Ickplant I feel bad for you. You keep trying to make wholesome posts but you end inadvertently triggering discourse. First pit bull discourse and now hijab discourse.
Edit: Comments are reopened.
An incredibly moving moment that this person will never forget. 💜
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Love to be a normal, well-adjusted person having normal, well-adjusted thoughts.
Seriously…. Who downvotes this??? Such a wholesome share!
Transphobic people.
AND islamophobic people.
I imagine the downvoters assume the post is making a point about Muslims in general, which it isn’t.
It isn’t Islamophobic thinking Muslims are transphobic, they are. Much like most of the world outside the West.
“most of the world outside the West”.
Is this trans friendly West in the room with us currently?
Also countries like Thailand are culturally much more advanced on Trans acceptance.
Westerners are transphobic.
If you wanna make broad generalizations about large groups of people with diverse beliefs, you don’t get to turn around and exclude another group from broad generalizations just because you’re included in it.
Just wanna add in case people haven’t encountered these nuanced interactions: my cousin and her husband are both atheists that think being gay is a choice and trans people are mentally ill. Religious beliefs or lack thereof don’t guarantee someone will be ethically or morally upstanding
No. People who don’t think sexist religious conservative values should be applauded. This is basically orphan crushing machine material
.
Liberal value = giving women the choice to decide whether or not they want to wear religious dress.
Anti-liberal value = removing that choice from them.
It’s pretty straightforward. Freedom of choice has always been the liberal way.
No one’s talking about removing choice. But not all choices are equally valid. And many choices are coerced due to religious patriarchal structures which are not actually true choices
You could also frame it as liberals being on the side of religious freedom, though, which might include this shit, and which women might partake in voluntarily as it’s a part of them practicing their faith. There’s not really a lot of oppression that comes about as a result of wearing the headdress alone as like, a kind of stylistic or ritual choice, it’s most everything else that goes along with it, that entails the oppression.
It’s more complex than lib vs non lib, or, freedom vs non freedom. Freedom can’t be the highest value, there, there has to be something more at the core there. Freedom is usually just a proxy for whatever other value you’re implicitly substituting. One person says, I need the freedom to have my guns, for self protection. Another person, they say they want the ability to be free from a society in which gun ownership is seen as necessary for self-defense, or is common. You hear boo boo platitudes like “my freedom ends where yours begins” and shit like that as an attempt to cope with it, but it’s totally meaningless. There has to be a core value there.
In this case, the core value is basically just the belief that islam is a false religion, and is bigoted and oppressive. Possibly correct for many muslims, perhaps the majority, but still, would be a generalization, and would still be based on a very specific reading of the text, just like it is with christianity, or extremist violent folk buddhism that people in the west don’t usually get exposed to, or, hinduism, which is where the basis for their caste system comes from.
The idiocy, I think, so far as I see it, is that they decry the religion itself, because they see it as all being the same, rather than decrying this or that specific practice as being bigoted. Not even the hijab necessarily, but like, the patriarchal aspects. Much harder to decry these on the basis of the religions themselves if you’re not versed in the religions themselves, too, which is a pretty hard sticking point.
In any case, it’s sort of like, people decrying christianity at large as being shitty when realistically they just mean like, evangelicals, or catholics, or mormons, or jehovah’s witnesses, or maybe in some odd cases, quakers and mennonites. But then they don’t realize it also entails liberation theology, rastafarianism, the ethiopian church, or even just small unaffiliated churches, and shit like that. Smaller in number than the oppressive megachurches, and still exist within an overarching system in which religion is kind of oppressive, but still, I think, retains some value as a cultural or ritualistic practice, and retains it’s link to history and tradition, which, despite, you know, the common post-historical liberal cries, you know, the idea that the west is post-enlightenment, we have no need for tradition, yadda yadda, is still something that people find really appealing. We still see that with people wanting to return to some idealized version of the 50’s that never existed where everyone was able to afford a suburban home and 2.5 kids, without understanding that those things were not available for everyone, weren’t sustainable, your wife was on opioids, you worked a 9-5 in a steel mill, your kids went either unsupervised or helicopter parented every day, and the indoors were full of smoke while the outside was full of leaded gasoline fumes. The appeal to tradition, to belonging as part of an in-group, is extremely powerful, even if it doesn’t tangibly exist for someone in physical reality. It’s escapism, but it’s escapism through which someone travels with it back into the real world, a changed person.
That’s all to say. Uhh. Yeah, islamophobia is bad, probably. The middle east is still pretty fucked up. So is the west, which is mostly not much better, despite the cries in opposition. Our freedom loving leader, their despotic dictator, etc. I’m sure liberating all that oil from iraq and killing a million people helped that one out plenty, helped them be more progressive, helped civilize them, right? I’m sure the like. US foreign intervention and fucking with the arab spring really helped everything out. I think it’s libya or syria that still hasn’t recovered, right? Don’t know. This video goes out to the brave mujahideen fighters, is what I’m saying.
Yeah. Accept Muslims and support their rights. But fuck the hijab. No one should wear that sexist trash.
Nothing speaks for women rights like banning and harassing women who want to wear a peace of clothing.
If you actually talked with hijabi women you would know that most of them choose to wear hijab and are very much not opressed. But the white liberal understands solidarity through white supremacy where he knows what is better for everyone else.
Imagine saying “support Jews ans their rights but fuck the kosha rules. No one should be kept from eating pork.”
If you really want to support Muslims and their rights, then talk with them and don’t let white supremacist propaganda shape your idea of what you want to support.
There isn’t much analogy with kosher practices. Do you know the explicit religious purpose of the hijab? It’s to maintain one’s modesty so as not to tempt men. Fuck that. Men are responsible for their own behavior. The religious purpose of the hijab is straightforward victim-blaming sexism. I won’t support a conservative, backward, oppressive practice just because it’s done by a member of a persecuted religious minority. That’s not white supremacism, that’s a basic commitment to progressive values.
I’m not saying we should ban it. In a free society people should be able to wear what they want. But we absolutely should not support it either.
You don’t have to support it. You just have to shut the fuck up about what other people choose to wear.
Do you support high heels? Makeup? The stereotype of women wearing dresses usually, that social standard, that gender norm? It’s not as though lots of things in western society aren’t basically on the same level, or don’t basically stem out of the same set of things, set of religious oppression. The problem isn’t the opposition to those things, it’s the double standard, it’s seeing the muslim version of oppression as being unique because it’s unfamiliar and alien.
I did not know Jewish men are allowed to eat pork.
No, it isn’t.
You can upload literally anything on this site and it’ll be downvoted. Sometimes even for the content, usually just because creeps will go back through your history and downvote everything you’ve posted for a week or two.
I’m not worried about it, though.
I apologize for the downvote. I agree with you, it just felt like the right thing to do. :p
That’s what happens when you mention downvotes. It primes people mentally to do it. The good news is these are completely meaningless internet points.
Cool
Yep. It happens to me pretty much daily on an alt. And although I know who’s doing it- there’s not a mod willing to do anything about it.
Because it didn’t happen.
You were there? It’d go a long way were you to provide proof.
Lmao, Christian logic. PrOvE it dIDnT HaPpEN. 🤪
Who hurt you, and why is it our fault?
How is some meme forum relevant to who has the burden of proof?
How is a Wikipedia page relevant to a nice story someone shared?
You were there? It’d go a long way were you to provide proof.
The wiki page is a famous illustration of how it’s absurd to put the burden of proof on the people who are disapproving and it should always fall on people making the claim.
Despite your down votes I agree with you. I’m always conflicted about voting on something that appears to be clearly deceiving so usually I abstain from voting entirely but someone who cares more about this can easily justify a down-vote.
Fuck religion that even makes this gesture possible
Fuck people that want to tell women what not to wear. You are doing the same like those forcing a hijab.
Most women choose to wear hijab and are defending the right to do so.
Nobody here is telling women what not to wear though. “You are doing the same like thlse forcing a hijab?” jose1324 isn’t killing people for wearing them
By saying “fuck that this gesture is possible” the conclusion is that it shouldn’t, which means that women wouldn’t wear hijab in the first place. But as they choose to do so, that means infringing on their choice.
And it should be very telling that in places like Iran women face repression if they want to not wear hijab, and the western countries working towards the opposite sentiment of repression for wearing hijab.
No, nothing about what Jose said implies that they wouldn’t want women to be allowed to wear a hijab. This gesture is possible because Islam forces women to keep their head covered when they’re around men. If they were allowed to uncover their head around men, then this gesture would hold no weight.
in places like Iran women face repression if they want to not wear hijab, and the western countries working towards the opposite sentiment of repression for wearing hijab.
Stop making these stupid comparisons. Iran imprisons women if they choose not to wear hijabs. Western countries offer women the option not to.
There is bans of hijabs in many places. A few years back France infamously banned wearing them to the beaches and arrested women for refusing it.
Earlier this month a women in Germany was banned from court service for refusing to take of her hijab. The EU court ruled that banning women from wearing scarfes in the work place is legal, if it is embedded in a “neutrality policy”
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/24/muslim-women-struggle-with-germanys-hijab-ban-in-workplaces
It is not on the same level like in Iran, but as i said they are moving towards it, step by step.
Fuck right off. Not being allowed on a beach or to work in jobs that necessitate no favor towards any particular groups is not the same as being fucking tortured and imprisoned.
Which i never said. But this is the direction we are heading, if we don’t stop it know. If you take a care to look at history you will see that repression never was just flipped on and off. It is always a gradual shift and it needs to be stopped in the beginning and every increase of repressions need to be seen in the context that there is a threat of it worsening. And oh boy will it be worsening with the current traction of fascist and far right politicians in the West.
This is the same reason why we need to defend all marginalized groups and their rights and not be selective. If it becomes more okay to repress Muslims more, it will become more okay to repress LGBT more again. It will become more okay to repress Black and Brown people more again and it will become more okay to repress Jewish people more again.
Not to mention that… Muslim women go to the beach and Muslim women do work. I’m speaking generally, of course.
Secular state is as bad as theocratic state, gotcha, hope you’ll get your gold medal this summer.
If secular doesn’t mean to separate state and religion but to suppress freedom of religion then absolutely yes. Because a theocratic state is doing just the same.
Also it is always ironic when states claim to be “secular” while having christian holidays as public holidays because “culture”.
Ah yes, the many beatings of women wearing hijab in the western world, truly horrific
It’s impressive how you turned this to be my fault lmao. Fuck you man, I don’t decide what people want to wear. Go take a hike
“Choose” is a very loaded word here. Yes, technically, they have a choice between wearing a hijab and an alternative, but what is that alternative? For someone in a conservative Muslim community, there is an extreme stigma against choosing not to wear a hijab, so it’s a choice between wearing one or being shunned. If it’s a theocratic country, it’s a choice between wearing one and death. Yes, technically a choice, but no more of a choice than being robbed at gunpoint and “choosing” to empty your pockets to not be shot in the head.
Choice under the threat of violence is no choice at all. Indistinguishable from authoritarian barbarism.
Thank you. And those who continue to don such symbols of oppression when they do have a real choice are choosing to express violence against their subjugated peers.
There’s a reason why every free society rejects universal dress codes, and I for one will choose to stand again them whether they are for church or middle school.
Most women choose to wear hijab and are defending the right to do so.
In democracies (and absence of family pressure) maybe, but in most of the world, I doubt it.
And you know that because you spoke with so many of these women, or you know that because you think being from a white western country entitles you to know best for everyone in the world?
Because I spoke with some of them, lived in different countries and my readings are not limited to information about my place of origin. What about you, do you come from a place that lets you know better about the world than mine, or your argument about having knowledge limited to your origin doesn’t apply to you?
How many non-muslimic women wear hijabs because they like to?
How would one even get the idea to wear a hijab at all if it weren’t for religion?
My grandmother would always wear a scarf covering her hair and she wasn’t religious.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_European_headscarf
Umm. Wut?
That’s not a hijab. Please stop.
That shows how ignorant you all are. Anything that covers the hair and neck is a hijab. You all delude yourself into believing it is some special kind of garnment or some special way it has to be put on. And that is because it has to fit your narrative of what you believe muslims are or how muslims life, with a lot of white supremacy sprinkled on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab
In modern usage, hijab (Arabic: حجاب, romanized: ḥijāb, pronounced [ħɪˈdʒaːb]) generally refers to various head coverings conventionally worn by many Muslim women.[1][2] It is similar to the tichel or snood worn by Orthodox Jewish women, certain headcoverings worn by some Christian women, such as the mantilla, apostolnik and wimple,[3][4] and the dupatta worn by many Hindu and Sikh women.[5][6][7] Whilst a hijab can come in many forms, it often specifically refers to a scarf wrapped around the head, covering the hair, neck and ears but leaving the face visible.
Literally the first picture in the Wikipedia Article shows a women with her Hijab in a style that you could find women in eastern Europe to wear too.
You don’t need to speak to a slave to know slavery is wrong.
They’re supposed to mirror Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (pbut). She wore a hijab.
Shouldn’t the freedoms of women and education of men have evolved in 2000 years?
Everyone can still wear a scarves on their heads. Believe it or not it’s not a new or exclusively religious article of clothing.
Any scarve that covers the hair is considered a hijab. There is no special scarve for a hijab and hijabs can take all shapes, colors and patterns.
Their purpose is not the same.
And who can judge about the purpose? And who has the right to judge about the purpose? And who has the right to arbitrarily forbid the one and embrace the other over his perception of the purpose?
It all boils down to white people, in particular white men thinking they are superior to muslim women and they get to decide what is best for them. That is deeply ingrained racism.
Funny how suddenly iranian women can become white people. Funny how suddenly turkish people can be white people. Just keep playing the victim.
Would they choose to wear a hijab if that religion did not exist? Looking at the rest of the world, the answer is a resounding “no.”
https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/veil-wearing-tradition-0017535
https://daily.jstor.org/the-power-of-the-veil-for-spanish-women/
I am sorry, but please educate yourself before making such nonsensical statements. Veiling has been a part of culture and religion outside of Islam for millennia. And if you look at the second source, you’ll see that veiling also has been a mean of liberation and that banning it is part of a long history of oppressing women
has been
Enough said I guess.
👌
I imagine because in, “civilized” nations… women are just sexual objects. Watch the ads, the movies, the cartoons, the magazines… all industries pertaining to women are sexualized. You must do this, that, wear this, that in order to be acceptable.
I like how you wrote “civilized” as if I made some comment disparaging primarily Muslim nations. By “the rest of the world”, I simply meant those who aren’t pressured by their culture to wear head scarves.
Actually, I believe Muslim majority nations are more civilized than civilizations with Democracy. Democracy ultimately divides and creates disgruntled citizens. I quoted civilized in my initial comment as a sarcasm.
The flak you’re getting for this is bizarre. There are tons of women who wear a hijab by choice. It’s self expression, hell people even do pinups/porn in them so it’s not like the religious association is absolute or binding.
Women should not be forced to wear a hijab, but they also shouldn’t be forced not to. Feminism is about choice, the choice between embracing traditional roles and rules or eschewing them with equal acceptance.
Articles from women who choose to wear a hijab:
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-right-to-choose-to-wear-or-not-hijab/
https://www.aclu.org/documents/discrimination-against-muslim-women-fact-sheet
I’d cry
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This reminds me of Japan. I’ve not confirmed this myself, but it jives with my understanding of the culture. Binary trans people are generally less ‘disruptive’ to society and less of a perceived ‘problem’ to the mainstream because hey we can fit you into a box and its associated social roles. They really like their boxes and roles. But if you are queer in other more visible ways, like gay people trying to get married or be accepted socially, then that gets frowned upon for upsetting the apple cart.
Because the apple can’t identify as orange
hah, funny, in Dutch the literal translation of orange is Chinese apple. Curious 🧐
Same in German kind of. Maybe oranges can identify as apples but not the other way around?
Why do I care what the apple identifies as? I’m also not shaming people that are clearly stupid and claim they have a brain and the intelligence that goes with it.
It is indeed interesting. Because in the end… sexual intercourse with the booty is still a high tier sin in Islam. Even if the couple is heterosexual.
Forgive my ignorance but can anyone explain what happened in this interraction?
It would be against Islam for a woman to show herself (without a head covering) to a man she wasn’t married/related to. This isn’t true for woman and other woman. This person is trans and their friend treated them, through religious tradition, that she accepts her friend as a woman.
Which means, in effect, that their friend is saying “My belief that you are truly a woman is at least as strong as my belief in my god,” which is an incredibly powerful way to validate someone’s identity.
“male attendants with no desire” are also accepted, although I suspect that refers to eunuchs.
depends on the reading, I think, could also refer to gay dudes.
And bears, although there’s some overlap there.
Technically gay men.
Which is why it didn’t happen lol, especially when the religion and culture is very anti trans.
A wholesome exchange based on the intersection of trans acceptance and religious misogyny!
A trans person is claiming that a woman excepts said trans person as a woman.
I wonder what her Imam would say to that. I haven’t heard of a Muslim sect that accepts transgender people under their chosen gender. But maybe they are out there, if anyone knows of one I’d like to know more.
In Iran, gender reassignment is legal, and they’ll even change the birth certificate to match, from what I learned a decade ago.
Homosexuality, however, is a capital offense, so many gay people are pressured to transition.
Some conservative societies seem to have the attitude that it’s better to go from one role with rigid expectations to another than it is to fail to meet the expectations of your original role.
many gay people are pressured to transition
Made me imagine the awkward situation where two gay people transitioned to be able to legally find a match, and found each other.
They had the same thing going here in Apartheid-South Africa.
Oh I see, I did not expect that. Thank you!
I wonder what her Imam would say to that.
Heaven forbid… are you implying that Muslim people perhaps aren’t a brainwashed monolith that simply accepts anything spoken by those in authority?
Say it isn’t so!
I’m not sure in which direction your sarcasm is actually going there.
I wouldn’t say they are a monolith, with all those different sects and the fatwas where you basically have to choose which person or group of muftis you trust to issue binding ones.
On the point of brainwashing… well depends on how you define it, I’d say. I think all Religion at its core is supposed to influence your thinking profoundly and most religious people are brought up into their belief system. What is just socialisation and what is brainwashing I don’t know how to distinguish.
Not an expert but for one example you could read the story of Maryam Khatoon Molkara https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Khatoon_Molkara
Very interesting, thank you
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Nothing ever happens
Especially this reply right now that currently isn’t happening
I didn’t see nuthin’
Absolutely loving this comment-chain.
What comment chain? 👀 /j
There ain’t no comment chain and there never was.
I can’t figure out which part of this story you doubt so I have to assume you’ve never met a trans person or a Muslim.
Probably that a Muslim can both be open to trans people and wear a hijab at the same time.
Tbh is much easier to reconcile than you’d think.
Stop destroying prejudices against Muslims! How can you show them to be self confident and intelligent people that don’t need a white savior to explain the world to them?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m still very against conservative Muslims, as much as I am against conservative Christians, ultra-orthodox Jews etc…
But it’s clear that there’s nuance, so like one can be a Christian and also be accepting of gays and trans people, one can be the same while believing in Islam. The ones I can’t stand are those that use their preferred book to put themselves on a pedestal and be terrible to other people, but this trait is not limited to one specific religion, or even to religion itself.
So in other words, we are people like everyone else.
Right, so they’ve never met a Muslim person (or I guess only met the much more rare ultra conservative kind)
Half of my family is Muslim. I’m currently partnered with the trans alliance in my city to build their new housing co-op… I’m well versed in both sides of this and what’s stated above didn’t happen LoL. It’s a fairytale or as known in the Muslim community… teqqiyah.
Crazy how you want me to believe your story and not theirs
This isn’t too far fetched. I recently saw a video of a woman who is Muslim explaining why she personally wouldn’t take her hijab off in front of a trans woman. Which is the opposite of the op story
BUT… it’s obvious that figuring out how trans women fit into their religious beliefs would be a discussion among Muslim women. Just like Christianity, there are going to be different interpretations, person to person even, of what is ok and not. Seems to me like this would actually be a really easy way for a woman to show her support to a friend.
My op was removed LoL. I guess you’re not allowed to introduce reality into these fairytales. Half of my family is Muslim, this is absolutely a fairytale LMFAO.
“Me and half my family are transphobic”.
No idea how you’re proud of making that statement, that’s just sad.
You’re not happening.
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Imagine viewing a post from a “wholesome” community only to make sure everyone knew you rolled* your eyes.
If I can’t have solidarity no one can. The problem is you buddy.
This users comments seem to have a habit of turning into a “.”
Weird, so here’s their comment preserved
Wow they sure are a chicken shit with the consequences of their comments.
Well, most of them appear to have a favorable rating so I don’t know about that.
Either it’s a privacy thing or they’re posting propaganda of some sort and then once they’ve reached enough people they edit the comment.
I’m choosing to go with the former. Not because I agree with their comment (don’t know where I stand on the issue, just know it isn’t my business), but because lemmy seems to be a place where users value privacy.
Edit: Holy shit I’m a liar. I don’t what I was seeing a few minutes ago. I was dead wrong.
.
So, in this scenario you’re the hammer and everything looks like a nail?
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That’s a beautiful story. Love it.
And everyone in the coffee shop stood up and applauded, i.e., this never happened.
You might want to work on your reading comprehension.
What aspect of this story seems constructed or unbelievable to you?
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nothing ever happens
Love it!!!
Things that didn’t happen for $100, Ryan.
Who the fuck is Ryan
I dunno it was just a random name. Guess I should have kept it more uniform by using, “Alex” instead.
Sounds made up.
