Women lost their rights to their own bodies because of the 2016 election. What else can a Trump take from us?
Women, the LGBT community, immigrants, and ethnic minority communities have lost considerable ground in both public opinion and in legal rights, particularly at the state level. Loss of abortion rights at the national level. Loss of marriage equality. National level restrictions on the trans community. Just because we lost ground doesn’t mean there’s not more we will lose if they get Congress and the White House.
Exactly. I see a lot of liberals on here supporting the idea of not voting for Biden because of some ideological reasons, but this will only end in things becoming worse overall for us.
I hope Biden takes actions to stop the genocide in Gaza, but we need to recognize a lot of that is outside of Biden’s control. Israeli politics is a cluster, and blaming Biden for what is happening is not fair.
Trump moving the US embassy was a truly awful action that I’m sure contributed to where we are today. We’re going to bring that guy back in because events outside of Biden’s control happened on his watch?
Whats the point of a threat if everyone agrees it’s just a bluff? Saying people who don’t vote Biden are in full support of trump is victim blaming. The voters are disenfranchised, whose fault is that? When will it be safe to vote in a way that will force the dnc to change? You think if trump wasn’t the Republican candidate or during future elections it’s going to get any better? The Republican Party has the 2025 plan in play, so any candidate that needs money to run must play ball with that.
By your own admission people complaining that they are not going to vote Biden is the right thing to do, and yet here you are attempting to call their bluff.
No we can’t talk about Bidens broken promises and part making the US complicit in genocide. Its bad because of the election you see!
It’s not victim blaming. It’s reality! We have a 2 party system. If you don’t support one party, you are supporting the other party. It’s a shitty system, but it is the one we have.
You can either support the pro genocide democrat, or the pro genocide anti democracy anti women’s rights pro school shooter republican.
By your own admission people complaining that they are not going to vote Biden is the right thing to do, and yet here you are attempting to call their bluff.
I wouldn’t say I think it’s the right thing to do, I just get their mentality. And I hope for all our sakes it is a bluff because the last thing I want for our country is 4 more years of Trump.
Hopefully over the next 4 years these liberals stay active and continue to voice their concerns for the future of the Democratic Party and maybe we can have a real candidate when that time comes.
So, when will it be time to vote in a way to get representation? When it’s Harris v DeSantos?
I can also make statements like “a vote for Biden is a vote for the status quo”. Its victim blaming because it is not the voters fault for being conflicted. The Democratic Party and Biden has made voting for them difficult, and failed their campaign promises. If they want cohesion, they are the only ones who can achieve that.
I will still probably vote Biden next election, but i am thinking about it every single day. And you do not ducking help this dilemma throwing shade around. knowing people, as long as they can be distracted there will be no change. And maybe a trump victory is not so easily ignored.
So, when will it be time to vote in a way to get representation? When it’s Harris v DeSantos?
Like I said, I am hopeful the same people being loudly anti Biden right now spend the next 4 years being loud about what needs to change and who the next Democratic candidate should be. I hope they in 4 years we have a candidate that is actually good. Biden in 2020 seemed like a “safe” reaction to Trump, and unfortunately we are stuck with him this cycle too.
Its victim blaming because it is not the voters fault for being conflicted.
I totally get being conflicted, but at the end of the day, you have exactly TWO choices. Pointing out this basic fact about our election system is in no way “victim blaming”.
You can vote for Biden.
You can vote in a way that gets Trump elected and hope he doesn’t screw things up too bad and hope that the Democratic Party changes for the better as a result.
There are no other options. If you feel like this is shade being thrown around, it’s not. It is a basic fact that every liberal voter must accept.
Voting 3rd party/writing in something is not [1]. Not voting is also not [1]. Anything that is not [1] IS [2]
And maybe a trump victory is not so easily ignored.
This sounds a lot like democrats in 2016 that did not want to support Hillary Clinton. What did that loss earn us? Our potential 5-4 democratic Supreme Court majority was flipped into a 6-3 Republican majority. Include stripping away basic human rights. What will come of another Trump victory?
and failed their campaign promises
Ok, I’ll bite. What failed campaign promise? Every president has failed campaign promises, so I’m curious which ones are such a big deal as to allow Trump back into the White House.
You got me on the campaign promise thing. The only thing he really promised was that he was not trump, and i can’t say he didn’t deliver. A more correct statement is that he refuses to do what i need from the dnc and was one of the worst of the lot as a democratic candidate for his first presidency.
As for the 2016 Clinton debacle. Yes that did indeed more than suck. It is greatly distressing that the dnc didn’t take the hint. But it was not the disenfranchised voters fault the democrats lost that, the dnc was decidedly uninterested in appealing to their left leaning base. They thought, like you declare, that the voter has no real choice. Turns out, they did. That’s on the dnc and Clinton and we all are going to be paying for that for ever.
Saying that not voting for the dnc will ultimately help the republicans is not some secret or unknown. Bringing it up is wholly missing the point and a distraction. It will never ever change anyone’s hearts or make them forget our part in a genocide. Right now before the election it the time for people to air their grievances in the hope that the dnc will pull their head out of their assess. And you are stifling this process at all our peril.
And do you really believe that the dnc will change without leverage? Seems to me that just like the last forever times nothing will happen once the heats off. There is a threat that the dnc is losing the hearts of their base and it will cost them power. Next election they will just hold some other republicans as the bogey man and you will say the exact same thing.
In 2016, I would have kept quiet about the moral liberal who wanted to protest with their vote, or wanted to gamble with an unknown quantity (Trump) vs a known quantity (Clinton).
8 years later I am not going to sit around and listen to people make the same mistake. Does Biden suck? Yes. Is he as bad as Clinton? IMO, no! Would our country as well as the world be worse off with (at least) 4 more years of Trump? Absolutely!
You’re not going to change the DNC with a protest vote. Fact is, protest voting didn’t make a difference in 2016, and it won’t make a difference in 2024 either. It will only backfire spectacularly like it did in 2016.
And do you really believe that the dnc will change without leverage?
I don’t believe the DNC will change until actual progressives are elected. Ensuring Trump gets his 2nd/3rd term will not change the DNC. It will only make them panic and elect another “safe” candidate.
Next election they will just hold some other republicans as the bogey man and you will say the exact same thing.
If you are implying that Trump is just a “bogey man” that is being used to scare Democrats, that is just wrong. He is a known entity that has already done damage and has already promised more damage.
As for next time? I’m going to join forces with people like you and get behind whatever progressive democrat I believe can win. And if the DNC (voters) back Biden 2.0, I will vote for the lesser of 2 evils and hope and dream for a better 2032!
First of all, whether or not you are quiet makes no difference. You are not making an argument. You are stating an ultimatum and the part i have issue with is laying the blame of everything on those who do not vote as you do. That blame rests squarely on the dnc for not compromising with their base.
If the dnc will not change to maintain a cohesive voting block, then they might lose power, and not being relevant is a choice i guess. Either there will be enough disenfranchised voters or there won’t be. If they refuse to learn the lesson they were so soundly taught in 2016, then so be it.
By saying trump is a bogey man, i am not saying that he is harmless. I am saying that he is held as so terrible by the dnc that they have told their base that they have no choice but to vote for their pro establishment right wing candidates so they can enrich themselves more, or else we get the trump again. It’s what you buy into when you blame trump winning and everything he did on the frustrated voter who does not step in line. And when trump dies, there will be another person just as evil but not as stupid as trump in the next election to force the exact same candidate choice on us. Thats the dnc’s choice.
I also do not believe you about voting for a more progressive candidate next time. Why? Because on the result of this primary, you are already throwing blame on disenfranchised voters for not falling in line, on a vote that did nothing but show the dnc how the left feel about Biden. You are using your ultimatum to silence people who are putting forward legitimate grievances months before the vote.
So yea i think you are lying. But it’s your vote so, what ever. What happens next is up to the dnc, not either of us.
I’m not “blaming” anybody. If you are ok with “sending a message to the DNC” BY electing Trump again, that is your prerogative. But don’t act like there are more than 2 options this election cycle. There’s not. Trump wins, or Biden wins. Periodt.
I personally believe Trump would be willing to spend 4 years dismantling the democracy we have and putting in its place something like what Russia has. In addition to further damaging the rights of women (of all ages) and the LGBTQ community. He has already attempted to overthrow the government once. Giving him another election win will only make him feel even more empowered.
I don’t honestly care if you believe me or not, but I have never supported Clinton or Biden in the primaries, and I would never support anybody like them in the future. The primaries and main election are 2 different things. And there has never been a candidate like Trump before, so my actions now have nothing to do with my actions before or in the future.
Lastly, I’m not silencing anybody! You can give out your grievances all you want. March in the streets, hold up signs, give speeches, create tik toks… whatever you want. But if you think protest voting is the way you’re going to “change the DNC”, then you MUST accept the consequences of that. Those being, Trump WILL win and zero change will come to the DNC.
If you think this is vote shaming or blaming, it is not! It is pointing out the consequences of someone’s actions. If pointing out the consequences makes you feel defensive, then maybe the actions are a problem. If you feel that the consequences are acceptable, then there is nothing wrong with the actions and there’s no need to complain about somebody pointing them out to you.
I just don’t understand why people think that electing more Republicans would be an improvement. It’s a binary choice. Giving the GOP more power does nothing to change the internal politics of the Democratic Party. There are better ways to get Democrats to respond to what their voters want. We have absolute shit participation in primaries, that’s why these corporate goons get to call all the Democrats shots. We should be swarming every moderate during primaries and attacking local elections as hard as possible.
You don’t have to agree with everything the Democrats do to recognize it’s a strategic imperative that they win against the GOP.
They must win in November. They must do more to address cost of living, housing, abortion, Gaza, money in politics, etc. Both can be true.
If you consider yourself a liberal, you have 2 options here. Trump, or not Trump. If you are voting for anybody other than Biden (or not voting at all), you are voting FOR Trump.
You think Biden is a pro genocide democrat, great, then support the anti democratic and pro genocide republican candidate and we’ll see what happens.
Vote shaming or not, it is reality. If 2016 is not a lesson for liberals, then we might as well quit caring entirely and just give up whatever rights and freedoms we claim to value.
Remember when liberals almost had a 5-4 Supreme Court majority, but instead we have a 6-3 republican majority? Let’s see what a 7-2 republican majority looks like 4 years from now.
Sure, and you are actively voting for genocide. You are complicit.
It doesn’t work that way because Trump, Biden AND 3rd party are all votes FOR genocide. There is no way that you can vote AGAINST genocide this election cycle.
but it’s important to understand that Biden is not a stop gap, he’s not the lesser of two evils, he does not represent a force in opposition the fascism or a “chance to turn things around down the road”
…
I’ll just say that I disagree with most of what you said after this. Biden IS the lesser of 2 evils, and I believe we can make progress both through Biden and in 4 years when the slate is wiped clean.
I get that you disagree, and that’s fine, but your take sounds like a nihilistic view that we must burn down the house so we can rebuild anew (hundreds of years later).
To me, that’s a very depressing outlook that tells me that yes, we should just give up caring.
I get this mentality as a threat to force Biden to take action before the election. I hope he does take action.
But if people recognize Trump as the significantly worse candidate, and don’t vote for Biden, then they are fully in support of Trump and whatever comes from his second term.
The girl mentioning that Trump will probably flatten Gaza and turn it into a golf course should recognize that her vote against Biden is a vote FOR this scenario.
Women lost their rights to their own bodies because of the 2016 election. What else can a Trump take from us?
Women, the LGBT community, immigrants, and ethnic minority communities have lost considerable ground in both public opinion and in legal rights, particularly at the state level. Loss of abortion rights at the national level. Loss of marriage equality. National level restrictions on the trans community. Just because we lost ground doesn’t mean there’s not more we will lose if they get Congress and the White House.
Exactly. I see a lot of liberals on here supporting the idea of not voting for Biden because of some ideological reasons, but this will only end in things becoming worse overall for us.
I guess Biden better kick it up a few notches then to earn more votes than Trump.
I hope Biden takes actions to stop the genocide in Gaza, but we need to recognize a lot of that is outside of Biden’s control. Israeli politics is a cluster, and blaming Biden for what is happening is not fair.
Trump moving the US embassy was a truly awful action that I’m sure contributed to where we are today. We’re going to bring that guy back in because events outside of Biden’s control happened on his watch?
yeah because trump has already earned a lot of votes???
Whats the point of a threat if everyone agrees it’s just a bluff? Saying people who don’t vote Biden are in full support of trump is victim blaming. The voters are disenfranchised, whose fault is that? When will it be safe to vote in a way that will force the dnc to change? You think if trump wasn’t the Republican candidate or during future elections it’s going to get any better? The Republican Party has the 2025 plan in play, so any candidate that needs money to run must play ball with that.
By your own admission people complaining that they are not going to vote Biden is the right thing to do, and yet here you are attempting to call their bluff.
No we can’t talk about Bidens broken promises and part making the US complicit in genocide. Its bad because of the election you see!
It’s not victim blaming. It’s reality! We have a 2 party system. If you don’t support one party, you are supporting the other party. It’s a shitty system, but it is the one we have.
You can either support the pro genocide democrat, or the pro genocide anti democracy anti women’s rights pro school shooter republican.
I wouldn’t say I think it’s the right thing to do, I just get their mentality. And I hope for all our sakes it is a bluff because the last thing I want for our country is 4 more years of Trump.
Hopefully over the next 4 years these liberals stay active and continue to voice their concerns for the future of the Democratic Party and maybe we can have a real candidate when that time comes.
So, when will it be time to vote in a way to get representation? When it’s Harris v DeSantos?
I can also make statements like “a vote for Biden is a vote for the status quo”. Its victim blaming because it is not the voters fault for being conflicted. The Democratic Party and Biden has made voting for them difficult, and failed their campaign promises. If they want cohesion, they are the only ones who can achieve that.
I will still probably vote Biden next election, but i am thinking about it every single day. And you do not ducking help this dilemma throwing shade around. knowing people, as long as they can be distracted there will be no change. And maybe a trump victory is not so easily ignored.
Like I said, I am hopeful the same people being loudly anti Biden right now spend the next 4 years being loud about what needs to change and who the next Democratic candidate should be. I hope they in 4 years we have a candidate that is actually good. Biden in 2020 seemed like a “safe” reaction to Trump, and unfortunately we are stuck with him this cycle too.
I totally get being conflicted, but at the end of the day, you have exactly TWO choices. Pointing out this basic fact about our election system is in no way “victim blaming”.
There are no other options. If you feel like this is shade being thrown around, it’s not. It is a basic fact that every liberal voter must accept.
Voting 3rd party/writing in something is not [1]. Not voting is also not [1]. Anything that is not [1] IS [2]
This sounds a lot like democrats in 2016 that did not want to support Hillary Clinton. What did that loss earn us? Our potential 5-4 democratic Supreme Court majority was flipped into a 6-3 Republican majority. Include stripping away basic human rights. What will come of another Trump victory?
Ok, I’ll bite. What failed campaign promise? Every president has failed campaign promises, so I’m curious which ones are such a big deal as to allow Trump back into the White House.
You got me on the campaign promise thing. The only thing he really promised was that he was not trump, and i can’t say he didn’t deliver. A more correct statement is that he refuses to do what i need from the dnc and was one of the worst of the lot as a democratic candidate for his first presidency.
As for the 2016 Clinton debacle. Yes that did indeed more than suck. It is greatly distressing that the dnc didn’t take the hint. But it was not the disenfranchised voters fault the democrats lost that, the dnc was decidedly uninterested in appealing to their left leaning base. They thought, like you declare, that the voter has no real choice. Turns out, they did. That’s on the dnc and Clinton and we all are going to be paying for that for ever.
Saying that not voting for the dnc will ultimately help the republicans is not some secret or unknown. Bringing it up is wholly missing the point and a distraction. It will never ever change anyone’s hearts or make them forget our part in a genocide. Right now before the election it the time for people to air their grievances in the hope that the dnc will pull their head out of their assess. And you are stifling this process at all our peril.
And do you really believe that the dnc will change without leverage? Seems to me that just like the last forever times nothing will happen once the heats off. There is a threat that the dnc is losing the hearts of their base and it will cost them power. Next election they will just hold some other republicans as the bogey man and you will say the exact same thing.
In 2016, I would have kept quiet about the moral liberal who wanted to protest with their vote, or wanted to gamble with an unknown quantity (Trump) vs a known quantity (Clinton).
8 years later I am not going to sit around and listen to people make the same mistake. Does Biden suck? Yes. Is he as bad as Clinton? IMO, no! Would our country as well as the world be worse off with (at least) 4 more years of Trump? Absolutely!
You’re not going to change the DNC with a protest vote. Fact is, protest voting didn’t make a difference in 2016, and it won’t make a difference in 2024 either. It will only backfire spectacularly like it did in 2016.
I don’t believe the DNC will change until actual progressives are elected. Ensuring Trump gets his 2nd/3rd term will not change the DNC. It will only make them panic and elect another “safe” candidate.
If you are implying that Trump is just a “bogey man” that is being used to scare Democrats, that is just wrong. He is a known entity that has already done damage and has already promised more damage.
As for next time? I’m going to join forces with people like you and get behind whatever progressive democrat I believe can win. And if the DNC (voters) back Biden 2.0, I will vote for the lesser of 2 evils and hope and dream for a better 2032!
First of all, whether or not you are quiet makes no difference. You are not making an argument. You are stating an ultimatum and the part i have issue with is laying the blame of everything on those who do not vote as you do. That blame rests squarely on the dnc for not compromising with their base.
If the dnc will not change to maintain a cohesive voting block, then they might lose power, and not being relevant is a choice i guess. Either there will be enough disenfranchised voters or there won’t be. If they refuse to learn the lesson they were so soundly taught in 2016, then so be it.
By saying trump is a bogey man, i am not saying that he is harmless. I am saying that he is held as so terrible by the dnc that they have told their base that they have no choice but to vote for their pro establishment right wing candidates so they can enrich themselves more, or else we get the trump again. It’s what you buy into when you blame trump winning and everything he did on the frustrated voter who does not step in line. And when trump dies, there will be another person just as evil but not as stupid as trump in the next election to force the exact same candidate choice on us. Thats the dnc’s choice.
I also do not believe you about voting for a more progressive candidate next time. Why? Because on the result of this primary, you are already throwing blame on disenfranchised voters for not falling in line, on a vote that did nothing but show the dnc how the left feel about Biden. You are using your ultimatum to silence people who are putting forward legitimate grievances months before the vote.
So yea i think you are lying. But it’s your vote so, what ever. What happens next is up to the dnc, not either of us.
I’m not “blaming” anybody. If you are ok with “sending a message to the DNC” BY electing Trump again, that is your prerogative. But don’t act like there are more than 2 options this election cycle. There’s not. Trump wins, or Biden wins. Periodt.
I personally believe Trump would be willing to spend 4 years dismantling the democracy we have and putting in its place something like what Russia has. In addition to further damaging the rights of women (of all ages) and the LGBTQ community. He has already attempted to overthrow the government once. Giving him another election win will only make him feel even more empowered.
I don’t honestly care if you believe me or not, but I have never supported Clinton or Biden in the primaries, and I would never support anybody like them in the future. The primaries and main election are 2 different things. And there has never been a candidate like Trump before, so my actions now have nothing to do with my actions before or in the future.
Lastly, I’m not silencing anybody! You can give out your grievances all you want. March in the streets, hold up signs, give speeches, create tik toks… whatever you want. But if you think protest voting is the way you’re going to “change the DNC”, then you MUST accept the consequences of that. Those being, Trump WILL win and zero change will come to the DNC.
If you think this is vote shaming or blaming, it is not! It is pointing out the consequences of someone’s actions. If pointing out the consequences makes you feel defensive, then maybe the actions are a problem. If you feel that the consequences are acceptable, then there is nothing wrong with the actions and there’s no need to complain about somebody pointing them out to you.
I just don’t understand why people think that electing more Republicans would be an improvement. It’s a binary choice. Giving the GOP more power does nothing to change the internal politics of the Democratic Party. There are better ways to get Democrats to respond to what their voters want. We have absolute shit participation in primaries, that’s why these corporate goons get to call all the Democrats shots. We should be swarming every moderate during primaries and attacking local elections as hard as possible.
You don’t have to agree with everything the Democrats do to recognize it’s a strategic imperative that they win against the GOP.
They must win in November. They must do more to address cost of living, housing, abortion, Gaza, money in politics, etc. Both can be true.
deleted by creator
If you consider yourself a liberal, you have 2 options here. Trump, or not Trump. If you are voting for anybody other than Biden (or not voting at all), you are voting FOR Trump.
You think Biden is a pro genocide democrat, great, then support the anti democratic and pro genocide republican candidate and we’ll see what happens.
Vote shaming or not, it is reality. If 2016 is not a lesson for liberals, then we might as well quit caring entirely and just give up whatever rights and freedoms we claim to value.
Remember when liberals almost had a 5-4 Supreme Court majority, but instead we have a 6-3 republican majority? Let’s see what a 7-2 republican majority looks like 4 years from now.
deleted by creator
It doesn’t work that way because Trump, Biden AND 3rd party are all votes FOR genocide. There is no way that you can vote AGAINST genocide this election cycle.
I’ll just say that I disagree with most of what you said after this. Biden IS the lesser of 2 evils, and I believe we can make progress both through Biden and in 4 years when the slate is wiped clean.
I get that you disagree, and that’s fine, but your take sounds like a nihilistic view that we must burn down the house so we can rebuild anew (hundreds of years later).
To me, that’s a very depressing outlook that tells me that yes, we should just give up caring.