The far-left people actively saying “Don’t vote for Dem” making an easier win for Trump are probably the most stupid people of the bunch.
Revolution is not happening anytime soon, meanwhile let’s do something with what we have.
What if I told you that ‘building a foundation for the party’ wasn’t the true intention, but actually to sow discord and chaos in a hope to weaken a perceived “enemy”?
I like the sentiment and suggest taking it a step further.
If they aren’t starting at the local level then they aren’t serious about the national level regardless of when they start discussing the next election.
I’d have a lot more respect if there was a third party candidate running for my district’s house seat.
That would mean they’re actually trying to build election infrastructure.
Running for office costs lots of money and time. There are seats that go entirely uncontested, because the incumbent is too popular to challenge. I would love to see a 50-state Green strategy, too. I just don’t know who the 500+ candidates are supposed to be.
That would mean they’re actually trying to build election infrastructure.
I’m not sure where this “Greens never try to build anything” theory of politics came from. But if you think partisanship is savage at the national level, wait till you try and run as a Green candidate for municipal office. Talking about bike lanes in the wrong kind of county gets a certain kind of person shooting mad.
City elections are a mess on a good day, and a lot of it really boils down to which person the Mega-Church, the Millionaires, and the Morning Zoo Crew decide to endorse.
Local government is fucking awful. Think of an HOA and then make them accountable to the whiniest assholes in town. Just watch any footage of local meetings on YouTube to see what I mean.
Oh I don’t mean they need to contest every seat that’s an unrealistic standard. But they certainly aren’t going to be a real choice until they have election infrastructure in every state. So we’re looking at about 100 elections of varying offices. And yeah, that takes time to build. Showing up in the last 6 months of the presidential campaign every 4 years is not how you get elected. AOC and others have shown that mainstream democrats are vulnerable in some of those seats that aren’t usually contested. And yeah you’re going to get gerrymandered out of seats a few times until you have a large enough group in the state legislature.
Saying it’s too much work to expect for a third party is just ridiculous. Nobody is going to just hand you a victory on the national stage.
But they certainly aren’t going to be a real choice until they have election infrastructure in every state.
Infrastructure costs money and manpower. Money tends to come from people looking to buy political favors. You can’t dole out political favors if you’re not in power. So power entrenches itself, with a single party dominating a particular seat by way of a patronage system.
And yeah, that takes time to build.
It has been built. Show me a state and I’ll show you a Green Party chapter. But it also decays without reinforcement. And it decays rapidly when the party becomes a scapegoat for deficiencies in one of the Big Two.
We see this with Libertarians as well. Every time the GOP loses, they take a big chunk of blame. People lose enthusiasm as they start getting yelled at by MAGA psychos accusing them of being Deep State agents of the Dem Party. Etc, etc. And eventually, they fold back into the GOP, rather than solidifying as their own party, when the GOP big dollar donors entice them into the tent again.
I suspect that’s what we’ll see with Greens. A mix of public shaming and private bribing will reincorporate them into the Dem Party where they can be more easily controlled.
To be fair the Greens have made a massive mistake with Jill Stein. They aren’t going to be the big third party that eventually breaks through unless they seriously reform. But no, a chapter in every state is not the infrastructure you need. Not beyond the most reductive meaning at any rate. You need to be a household name. You need to have been present in the state level political scene already. Election infrastructure is hundreds of people showing up every day to make millions of calls. Thousands of volunteers papering neighborhoods. Supporting PACs and local relationships to generate endorsements. A hundred members who meet once a month isn’t going to cut it.
Can’t, Democrats practice party suppression.
Eh, First Past the Post is party suppression, tbh. When the math pushes us towards two parties, a third party is always at the cost of some other party that is nominally “on the same side”.
How dare one political party oppose another political party! It completely flies in the face of what an election is supposed to be about. /s
Blocking ballot access is anti Democratic.
People talk about it all the time. Ron Paul was a household name. People we’re talking about RFK JR a year ago. People were talking about 3rd parties due to Biden’s stance on Palestine. People were talking about it after that first debate. All that’s fine, but it only makes the two main parties sweat within 30 days of election. That’s when all the “throwing your vote away” rhetoric ramps up.
Rather than doing better, working harder, or standing on better policy to turn out the 35% of people who don’t vote, it’s easier to vilify 1% of the people who do. That’s a problem.
Bet non of those people vote in local elections.
If you give up and vote for Democrats or Republican’s: -you are voting for putting people in prison for marijuana. -You are voting for a party that will pretend to care only to watch key legislation die because 2 senators said “no”, despite being from the party that claimed to want the change. -You vote for 2 more years of a locked government. There is no solution to the problems the 2 parties have created by voting for either of them. Nothing ever gets permanently better under either Democrat or Republican. They are the problem. -Don’t use Geordi to support your ruling class. Geordi comes from a world that got rid of boomer parties and they run the freaking galaxy.
you are voting for putting people in prison for marijuana.
Harris has made Cannabis legalization a campaign promise.
You are voting for a party that will pretend to care only to watch key legislation die because 2 senators said “no”, despite being from the party that claimed to want the change.
You are literally complaining about democracy here. If you want more “yes” votes, elect more Democrats.
You vote for 2 more years of a locked government. There is no solution to the problems the 2 parties have created by voting for either of them. Nothing ever gets permanently better under either Democrat or Republican. They are the problem.
Democrats bring progress, and Republicans bring regression. I don’t see how not voting is a solution to this problem. If you want progress, vote for the people who bring it.
Don’t use Geordi to support your ruling class. Geordi comes from a world that got rid of boomer parties and they run the freaking galaxy.
Star Trek isn’t real.
You are literally complaining about democracy here. If you want more “yes” votes, elect more Democrats.
The last 20 years prove otherwise. Not only could they not pass Bidens’ BBB agenda with both houses in 2021, but they couldn’t pass universal healthcare or codify Roe with a super-majority in 2009. The only major legislative achievement of the Democrats since the 90s was passing a Republican-designed healthcare plan. That’s not democracy, it’s disfunction.
Democrats bring progress, and Republicans bring regression.
LMAO, no. The social safety net is a fraction of the size it was 40 years ago, wealth inequality is at record highs, and housing is unaffordable for half of Americans. That’s not just from Democrats failure to bring change either; Bill Clinton did as much to gut welfare and deregulate Wallstreet as any Republican. At their best, the Democrats slow the rate of regression, and even that is far from a given.
If you can’t see daylight between the parties, and hold that they are identical rather than one being markedly less awful than the other (note: less awful, they still have are awful in their way), then you are as annoying as the people who were screaming back in 2021 that anyone who wasn’t voting Biden in 2024 is a monster (please, tell me again how criticizing Biden is the worst thing I can do to keep Trump out of office). Y’all are catastrophizing so hard that you’ve forgotten how to build political power, and are relying on big orgs to do it for you.
Your frustration with the system is valid, but you’re missing the point. The time to argue about the rules of the game is not in the middle of the game. Between rounds the rules should absolutely be examined, changed, and balanced for the better, but once the game has begun you can only play within what has already been established.
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To be fair, Kamala is our third Presidential candidate this year. 😂
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No, no, no! It’s not the systemic oppression of the poor and PoCs that’s the issue. Or that basic civil rights can be voted and legislated away by a fascist minority. It’s because a handful of people don’t personify the system’s problems into Trump’s facade.
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No, because I actually understand how capitalism works and know that screaming at the most marginalized people to “VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO” won’t change anything even in the face of genocide.
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Yes I do, now cry about how your moral universe will smite me while Kamala bombs kids.
Its just fucking wild watching the pro-gun lot declare Kamala and Joe Biden to be committing genocide when you know for a fact that they’d have a meltdown if you applied the exact same logic to Walmart or the owner of the gun the child shot the school up with.
Don’t get me wrong, America needs to stop selling Israel weapons, other than Iron dome related and very limited defence stuff. Thats the road map to peace in the middle east right there.
But I could watch them try and take the moral high ground over it all day. They literally have no idea they’re doing it either:
"No, clearly they know that, ultimately, many of those weapons will be used to commit atrocities, including killing children. A brief look at the numbers shows it to be inevitable. As such, any government that allows to sale of these things is also culpable and has to put an end to it.
Again, not idea they’re doing it, at all.
But hey, who knows, maybe the other guy, the one in bed with the gun-toting too psycho-christians, maybe he’ll “turn their back on Israel.”
Maybe i got you wrong and if so i apologise but i had to get that off my chest all the same.
Haha the audacity Western libs never ceases to amaze me. You’re comparing a genocide to a tragic but at all equivalent. American children are not endanger of being erased from existence. And most of the shootings are driven by the right wing fascism in your own government and society.
Both agree on the point and the proper meme format
Nah dawg. Check my post history (don’t actually), I’ve been advocating (and been getting heavily downvoted) for supporting third party candidates for years
Third parties in the presidential campaign only allow people to vote in a non tactical way. If they actually want to do anything they should start on square one which is to get a single candidate into congress.
The strategy for presidential campaigns should always be to run, get the message across, watch polling, withdraw, endorse until they are big enough. When big enough then open up coalition talks and affect policy by promoting voter reform and couple of key policies.
Doing just the presidency is good for publicity but incredibly inadequate.
Or the democrats could deal with the fact that there is a substantial group of people that don’t trust them or the republicans. Better not talk about why that might be right?
I think there is definitely political space for a left wing populist anti establishment party, you can either do it with Bundnis Sahra Wagenknecht type of party proper anti corruption social democrat or green.
Unfortunately the Green party is who everyone talks about but there are other third parties, and especially ones that participate in local elections more. I am interested in reading more about the Bundnis Sahra Wagenknecht party style though, thank you for referencing it.
This is not a post about supporting third parties, which is still pointless anyway. This is a post about third parties themselves doing nothing in non-election years. If you aren’t a third party candidate this post isn’t about you.
It is about them, just not in a positive way.
BTW, for some reason I have them tagged as “Tankie Dumpo”, no idea why.
And you are no closer to accomplishing your goals…
There is a reason socialists in the US vote for the democratic party: we have influence in participation and have been granted concessions.
socialists in the US vote for the democratic party
If you’re voting for the democratic party then you are not a socialist. Politics aren’t just a feeling you have or something you say you believe in, they’re actions that you take.
I didn’t realize putting Marx in your name entitled you to the ability of gatekeeping socialism from everybody who doesn’t live in your imaginary socialist world and instead have to deal with the political realities of the system they are operating in.
Imagine for a moment that you are a pacifist. But then you join the military, go overseas, and kill hundreds of people. Should you get to call yourself a pacifist? Of course not!
Same theory here. If you think socialist thoughts, speak socialist words, and then support capitalist parties - then you my friend are a capitalist. There are plenty of ways to do socialist praxis within a political system where the electral system has been entirely captured by capitalist interests, so don’t you waste your tears crying about “gatekeeping”.
I don’t support capitalism.
I live in a capitalist world and currently only have a choice between capitalism that can be negotiated with, or full blown fascist flavored capitalism.
If you hate liberalism more than you do fascism, you aren’t a socialist.
Liberalism and fascism are two sides of the same coin, like a “good cop” and a “bad cop,” the only thing that distinguished the fascism of mid 20th century Europe was that it was being applied to Europeans, rather than its typical targets.
But that doesn’t actually matter in this case, because both of the options on offer for Americans have participated enthusiastically in bringing fascism to American communities. The Dems are the ones currently backing Israel’s genocide and escalation, the Dems are the ones who built the cages and the Dems are the ones currently throwing kids in them.
Biden could shoot someone on fifth avenue and you liberals would still think that he’s somehow better than Trump.
I am confused because Trump made the comment regarding committing murder on 5th Avenue as explanation of his cult’s loyalty, but you are claiming that is a Biden thing. I’m also unsure of the relevance, seeing that Biden isn’t one of the two choices you are being given to elected as your next president…
I’m regards to Palestine, there are two options: the democrats and working towards a peace deal, or Trump, who wants to finish the job of eradicating Palestinians. Voting for anybody but Harris is a vote for total eradication in this case, and I’m not going to let you pretend that isn’t the case if we are to continue this dialog.
My goal is to never vote for the Dems or Republicans after 2016 so thanks for telling me I’m no closer but I think I am.
Knowing that I’ve made that commitment to myself let’s me vote for the candidates I actually want, without fear of “causing the worse of the two” to win
Pretending a spoiler candidate has a chance of winning and getting zero percent of what you want doesn’t make you more moral than the people who vote for the furthest left candidate with the ability to win and getting 5% of what you wanted.
We have an obligation and a moral duty to fight fascism at the ballot box. Voting for a fascists’ spoiler because the spoiler pretends they are on your side is not strength on your part, it is cowardice.
We have an obligation and a moral duty to fight fascism at the ballot box
Nah the whole thing is a joke. The Dems are corrupt but the Republicans are worse, so I feel a moral obligation to support neither.
If you admit that Republicans are worse, than you have to admit that voting for spoiler candidates who help elected Republicans is the worse option than just voting democratic.
You can’t admit that Republicans are worse than use what little political capital you have to help them while pretending you are more moral than those of us who vote democratic.
You are just sniffing your own farts and pretending you are better than those of us who you leave behind to actually make the decision to help as many we are given the ability to.
Your point would make a lot more sense if the continuous “Dems vs Republicans” for decades didn’t bring us to this point. But alas, we’re in a bad spot where “this election” is the “most important” one yet. Yeah right lmao. Cya at the ballet box
No, you won’t see me at the ballot box. You will be getting high off the false morality injection voting for some dingbat gives you, while I will be trying to prevent a fascist with intentions of being a day one dictator from taking power.
So you’re the kind of person staring at a forest but all you can make out is a tree. I do imagine that kind of willful ignorance helps to comfort you. The reality is the best you will ever influence, while feigning ignorance to how things actually work, is a tree. Maybe one day you will open your eyes and recognize the potential influence for change you could have harnessed if your kind attempted to constructively change things within the constraints we were born into rather than cutting off the face of your allies while being or feigning ignorance in reality.
Nah I’m the kind of person who realizes a constant vote for the “lesser evil” is a slow slip into facism, and I would rather rip off the bandaid instead.
Nah I’m the kind of person who realizes a constant vote for the “lesser evil” is a slow slip into facism, and I would rather rip off the bandaid instead.
“I want fascism as fast as possible” is a hell of a take, but one that seems frighteningly common amongst .ml users.
The Green Party was never to be taken seriously by anyone that knows better. It’s always been a spoiler party. This is evident in the fact that seemingly none of the Green Party candidates do jack shit three years out of every four. And when the election cycle comes. They just projectile-shit left and right depending on who’s paying.
Not to be taken seriously as having a chance to win is different than representing the views of a sub-group of Americans accurately.
We see plenty of sports teams lose year after year and don’t ask why people are still fans, do we? Their values haven’t changed just because their side loses, they still believe that’s the right team to back.
While third party votes wont make a third party candidate win the presidency, it absolutely has an effect on public opinion and discussion, evidenced by how many of these stories are coming out each day bashing third party voters.
It seems absurd to me that democrats think third party voters will respond to attacks on their character, when the reason they wont vote democrat is because of the character democrats display.
I don’t know how many sports teams that are taking Russian money and exist to essential fuck over the entire sport that would continue to have fans.
Oh… and politics isn’t a fucking sport.
Turns out its not hard to hide the source of money, and politicians need money to run campaigns. The democrats and republicans both have their fair share of illicit donations, that’s entirely legal in America. I don’t really see your point? They all shouldn’t do it.
Also, you seem to think the only third party is the green party, which is interesting.
Russia has made no secret of wanting to install Trump in the white hose. They’re paying Shill Stein to spoil the election for the democrats.
What more do you need? I’m specifically talking about The Green Party.
Russia spends money on more than just the presidential race. They and their oligarchs donate to both democrats and republicans from local to federal elections.
Israel does the same thing as well, they donate to whoever is pro-Israel, and campaign against anyone anti-Israel.
So again, why is that a problem for the Green party but not the democrats or republicans?
If Americans don’t want foreigners to affect their election, don’t make it legal to do so then.
If
Americansthe global south don’t wantforeignersAmericans to affect their election, don’t make it legal to do so then.Does it help you see how idiotic and backwards you’re being if I switch out a few nouns in your statement?
Other countries have not made it legal for outside nations to lobby in their countries. That’s an American thing.
What is your point again? You can turn my statement into an ad lib and call me stupid?
I’ve yet to see any evidence to support the accusation that democrats are taking Russian money. Democrats also aren’t also using Trump’s lawyers in defense of accusatory cases against them.
This whatabotism of yours is disruptive to the topic. I’m staying within the wheelhouse of the discussion. You, are not.
If you want to discuss the corruption of ALL political parties, start a new post on it. But I’m not about entertaining people that wish to derail the conversation with bOtH siDeS rhetoric.
Okay well prove me wrong, wheres all the evidence that the green party is taking Russian money. All i’ve seen anyone post is a picture of the presidential nominee at a table with Putin. Is there anything else?
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Not to mention the significant Russian ties for the Green Party and the clear spoiler effect.
Daily reminder:
Jill disappears on November 6th and reappears 3 years and 10 months later. Like clockwork.
Jill disappears on November 6th and reappears 3 years and 10 months later
Good money in it. Russian rubles too.
Do you think she started out earnest and got co-opted?
Has she been a willing accomplice since day one?To sit at a fancy gala dinner with the very definition of what the hard right salivates to be, then to declare that both parties are the same… that is something… that takes some fucking chutzpah.
The hard right doesn’t want to be like Russia, they don’t want America involved in any country really.
This picture is also near meaningless, but feel free to debate that.
I see you didn’t watch the Tucker Carlson in Russia videos.
Well it looks like this one’s as good as any:
I’m voting party for socialism and liberation and you can too!
They’re running Claudia de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to Israel.
Psl is active outside of presidential elections, active outside of elections in general and is expanding!
I support third parties but I’d not vote for them because then the vote doesn’t count. Voting in local elections is another story though and especially in safe state elections. Third parties should force parties to the negotiating table for running as a coalition when they have enough support.
The votes count. I know because I worked elections and saw votes counted and then saw the tally released by my local election board that reflected those votes.
How exactly should third parties accumulate enough support to force the two main parties to the table if people don’t vote for them?
You do, just not during the presidency.
How come?
In our electoral system, a vote for a third-party is a waste, and any resources dumped into them is a bigger waste.
A socialist is going to prefer Harris over Trump, but by voting a third party instead of Democrat they’re effectively supporting Trump. When the election comes down to the wire, they’ll be the ones responsible for a second Trump term.
This has already happened. People voting for the Green party over Al Gore are the reason we got 8 years of Bush.
I don’t mind the odd asshole who refuses to play ball, so far up their own ass they think they’re so special and that the spoiler effect doesn’t apply to their vote.
If that is, they’re silent about it.
The second they start advocating for others to join them in their stupidity, they go from a harmless idiot to an active threat to democracy, exactly as bad as the MAGAt they likely are.
Maybe you can’t speak for what socialists prefer. It’s really odd to say it’s third party voters’ fault your preferred candidate didn’t win rather than your candidates fault they did not attract enough voters.
If everyone left of the Overton window promise to vote for the Democrats regardless of what policies the Democrats propose, what prevents the Democrats from moving to the right?
All the other elections every year. The party pays attention to the local and state elections. It matters tremendously. And in the mean time you are improving your local government that effects your everyday life.
Voting 3rd in the presidential election is a waste if the party hasn’t spent any time building support in existing government structures of power though.
Does a third party have some special avenue around an obstructionist house and senate that we all haven’t seen so far?
People can vote for the candidates they like locally even if they don’t like the top of the ticket. I didn’t say anything about down ballot elections.
And you still don’t have any answer for my question.
No… THAT is my answer. You asked what would prevent the Dems from sliding right and that was my answer. It’s the same thing that caused the Republicans to slide right.
You have the example in the Tea party movement to see how it effectively changes the party when down ballot voting shifts.
That’s how it’s done. There’s recent proof of it.
PS: You didn’t answer MY question.
Nobody said that a third party would win the presidency, so that’s a weird question. The answer is no, but you already knew that.
The tea party is a great example of Republicans listening to their base. Democrats should do the same. I don’t see anyone telling the far right they HAVE to vote for Republicans even if they run a liberal candidate. Democrats don’t own the votes of the Left either.
Voting for progressives down ballot is not a real way to influence the party, and I don’t believe you really think it is. Also, like I said, many progressives do that.
It’s just another line from the DNC to tell the progressives to shut up. When Dems start treating progressives like Republicans treat MAGA (worship, adoration, and fear) then you can expect that progressives will vote for Dems at the top of the ticket.
So you are knowingly throwing your vote away then. Ok. If your voice matters so little, no need to engage on a forum. Look in the mirror and ask what the point of wasting your moments literally telling everyone you don’t value your own vote.
Worthless…
My vote isn’t a waste. It is counted like any other.
My vote for psl isn’t support for trump. It doesn’t count towards trumps total. Would you say the people unwilling to vote democrat are more responsible for the events of a trump term than the people who didn’t vote at all? Than the democrat party for running a bad campaign? Than the administrative regime that puts its plans into action?
You are mistaken about bush v gore. The Supreme Court installed bush and the Florida recount wouldn’t have changed the result because it wasn’t the whole state recount needed to actually flip the electoral college. Gore won Florida but the recount wasn’t in enough precincts to show that. I have no love for the greens, but they’re not why we got bush.
By voting for a third party you’re worse than someone who doesn’t vote, because you use resources that could be directed to literally anything else and be more effective. Taking all that third party campaign to a casino money and betting it all on a double-zero is more responsible use of the money than spending it on a campaign that will serve no purpose but wasting resources and pulling voters from a candidate that may actually win.
The only excuses to support a third party candidate are being an idiot or a bad actor intentionally trying to spoil the vote. Which one are you?
This presidential election is not the time to be pushing the PSL party. Even if they were much more popular than they are now, they aren’t on enough states ballots to get to 270 even if they won every state they’re in.
Focus on getting PSL candidates into house and Senate seats and making them more mainstream, not taking votes away from Democrats when the alternative is still Trump.
If winning the presidential election was all that mattered you’d have a good point.
My vote for psl doesn’t take a vote away from democrats because I would not vote for the democrats.
Oh yeah, you’re the guys throwing nails on the road outside my wife’s school once a month. Hard pass.
May I see the school and nails?
E: I have looked and cannot find anything on news sites or social media that references this. If you have a way for me to learn about my chosen party sabotaging a road in front of a school please provide it.
