UPD 2023-12-05, 09:45: Thanks to first responders. I’ve got better answers than expected, both in constructiveness and mood and no less in an acceptance even if not agreeing on somethings. I will not be answering each and every from this point after, but may occasionally answer some.
Things I’ve learned – we are where we are ;) Belief in federated and etc… is strong here. I wasn’t blocked, banned and (sadly – as I like to kick back) nobody atack’ed me personaly :))). Lemmies-nsfw are not on defensive emotional mode or only right people happened to see my post.
Funny note: hadn’t noticed restored full upvotes/downvotes functionality right away as now it it rightly limited to channel-comunity subscibed readers. I wasn’t subscriber of c/asklemmynsfw, only occasional reader :) – so I had my minute of “wait it’s back? wtf, where?” :))) Thanks to devs and mods for that upgrade.
ORIGINAL POST:
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Got a bit tired of limited content here on lemmy nsfw, same several posters, almost empty chanels (communities), almost none somewhat valuable discussions.
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Then add the lost ability to sort anything by upvotes/downvotes and even if downvotes back, no existing functionality to sort by votes within the chanel (community).
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And on top of that, if you take random (non tech.) user, it’s too hard for them to understand how to begin to use lemmy – I recomend someone, they try it 5-15minutes to get onboard and lose it along the way.
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Jumped recently back to reddit, to check the things – I was among thirst wave of exodus, even removed my (nsfw reading) account there. I installed an app and got back there in 5 minutes (even while creating new account), and right away got it all – plenty of everything and full functionality. // P.S. and yes, I know that all technological diference stuff about distributed versus centralized lemmy vs reddit. That’s not a question.
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From point where my question stands there is no difference between centralized reddit mods moderation (you may call it authoritarism, dictatorship or elite driven *cracy – whatever) and lemmynsf (beeing just one specific server) mods ruling here. It’s one against one, both centralized no more and no less ~ same.
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So whats the deal? I’m begining to lose my understanding why stay on lemmynsf?
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Especially after quite clear hints that readers do not matter much here and it is not for convenience of them at all. Not clear if mods are eager to create env where only posters stroke (jerk) each other or they care about the readers and content self moderation (up to limits set by each channel-comunity rules ofcourse) but to the readers likings, or is this like instagram where some supposedly chatty “influesomethings” constantly spam in their own channels and others either follow, either not to their liking.
P.S. marking this as nsfw, as my question is only about lemmynsfw server and it’s comunity, readers, posters and mods opinions about env and arguments to stay/leave here. P.P.S. numbering each question description point – as each of them could be a separate discussion. I think it will be easyer to discuss it with less emotions, more with arguments and opinions on each or several items separately. ,
P.P.P.(is it enough of P’s :)S. Oh and feel free to atack personaly – I’ll try to enjoy it, but don’t cry then after if that’s your only argument or opinion. ;). Hints on correct english are wellcome, it gladly will be fixed - I’m non native speaker. Thanks.
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You’re free to use what you want. No one here is going to stop you. I don’t agree with your conclusions, but that’s why I’ll stay off of Reddit and you might not.
- I don’t agree that it’s easy and good. Reddit is convenient for sure, but the native apps and Web interfaces are shitty to use: loused with ads, attention stealers, sponsored/affiliate content and tracking. Only way I could use Reddit even back when is through one of the third party apps Reddit decided it’s too good for, and which has ported to Lemmy.
And if you’re in it for the porn, I’d argue there are much much better sites for it than Reddit, in both usability and quality. But if you want the specific type of porn that thrives on Reddit, you will need to go there.
As for myself, I kinda enjoy the Tumblr vibe in some of the comms and I definitely enjoy not having revenge porn, amateur guitar playing, spambots, desperate/unwilling fledgling OF marketing, bot war of the week, AND tracked ads littering my porn feed.
Lemmy and lemmynsfw are tiny platforms just starting up, it’s gonna be at least a well funded years to develop them into something resembling a consumer grade platform, and it’s not entirely clear it has to or wants to.
If you want something with convenience and polish, Lemmy probably isn’t it, and you’ll be better off on one of the others. If you want to be part of building and developing something unique, being an active part in shaping our collective future, there is a corner on Lemmy to contribute to.
// Thanks for your input and I’m aligned with your opinion on the UI/UX of reddits official app and website UI ugliness and shitification level.
As for the better/worse nsfw sites – reddit or lemmynsfw (only in aspect of nsfw and ignoring other content communities, as was the point of my original question) are interesting for me only as user generated original (preferably non pro or semi pro) content and as user sorted nsfw content tops and ofcourse discussions on/or spicy texts/questions posts. E.g. like in “here is my boob, guys ;)” vote me up/down. And in like – I’m checking the top ass in allfours this month or top short couple fck video – and I mean real top, voted up/down by community users. And in like “Someone saw a boob, should a second one be shown ;)?” discussions with all the dirty jokes, hints or serious answers, or “Here is my summer adventure nsfw version story” floated to the top.
And you know what is common between all these? It’s a community sorted content. Because for unsorted, promoted content – I agree with you – we have a better specialised sites in the wild, with whom neither lemmynsfw, neither even reddit will ever succeed to compete. Imho their strength should be comunity driven. I’m kinda starting to miss this on lemmynsfw (and even on some other, especially hard lefties dominated, lemmy servers too). But what are or would be lemmy servers or reddit without that? Insta clones? That is what I’m interested to discuss in and find out. What is the vision? I mean except technological one, a distributed, non central authority and shit, servers – here we are clear, it should be good from ideological and control point of view. But what else?
I would not recommend getting too attached to NSFW Reddit. They’re trying to have an IPO next year and clearly have a history of making decisions that affect their bottom line.
Most advertisers don’t want to be associated with NSFW. Reddit is caught between their users, who clearly want it, and the $. The problem is that without the NSFW users, there’s a whole lot less people to advertise to.
Maybe NSFW survives the IPO, but it seems to me like just a matter of time before control of the company falls to someone who removes it.
It seems like a lot of your issues are specific to this instance. There are other NSFW instances you can try too. Honestly you’re probably best off using a few.
// Thanks, that is a good point to remind.
I agree, reddit still has (and probably will always have) the risk of beeing thumblr’ized and face deNFSWcation by its owners to sell their shares better. This part of content and users could be cut any time off.
If you know some, I’d like more more of your input on other nsfw lemmy instances. List some, you know, which have most users and content or any you would suggest as alternative or addition to lemmynsfw. Thanks.
- no third party android apps
RIP
Hard to not agree on this solid argument. That is indead the most blocking feature to use reddit without browsing frustration.
You can still use 3rd party apps if you patch them with Revanced. I still Use RIF, and it works just like it did before the shutdown.
thanks but id rather eat shit.
the apps i was using have all migrated to lemmy.
I use reddit for porn still. But I also use this, the communities are slowly growing, and we admins are trying to get user engagement up and toxicity down.
We’ve already brought back downvotes, just limiting them to communities you’ve been subscribed to for a week.
Additionally the admins here are here “in the trenches” so to speak wayyy more than reddit admins. If you report a spambot or someone who’s being incredibly toxic the response will be much quicker.
We also are listening to what our users want, and we do our best to align what we do with what they want, while still being effective admins, like with the upvote changes.
Instead of fully switching to one or the other, I recommend a hybrid approach, and also, if anyone here posts on reddit, maybe post the same post here too, or instead. That way we can get even more people posting.
All in all, sustainable organic growth takes time. And we are literally a decade behind reddit in age, so it makes sense to not fully commit to lemmynsfw yet.
We’re not as user or feature rich as reddit, but the lemmy devs are working hard, and we even have devs working on changes for our particular instance. Lemmy and lemmynsfw are getting better and more users day by day. It’ll just take some time.
// Thanks to mods and dev people for upgrades
Especially thanks for bringing back full functionality of up/down votes. Limiting it to comunities was the first thing I myself sugested, then someone reasoned for disabling, in one of the recent letting steam off posts. That is how votes should have worked from the very begining.
I’ll note that this all fuss was avoidable, temporary solution was quite unnesessry and could have been avoided if not only posters (who are the louder beeings compared to readers) where taken into account. Thanks anyway, for atleast letting to get a steam out and not for bloking or removing posts and comments which where against.
For as the old saying goes ;) Take my features once, shame on you. Take my features twise, shame on me – if not starting to look where the grass is greener. Bare beliefts in ideology about federated and shit, will not cover ass log if things become crippled compared to alternatives.
While I agree with you that the community limited downvotes was always the best option, the reason we disabled them at that time is we had several creators say they were fed up with the level of downvotes and toxicity and were on the verge of leaving, and the community upvote solution didn’t exist so we had to act fast.
Afterwards we saw a significant drop in the level of toxicity and an immediate increase in original content after we disabled downvotes.
Thanks to fellow admin xaeg for crancking out that change so quickly! Speaking as a dev, working in a newish language and in a new code environment is hard, and he cranked that out really quickly.
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Oh yes sorry, deleted
I think for me the main reason was mobile access. When all the reddit stuff happened one of the main thing that seemed to be staying is that 3rd party API would not have access to content marked as nsfw, which makes using an app (I was using Infinity) really weird.
I don’t know if it’s possible or not today, but that’s the main thing I’m considering when staying on Lemmy (SFW or NSFW for that matter; as Infinity looks like it’s not working anymore, and Reddit will be going only harder through its enshittification phase to go public)
Agree, that’s a solid undeniable argument. Enshitification hit reddit hard, especially its public API’s and consequently the third party aps.
I guess it comes down to why you personally left reddit in the first place. I don’t think anyone here would argue the content is more plentiful. If you left because you didn’t like reddit’s business practice and wanted to boycott them for essentially banning 3rd party apps, then limiting your use to “sticky necessary” is fine imo. I still go back for some small communities that don’t have a presence elsewhere, but I don’t browse /r/all or even my frontpage like I used to.
// Thanks for joining discussion.
Left because I didn’t liked what reddit did to long established communities and their mods, during the “F**k Spez” event. Guess my main reason was their (reddits) intervention into the communities freedoms of how, when and with what tools do they allow users to browse, and after the fall down of lots of communities mods (when they tried to make communities private or nsfw). That is clear that growing communities or niche one’s are small. That’s not a matter if something else is given. But now the same alike shit happened on lemmynsfw, disabling default and common functionality. That made me think - ok, so then what’s the diference, and content there is plentiful more on another side.
Freedom was the reason to stay. Definetly there should be other reasons too which others have. Interested in to hear or discus them.
I’m going to be 1000 PERCENT, COMPLETELY HONEST, okay? Kinda long preamble, here, but stay with me:
First of all, I am here because I got banned from Reddit. I got banned from Reddit because of a stupid, momentary decision. Someone abusively clicked the “get help for this user” button on me, because they disagreed with something I said. So I hit the same button, on their post. They didn’t get punished for abusing the system. I got a LIFETIME BAN for retaliating, in kind.
I am unwilling to risk trying to create another account, because there are other people in my house, on my IP address, who might catch an IP ban. These are people I love, with multi-year-old Reddit accounts. I won’t risk it. Not even using a VPN, to make a new account. The risk of accidentally touching the site without the VPN engaged is too great. If I ever change my static IP, I might make a new Reddit account. However, the entire situation made me realize just how EXTREME the Reddit admin power tripping has become.
I don’t want to have to be under their thumb. But, sure enough, if you fuck with Reddit, you have to live by their terms. You can’t fight City Hall. If they want you gone, you’re gone. If they want to say “ackshually, starting from the first of next month, we’re not allowing NSFW content,” they can do that.
More to the point, they WILL eventually do that. That day WILL come. When they kick everyone off of /r/gonewild and every other NSFW part of Reddit, for morality and/or advertising revenue related reasons.
We HAVE to have a plan, for when that day comes. It’s not just about fapping. It’s about freedom. It’s about the oldschool internet that I grew up with, not being eaten away by commercial and political forces. We have to slowly and patiently build a community outside of the Reddit sphere of influence, so they can’t just wipe out the big chunk of uncensored, truly free internet that they currently have lordship over.
Well, :) lets hope they do it, trip (stumble) on a power trip on nsfw and a new max exodus will come here to grow the land of federated and etc. good shit. Ofcourse and on another leg, then we’ll have an “ethernal september” here. But that’s what internet crowd is.
How about users not berating other users for not using Linux or saying Linux is shit for noobs ( can you show me a single Linux distro one can use without using Terminal ever ? and find a distri where I can work without finding additional software for tasks like editing a document where I can add picture , paragraph specing or use macros , xlookup etc)
How about user having more general and common interactions.
Your English is fine.
Honestly these entire feelings-based positions are a little absurd in my view. Lemmy is not going to be a viable reddit competitor for a very long time yet. Not only do we not have any Fediverse functionality, we don’t even have fully polished reddit functionality yet.
This is a long haul project, not some “wow, fixing the internet quick enough to finish by the time I’m out of college!” project.
I still use reddit. Mainly for the video game subs, it’s still the best place on the internet to ask a random game question. Because that’s what it’s good at, not because I’ve “picked my side” and need to see my enemies destroyed.
If you want to use it … just fucking use it. Stop setting up bullshit, arbitrary purity tests for yourself. It’s juvenile.
// Thanks for the answer and encouragement on english.
As for to answer you – that was not a purity question. That is more of a question (at least for me) why not to ditch this or why to wait more and for what? What are this servers communities about - insta style follows or reddit style user driven communities (facilitated by mods). To check if my expectations are inline with local vision.
One counterpoint is that you can use different interfaces to get to Reddits NSFW stuff without going to Reddit.
NSFWbrowser.com would be my recommendation
// That is a nice tool to browse open (non private) comunities anonimously, indeed. Thanks for a hint.
I know it and have tried random alternative ways too. It is just, that for me reading is also voting. I mean if you want community sorted content then you cast your votes, to contribute to it all, too – it’s part of a browsing, reading process. Voting in this use case is esential, but without working account that is impossible (on reddit, anonimously) and/or half assed crippled (here on lemmynsfw) even with having an account.
Maybe im missing something in the reddit app, but i want to sort my home feed. Also, i dont want r/kidsfallingover popping in my feed as recomendations whilst browsing nsfw stuff
I don’t know about the Reddit app nowadays, but back in the day there was a way to set up like… lists? Might have had a different name. Basically, put all the subreddits you want to see stuff from in a list and click through to only view posts from those subreddits, sort it however you want. Forgive me if that doesn’t exist anymore!
Not advocating for Reddit, I won’t be heading back anytime soon, but I do understand the desire.
//Thanks for your input.
That’s a good point you reminded. Never have liked the official reddit app and I still think it’s garbage compared to several best other third parties apps it had. I like the variety of lemmy apps. Reddit limiting apps was one of the reasons they have been left. As for the ads – I’m looking at pi-hole right now. So at least at home I would not see ads while on reddit mobile app (while on wifi). Also it’s not a problem for me to setup home vpn – to be able to browse nsfw without ads on mobile aps (while away). Just as any experienced IT guy I’m a bit lazy to do more than minimum nesesary and to this day Firefox+uBlock was quite enough for me.
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Upd.: changed “have, is” to “had, was”, as it is non issue anymore. Both downvotes and upvotes are working now for channel-community subscribers.
Orig. comment: Lemmynsfw had disabled downvotes on whole server, people can’t sink down lesser content, they now can only vote up or ignore. Their argument was that votes are global and other (than channel subscribers) people can vote. From that point it was more like instagram flow, at most. Not a reddit like, readers votes moderated-sorted content.
I think it’s a fair question. I’m only here because I want options besides Reddit for NSFW content. I also don’t think Reddit has done enough to preserve access to NSFW content or third-party apps (and their official app is terrible for me), so I would like to help build other options.
Unfortunately, Reddit is still a much more popular option. People don’t have many good reasons to choose LemmyNSFW for now as long as Reddit still has most things people want:
- More content
- More users and posters
- More variety in communities, especially for niche or very specific content
- More mainstream support
- Familiar tools and interface (as the most popular option)
I would say it’s “hard to choose” Lemmy if you don’t care about having alternatives to Reddit that might be healthier.
It doesn’t get any better though if no one tries to make other options exist, so I hope that posting and commenting will help other people choose LemmyNSFW in the future if Reddit makes more unpopular decisions.
About your 7th Point: I think readers are still very important here. I and others consider lurkers/readers in a few ways:
- I still check upvote/downvote ratio on my posts, before and after the recent changes
- I read every comment and check for moderation
- I compress my images so it’s cheaper to download for mobile readers
- I also upload and link to full-quality copies for desktop users
- This is also a lot more work for me just to help who will see my post for just 2-3 seconds
- Moderators and administrators regularly discuss how to respect everyone’s needs, not just creators
I think change can be hard, but I hope you can recognize that the moderators and administrators are open to trying something new, just like how using Lemmy is something new. There are even decisions I disagree with, but the alternative of being solely dependent on Reddit is still worse.
From the readers standpoint – do anybody realy care if poster have checked votes he got on a post? Who of the readers care? That is only a posters problem or advantage that his post missed or hit readers likings. Him checking it or not is not taking care about readers, but taking care about his next posts popularity at most. As for mods discusions on readers convenience - maybe they are happening on some other verse, where readers (here on lemmynsfw) are not asked or taken into account by giving a vote. If I’m wrong, corect me by pointing to such public discusion with public votes.
On openess of mods, well … … by me, the lemmynsfw admins, contrary to your saying, did the oposite of trying something new. They tried the same old – lets limit users abilities, lets limit expression of opinions, lets remove downvotes. And the argument is as old as earth – we will make some of you “feel” more secure, let the snowflakes rule it all (at the cost of less freedom of opinions). History of encroaching enshitification is repeating, but now its here, perfectly federatedly distributed oh the irony one. I do not like the smell of that.
do anybody realy care if poster have checked votes he got on a post? Who of the readers care?
If readers vote and no one checks, there would be no point. I just look at what gets upvotes and try to post more of that type of content so that readers will have more posts to look through the next time they visit that they’re more likely to like (or if they don’t, they know to block that community and move on).
The popularity of my posts or the total number of funny Internet points is meaningless to me. I do not need it to be “popular” or “viral”, nor is Lemmy a good platform to try that (especially on LemmyNSFW, which is defederated by some other notable instances).
I personally gain nothing by posting; if anything, I’d rather by downloading more hentai instead of posting it myself. I only do this because I want other people to join me and share content so that I can eventually download their posts myself somewhere besides Reddit, which has only gotten worse at that.
pointing to such public discusion with public votes.
Public discussion with public votes is limited, but readers still retained the ability to comment with their disagreements in the official announcement posts and the follow-up poll leading up to relaxing downvote restrictions to community members:
- Semi-public - Is it worth having downvotes?
- An update on our community regarding downvotes
- [POLL] Allowing downvotes only to community members
Re: Downvotes
Freedom of expression is important, and is part of why you and I are here, but freedom cannot exist without some limits. Downvotes were disabled for a number of reasons, but the biggest one I could see was that some types of content get substantially downvoted despite being appropriate for their communities. How can members of that community express what they like if other, potentially uninvolved people, keep downvoting it?It’s not about “protecting snowflakes”, but instead, just making room for other communities and interests. No one’s asking you or anyone to go love every single fetish out there, just leave’em alone if you’re not interested.
For me, it has been a successful change. Content that fits in the communities I’m involved in continue to see better upvote counts, while content that doesn’t is seeing next to none (or even negative).
Re: Back To Original Topic
In my original post, I cited both reasons to go back to Reddit or stay on LemmyNSFW for NSFW content. I think we both know we disagree on the topic of downvotes, so let’s not get stuck on that. Is there anything else you wanted consider that we haven’t discussed?EDIT: Accidentally cut out my note about why votes matter and never added it back in. Fixed. EDIT2: Clarified “who of the readers care?”
And on a love or aknowldgement note for all the lemmy posters and mods, in old pirates harsh voice, a paraphrased song for you:
• You are my atention span, my only waste time • You make me vote when posts are gray • You’ll never know, shitheads, how much I read you • Please don’t take my features away
So dont take my features away … or I’ll kick you ;) Be a better reddit. Thanks.
I hear you (or to be exact, I see what you are writing :) ) about you thinking taking care about your readers. Thanks for the content if I have ever stumbled on yours and liked something. Don’t know, can’t check – there’s no such user functionality as to see own or others list of the things user voted up.
Anyway from a stand point of the reader it is still the same old – poster is taking care about current or future engagements thing. There is no option to folow the poster here (on lemmy), so (excuse me my french) shit do I care whose post do I see, I only want to see floated up ones and beeing able to vote up/down for them to sort naturaly by that particular comunities or global likings. The only thing posters can do to realy care about users, that would be do not repeat themselves and not to spam. All other things will sort them out naturaly without a special care.
As for the posts you have pointed to as the discussion with readers posts – well, … the first two are just “let them steam of” type of engagements, without a real vote by everyone. Decision about temporary measures were taken by mods only, they were hastly and single sided (posters snowflakes matter, all others … ergh … lets play for the posters). And I even understand that concern, no content – no readers comming. You have to take care about posters. But I didn’t felt that readers were counted as comunity members at all, this time. It was more of self jerk circle, we post – we matter, you don’t.
As for downvotes only for comunity members – I agree with you. That was my idea from the very start, that if global votes are somehow a problem for the posters and niche comunities, then the local (community limited) votes count is the solution. Hear me? (I mean you see me? :) – posters and comunities interest is taken in to account and readers interest in not taken out of the equation.
As for the freedom limits – If I have wanted another instagram, I have jumped on pixelfed. Lemmy is, or atleast began, as the better reddits alternative (a technologicaly better one) and, lets hope, users and content amount and quality of it all will overgrow them too.
I don’t think you need to know who I am or who is posting (and if you did, you should go elsewhere, as you noted). It’s enough that you and I are thinking about how votes fit in the community aspect of things (aka sorting things out “naturally” without a special care).
I mistook your stance on downvotes as being all or nothing - if we’re both on votes only being for community members (and I’m still open to putting it back to everyone if/when this instance is bigger), then we’re on the same page.
without a real vote by everyone
I do agree that it may have been hasty to enact the initial downvote restriction without any broader vote. I managed to get my input in, but I that was only on the ModCoord comm I linked you. There was some additional discussion on Matrix, but I only saw that after the fact. I only visit once or twice a day to post and take breaks when my life is busy, so I was also surprised to see the announcement when I came back. The second vote also didn’t include a “no restrictions” vote either, so I suppose that wasn’t an option they wanted to explore.
